Avraham Burg essay

[3boys4us]

This is a great essay by the former head of the Knesset as to why the current Israeli govt's. policies are failing.

....It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis are coming to understand this as they ask their children where they expect to live in 25 years. Children who are honest admit, to their parents' shock, that they do not know. The countdown to the end of Israeli society has begun......

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.08.29/oped3.html

Here is another article about the "security fence":

When Moayad Hussain faces Israel's vast new "security fence" toward the beginning of its meandering journey through the occupied territories - which the Israeli government envisages will end nearly 400 miles later with almost the entire Palestinian population encircled - he is not looking out from the West Bank but into it. The fence carving through Baqa al-Sharqia's olive groves places the village and its 4,000 Palestinian residents on the Israeli side of the wire.

"We have asked ourselves the same question many times," says Hussain. "If the fence is for security, if the fence is to keep us out, then why aren't we on the other side? With every kilometre of fence [prime minister Ariel] Sharon builds we are sure there is only one answer. This is not about security, it's about land and resources."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,38...103552,00.html

[merpk]

Interesting counterpoints.

I respect Burg a lot, and his political affiliation ... were I an Israeli citizen ... would probably be mine (Meimad originally). That said ... it should be pointed out that his condemnation is of current policy and government failures, and is pointedly not a condemnation of Zionism itself.

As he is a fervent Zionist himself ...




Regarding the fence, I was wondering why it's rarely come up here.

I'm looking forward to a few minutes to research the current planned placement of the fence and actually where the population centers are.

Remember that the bulk of the fence leaves Israel with a fence on one side, the sea on the other ... and the Palestinians with the fence on one side, and the rest of their Arab brethren in the Middle East and Asia on the other.

Just something to think about.



(Particularly since the word "ghetto" was first used to refer to walled-in enclaves where Jews were forced to live ... well, sounds like the Jews are returning themselves voluntarily to the ghetto, between the fence and the sea ...)



Oh, and the other point off the top of my head ... it is a fence. It is (in theory, anyway) made with the potential of moving it in mind.







And lastly ... since nothing else seems to be making those neighbors more neighborly, well ... good fences make good neighbors. And even not-so-good fences make good neighbors.

And if the fence deters even one suicidal jackass who wants to blow up a busload of kids coming from holy sites (along with their parents), well, good for the fence.




Stop the murder, then stop the fence.


Whew, that was a calm rant, now, wasn't it.

[mahdokht]

***.

[merpk]

So here we go again, right?




Rash ranting doesn't explain the situation. Remembering that if the Palestinian's patrons themselves would've accepted a Palestinian state 50-some-odd years ago, they would be celebrating their 50-some-odd anniversary this year.

Remembering that the only reason the oppression ever came about in the first place was nonstop murder of Israelis over the Israeli border ... and that the issue then wasn't settlements and oppression, it was simple existence ...




As I've said, I respect Mr. Burg and his views, and share many if not most of them. However, the insistence that Israel is the cause of this and will be the only one to have to move to end it is outright false.





And the cease fire ... how pathetic that was, wasn't it. Glad to hear some people felt safe.

Fact is, that instead of 50-60 attacks or attempted attacks against Israel a day, it went down to 10-20.

Now what in heck kind of cease fire is that? Sounds like a semi-cease fire, or perhaps a cease-some-of-the-fire to me.





And you know what? Even before the cease fire Israelis gathered on occasions. The Bereishis and Boombamela festivals and Israeli Rainbow gatherings happened like clockwork, all through the current intifada, along with other events. Not because they suddenly felt "safe" due to some half-baked cease fire, but because life goes on even though someone somewhere would like very much to kill you ...






Oh, and perhaps if Mr. Abbas or anyone else would crack down on terrorists and their backers and supply lines ... as they are required to do by the "road map," and as they were required to do by Oslo, and as they were required to do by the Wye River Accords but have never done ... then no one else would have had to do it for them. And that's what Israel's actions during that cease fire were.




Perhaps if Mr. Abbas is so concerned about a civil war, he should read up on Israel's early history as a state, and the Altalena incident. If he were to be firm about it, and instead of saying "oh, you stop that terrorism now," while at the same time refusing to do anything about it ... well, maybe he might succeed. Just maybe. But do nothing, get nothing.






And that was not a calm rant, was it.

[crazy_eights]

Originally posted by mahdokht
IThe Israeli army is just as guilty of the murder of innocent people as any palestinian suicide bomber.

I am not even sure where to begin with how twisted this statement is. This is a war. There is a *huge* difference between the casualties of war and those that target women and children on a bus. Or buying pizza. Or grocery shopping. Or whatever.

I am not going to get into an arguement of whose blood is redder, but that you can't see a difference between these two things speaks loads. I'm sorry. I'm disgusted.

[merpk]

Oh, and you're right, can't fire missiles at cars. Can't blow up pizza parlors and busses and claim to want peace and coexistence, either.

Can't ignite a bomb at one side of the street and then time another one to go off when the rescue personnel arrive and claim to want peace and coexistence, either.




And those Palestinian ambulances have regularly been carriers of arms and munitions, as has been documented by the press, too. And not just Israeli or "right wing" press.




And we won't even begin to talk about the incitement, and what is taught to Palestinian children, again in direct contravention of all previous accords ...

Report with videos about indoctrination to suicide bombings
Report about schoolbooks used by PA





So anyway. Now can we go back to the fence?

[mahdokht]

***

[captain optimism]

Could you all stop? It's bad enough watching the Israelis and the Palestinians getting jerked around by their horrible leadership, we don't have to get jerked around too. If we want peace there, our first step has to be peace here.

No more arguing about who is worse, please. They're both worse, okay? There isn't anybody with clean hands.

If you want to talk about what we could do to stop the escalation, I'm all about that.

The fence will make a big difference, a negative difference for both sides. It will carve up Palestinian land and make it impossible for there to be a viable two-state solution. Some in the US and some in Israel think that would be good for Israel. I don't. I think it's the key to decades more terror attacks. Yes, Arafat could stop the terror, but why should he when it's his excuse to periodically repress his opposition?

Avraham Burg is right. So were the Palestinian intellectuals who issued an anti-suicide bombing statement last summer. I'm with these people. Yes, the peace movements on both sides are shrinking. That's our fault, because we can't even talk about it without trying to argue that one death is worse than another.

[crazy_eights]

Originally posted by mahdokht
Oh yes, this is war. War is hell. When palestinians are targeted or murdered its justified in the name of self-preservation. When israeli's die its an outrageous offense against all that is right. Puleeze. .

Excuse me. Yes, when Israelis civilians are targeted it is an outrageous offense against all that is right. That you can't see that is warped.

The only Palestinians that are targeted are murderers. That you can't make that distinction, again, speaks loads.

[crazy_eights]

Originally posted by captain optimism
That's our fault, because we can't even talk about it without trying to argue that one death is worse than another.

Cap. O.

I'm sorry. No, I am not going to stop decrying what I see as a moral outrage - the equation being made between murder of innocents and targeted killing of terrorists. That most sit back an accept such a false equation only leads to further bias.

[dh2Carmen]

This situation seems endless and I know that is a dumb comment but my exasperation prevents logic sometimes!

Both sides have blindness. I don't know who/what could make them see.

Mom2six, with all this discussion of violence, that picture of your son being hit over the head is just so difficult to watch over and over!! Maybe this all starts with each of us, holding peace in our homes, loving our kids. That eye on that cartoon being batted about by the mallet on the head hurts to see as a representative for a child. Hard to take.

[BelovedBird]

The Israeli army is just as guilty of the murder of innocent people as any palestinian suicide bomber.

Not!
In your own example the target was a hamas terrorist. Which suicide bomber was targeting a terrorist and accidentally (by their own claims) hit innocents? No thats right the palestinian terrorist organisation call in to claim "credit" for the bombings.

dh2- its called a smilie or an emoticon. Get real. It is not a "picture" of Chava's anything.
:

-BelovedBird

[merpk]

And while I don't think the murder of Israeli soldiers is any less horrific, notice that we're not even talking about attacks on army checkpoints or soldiers waiting at bus stops ...

No.

Suicide bombers target shopping malls, open-air markets, nightclubs, pizza parlors, college cafeterias, Passover seders, and public busses.

This is not "whose blood is redder." This is talking about directly and specifically targeting civilians as opposed to anything even vaguely military.

If the suicide bombers were only targeting military objectives, then this discussion would be very different. Even though military objectives, just because of Israel's size, are invariably near civilians. Because that would be attacking military objectives with "collateral damage." Yes, a horrible concept, but morally in a whole different league.

Just spelling it out in case it's not clear ...







And if anyone's not comfortable with someone's signature line and choice of smilies, it could be pointed out elsewhere without trying to connect it somehow to discussions of violence ... really.

[mahdokht]

***

[mahdokht]

****

[crazy_eights]

I know Madokht has left the forum....

But in case she checks back in, I ask, "do you have the same lack of distinction between those murdered by moslem terrorists on Sept. 11 and those unfortunates caught in the crossfire during the liberation of Afganistan from Taliban rule?"

It would seem to me that according to your logic the two are one and the same.

[crazy_eights]

Originally posted by dh2Carmen
Mom2six, with all this discussion of violence, that picture of your son being hit over the head is just so difficult to watch over and over!! Maybe this all starts with each of us, holding peace in our homes, loving our kids. That eye on that cartoon being batted about by the mallet on the head hurts to see as a representative for a child. Hard to take.

DH2 - Seeing as you are new here, I find it extremely presumptive of you to assume anything about what might be going on in my home. The implication that "peace begins at home" or I need to start loving my kids is over the top. You know nothing about me or my children or my home.

NEWSFLASH - IT'S A JOKE. My boys are 18 mos apart and sibling rivalry is alive and well where we live. If you can solve that problem perhaps you can solve the Israeli/Arab conflict, too.

Editted to add: Btw- my older 5 kids picked out which emoticon represented them. So perhaps you should take it up with my 9 and 11 year old.

[BelovedBird]

Originally posted by mahdokht
"The charred flesh of dead palestinian children is just as much of an insult to humanity and to morality, just as repulsive to God as the flesh of jewish ones. "

But since the concensus is that this simply isn't the case, then there really is nothing to discuss.

Oh please! Noone has said that. There is no such concensus. The only concensus is that attacks intentionally targeting civilians is worlds away from and cannot be compared to attacks targetting people who are trying to kill other people.

-BelovedBird

[3boys4us]

Well since I'm the OP let me explain myself - the reason I picked the essay was that it was GOOD - it is something we don't often get to read in the US. It wasn't putting down Zionism (in fact I think the author is a strong zionist). I liked his thoughts. They were critical of the current Israeli govt. which has done less for the well-being of Israel then any other (except perhaps Sharon's first go-around). Why can't we discuss/argue the points as opposed to being called names?

And before I am hit with the Arafat hammer, I do not think he's any better. But Abbas is trying.

I just would like to see some different (Israeli) points of view then the ones we currrently get hand fed.

I'd also like to see some more different Palestinian points of view as well.

Regarding the fence - if it is about peace - why not allow the Palestinians to keep their farmland - their livelihood? Could poverty be considered peaceful?

Overall my real point was this - if after nearly 50 years of violence by both sides (Israel and the Occupied Territories) - with one side clearly being labeled as "terrorists" and the other as "victims" how can the US expect to do any better in Iraq or Afghanistan?

[merpk]

Agreeing with BB ... mahdokht, nobody said that. Nobody. Guaranteed that everybody involved in this discussion is as horrified by the deaths of Palestinian children as you are.

We're talking about the actual intent of those who've done the killing. That is the heart of this ...

And for an actual breakdown of the actual number of those killed, their ages and genders, all graphed out ... last updated in May, so it doesn't include all the fatalities since ... here is a study conducted about that very subject.

Everyone's blood is red. And all are G-d's creation.




And 3boy4us, I agree with you again ... ... twice in one month, man, what's goin' on here? :LOL