Care to share how you feel about SF?? - Page 2

[leila1213]

Originally Posted by firefaery

We don't really know that because all these foods are "traditional" that it would be beneficial to use all of them without regard to proportions and amounts of nutrients-KWIM???

You hit the nail on the head here with what I felt was missing from NT. It just feels like such a mish-mash...where to start? I am reading the Maker's Diet right now and hoping that it will help me figure out the ratios of grains vs. raw vs. fats vs. fermented, etc. Now, if you want to talk about people making profits and elevating themselves to guru status (aaah-jordan rubin-choo!)...

I definitely want to check out that AV yahoo group.

[bluebell]

Originally Posted by firefaery

Price reported that all of the diets came out comparable in terms of nutrients which means that people were getting what they needed using local resources. We don't really know that because all these foods are "traditional" that it would be beneficial to use all of them without regard to proportions and amounts of nutrients-KWIM???

interesting, i've been thinking and wondering about portion sizes and how often i eat certain foods. i guess nowdays in the modern world we have access and ability to eat so much more food than previously. i do worry about how much dairy i could consume now that i have easy access to raw dairy, perhaps the amounts i could eat on a daily basis wouldn't be healty (i don't know i'm just pondering this!).

i will definitly have to check out the AV group because i'm someone in my naivity and vulnerability for a 'cure' for my ailments will elevate anyone to 'guru' in my own mind if they seem to be confident in their ideas on healing. i do it with health practioners i consult and then if it dosn't 'work' then i'm so disappointed!!! especially if i'm investing lots of money in consultations and suppliments etc.
i need to trust myself and my own path a bit more - firefaery thanks for your post, it was very helpful.

also very interesting about sally fallon - i didn't know any of that stuff about her - great thread, thanks to the OP for starting it.

[crunchy_mama]

I am with a lot of the others on here, my dislike of SF firstly is with her horrible bf'ing info. Secondly I have a huge problem with how she totally ignores allergies. If you eat her perfect way than you are not supposed to have any problems and anyone with milk issues should just drink raw and be cured. Well, first of all many cultures Price studied didn't drink milk products- many others didn't have grains as such a huge focus and not such a wide variety. Plenty of us have issues with milk; raw or not. It annoys the piss out of me to have people say oh, just drink raw milk or soak your grains. I think that the TF diet she promotes may be better for the vast number of SAD dieters- however I think there are different diets for different people. I think there are many better "plans" out there.

[Mirzam]

I feel I have to defend AV somewhat, as I actually know him. He really wouldn't want to be anyone's guru as far as I can know. He is very much a take it or leave it kind of guy. He does have strong opinions and isn't shy to express them. He will tell you what he recommends, but he has nothing invested in whether you take his advice or not. If you saw him IRL, you would see whatever he is doing personally works, for a 60 something man he is in amazing health and vitality. Having said that, I don't think he has all the answers by any means, but as a healing diet, the Primal Diet, even used short term no doubt works to bring people into balance. But it isn't easy to sustain, so I think people start it, find it difficult to do day in and day out and so look for reasons to diss it. FF I agree with you on his breastfeeding stance. Actually, he isn't great on children, the Primal Diet, is really, really difficult for them. He is guy, who has never raised a child, he does have a son, but was never involved in his life at all until his son's accident. This past summer, he took one look at two of my children and said they were too thin! DD (almost 10 at the time) weighed around 70 lbs and DS (7 1/2) was about 55 lbs, and I would concede that he is thin, but both are extremely strong and healthy, with no health issues whatsoever.

[guestmama9904]

yeah the breastfeeding thing in NT is so bizarre to me. I have studied many books and organizations recomendations on breastfeeding and from what i have gleaned even women who are malnourished to the point of daily hunger can breastfeed safetly and make enough milk for their children. it may not be perfectly balanced with omega fatty acids but it is breastmilk.

lots of women all over the world live in war zones and abject poverty and do breastfeed, and for these women it is much safer for them to breastfeed then use questionable or out right tainted water and formula that they cannot afford, or "weaning" cereals with this bad water that lead to diahreal illnesses and kill babies.

lots of sallys writing i love, but i find more inspiration from full moon feast for actual quality recipes. but i think sally fallon is a radical food hero, really! she has introduced so many beneficial ideas to at least some of the masses.

[batsoup]

Originally Posted by arismama!

lots of sallys writing i love, but i find more inspiration from full moon feast for actual quality recipes.

what's that?

[Bensmommy]

SF background on BF is colored by her own BF experience. She was unable to sustainably nurse any of her 4 kids (so she thinks that a lot of women have trouble...). I have experience on both sides- DS had horrible trouble (I had milk, but his health issues caused him to self wean at 4months...long story...lot of pumping...) and am happily nursing DD at 26mos! I know that women's milk is influenced by their diet and a TF momma makes good milk, but I think that there is sooooo much more to BF than momma diet. Bottom line (and this is from a lactavist- I'll whip it out in front of anyone ) is the health of the child and mom- if either is in jeopardy, then help and other alternatives should be sought. Sure, raw milk formula is way better than commercial, but women with nursing troubles should be seeking professional help to figure it all out (even if they are supplementing while getting it straight)

PS My guess is she had a latch problem or the kids were tongue tied...

[krankedyann]

Originally Posted by firefaery

If she can make the leap and claim that homosexuality is a result of malnutrition (which she does) then she can CERTAINLY also see that inability to produce milk is related to nutrition. (FWIW I am by no means in agreement with her about the homosexuality thing!) I just think that part is pathetic.

Back up, time out. Where does she say this???

I've aired my complaints about SF/WAPF a few hundred times on MDC. In a nutshell, I don't like the aggressive approach and sarcastic tone and BF info. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. There's a place to be mad, but I don't think it's all the time or in that way. Most of the website is written in that same tone, and is a complete turn-off. I think the mad is best directed at people who are also convinced, and not people who are new to the ideas.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by firefaery

Fallon takes elements of traditional diets and proclaims them all beneficial and throws them together not allowing for the fact that NONE of the traditional peoples would have had access to the vast majority of them. They ate balanced regional diets. Someone eating large amounts of grains wouldn't necessarily also be eating large amount of dairy or large amounts of animal meat etc. etc. etc. By throwing it all together you *could* be creating some serious issues. Price reported that all of the diets came out comparable in terms of nutrients which means that people were getting what they needed using local resources. We don't really know that because all these foods are "traditional" that it would be beneficial to use all of them without regard to proportions and amounts of nutrients-KWIM???

Yep, this is it exactly for me. The whole "Well, group 1 ate X and group 2 ate Y and group 3 ate Z, so you should eat X, Y, and Z every day." Except that none of the foods are available on the same continent, and some of the foods were not available year round and others were available in limited amounts. And Group 1 had been eating X for 2000 years, and group 2 had been eating Y for 3000 years, and group 3 and been eating Z from a different breed of animal than is commercially available in the US.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by uccomama

I feel I have to defend AV somewhat, as I actually know him. He really wouldn't want to be anyone's guru as far as I can know. He is very much a take it or leave it kind of guy. He does have strong opinions and isn't shy to express them. He will tell you what he recommends, but he has nothing invested in whether you take his advice or not. If you saw him IRL, you would see whatever he is doing personally works, for a 60 something man he is in amazing health and vitality. Having said that, I don't think he has all the answers by any means, but as a healing diet, the Primal Diet, even used short term no doubt works to bring people into balance. But it isn't easy to sustain, so I think people start it, find it difficult to do day in and day out and so look for reasons to diss it. FF I agree with you on his breastfeeding stance. Actually, he isn't great on children, the Primal Diet, is really, really difficult for them. He is guy, who has never raised a child, he does have a son, but was never involved in his life at all until his son's accident. This past summer, he took one look at two of my children and said they were too thin! DD (almost 10 at the time) weighed around 70 lbs and DS (7 1/2) was about 55 lbs, and I would concede that he is thin, but both are extremely strong and healthy, with no health issues whatsoever.

ITA with everything here. He clearly (if you read his book) is not invested at all in the whole guru thing. It's very clear that he's telling his story and he never EVER makes any effort to suck people in. He says what has worked in his experience. It's a VERY different tone than other books I've read, NT included.

I get the whole thing about kids, and that is why I was able to skip it. I have a much bigger issue with Fallon's stance as I said.

His diet is not easy, but I'll tell you what, it has changed my life. Does that mean it will change anyone else's? Not sure. Again, all I can say is what has worked for me. I would encourage anyone embarking on a new journey to do so armed with information and do what is right for them. It's never smart to follow anything with blind faith. We are able to think critically for a reason. We all have intuition for a reason.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by batsoup

what's that?

http://www.wisefoodways.com/moons/

gorgeous book...worth every penny!

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by krankedyann

Back up, time out. Where does she say this???

I thought it was in NT...though I lent out my copy. I know I read it in print though. Anyone else have the book handy??

She basically says that homosexuality is a modern disease resulting from malnutrition. I believe she blames it on soy specifically.

Google her name + homosexuality and see if you get anything. Off to do it myself now.

[bri276]

i dont know a lot about her, but when i read NT (which i like, dont get me wrong) i felt like it was disjointed and plain wrong in a lot of places.

ITA. I'm really on board with eating TF and everything, and there's a ton of great info in NT, but then I'll read something, especially in the margins, and roll my eyes. I'm living with my unhealthy mother and stepfather (who eats margarine and diet soda!!) and trying to slowly get them into TF, yet I keep that book away from them because there's so much quirky, weird and inappropriate stuff in it that I'm afraid someone less open minded would write off the whole TF diet just by flipping through the pages.

I also completely agree that most of the recipes suck and could be improved upon very easily, but at least they're a sort of inspiration.

The people that Price studied didn't have diets that looked like NT. Fallon takes elements of traditional diets and proclaims them all beneficial and throws them together not allowing for the fact that NONE of the traditional peoples would have had access to the vast majority of them.

You are SO right. It's hard to picture a TF village who gorges themselves daily upon liver, cod liver oil, raw cream, sticks of butter, every kind of soaked and sprouted nut and grain known to mankind, and washes it down with kombucha and kefir! I think *balance* is really missing.

But the breastfeeding thing, like others have mentioned, is the huge dealbreaker for me. She completely and utterly ignores the fact that hey- outside of vitamin A and high quality fats, breastmilk provides immunity in a way that's barely understood by science. No matter how grass fed and raw it is, other animal's milk does not provide protection to infants the way mama's milk does. It is literally dangerous to imply otherwise.

I mean, check this out:
http://www.westonaprice.org/children/breastfeed.html

Breastfeeding advocates argue that breast-fed children have lower mortality rates and better levels of health than formulafed children. In third world countries, where the cleanliness needed for safe bottle-feeding is lacking, this is undoubtedly true. But a perusal of recent studies comparing breastfed and formula-fed infants presents a real dilemma for breastfeeding advocates because the research does not provide a clear case of benefit...
the diet of modern American women is so appalling, and their preparation for successful breastfeeding so lacking, that their breast milk provides no better nourishment for their infants than factory-made formula.

that's just the beginning. That is an APALLINGLY biased, unscientific, and irresponsible representation of studies done about bf'ing. When you write something like that, to me, it really is going to destroy your credibility when it comes to interpreting other issues. Anyone can pick and choose studies to try to prove their point, and I think SF does that to a disturbing degree not just about breastfeeding.

[Panserbjorne]

Nope. That didn't work...I'll have to go through my book when I get it back. I didn't find it on the net, it was in a book because I passed it to several people to read. I'll try and find out what else I would have read....

[tayndrewsmama]

I am rather skeptical of SF. I am grateful for the intro to TF through NT. I met her last summer and we spoke for a bit about digestive issues related to NT. I am gluten intolerant and there's no way around it. She was rather dismissive of the idea that there are people just cannot eat gluten. That was pretty irritating. FWIW, the event that I was at didn't make any mention of mother's milk being inferior to anything at all. There was no mention of formula being equal to breastmilk at all. Our entire group would have been pretty pissed and probably left if that happened.

I agree that many recipes need improvement. Some have cooking times way off and others need serious adjustments on the amount of particular ingredients. Something that struck me as odd when we saw her was that she was explaining that it's normal for women to gain a little weight after menopause, but she appears to be a good 30 to 40 pounds overweight and that seems to be a bit more than 'a little weight gain'. I also found it interesting that her face looks to be about 20 years younger than the rest of her body. I don't know how to explain it, but it was odd and made me wonder just what the reason would be for that. I am not picking on her, but considering her health and food advice it seems relevan to me. Her dh is an incredibly sweet and super nice man though. He's one of those little old man types that you just want to hug.

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by bri276

that's just the beginning. That is an APALLINGLY biased, unscientific, and irresponsible representation of studies done about bf'ing. When you write something like that, to me, it really is going to destroy your credibility when it comes to interpreting other issues. Anyone can pick and choose studies to try to prove their point, and I think SF does that to a disturbing degree not just about breastfeeding.

Yep. I am completely turned off anything by her and WAPF now because if you can be so wrong about something so basic and fundamental, how can I trust anything else you say?

[krankedyann]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

Yep. I am completely turned off anything by her and WAPF now because if you can be so wrong about something so basic and fundamental, how can I trust anything else you say?

BINGO. I completely dismissed WAPF when I was pregnant with my first, because of the poor nursing info. That is exactly what I thought.

I approached Sally on this one, and she completely dismissed me and removed me as a chapter leader because I questioned her. So I started a petition but I wasn't able to finish writing it an start with the signatures and approaching the board members due to the ups and downs in my own personal life. We need to pick back up on that petition and show the WAPF board how many people won't join and support the foundation based on that one issue alone. Money talks.

She completely dismissed me about breastfeeding having any benefit other than nutritional, too. And she particularly fussed about Brian Palmer's research on breastfeeding and palate development (said he's twisting WAPs work) and wouldn't even acknowledge immunity, cancer rates, illness, and a whole host of other things BFing protects against.

[Pinky Tuscadero]

I've emailed back and forth with her about the BF info. She won't budge. I flat out told her I can't join WAPF because of it. I give tons to LLL. I can't turn around and financially support WAPF when they put out that cr@p.

[Gale Force]

My biggest issue is also the BF advice. It's now memorialized on Gumpert's blog The Complete Patient. It chaps my ass.

[krankedyann]

Originally Posted by Gale Force

My biggest issue is also the BF advice. It's now memorialized on Gumpert's blog The Complete Patient. It chaps my ass.

Who is that and do you have a link?