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Care to share how you feel about SF?? - Page 3

post #41 of 147
Well, I admit that I joined WAPF because I believe in the quest for legal, safe, raw dairy and I distrust soy completely (it's in EVERYTHING!). Now I feel kinda guilty about giving them my $40! Oh well, I just won't "re-up" I guess.
Amazing that she won't listen to reason about BF- she herself even said that she was dedicated to BF her own kids- guess she's bitter that it didn't work out...

ETA: I just browsed the PPNF site and found this in the area labled "Similarities of Traditional Diets" #12 "They all breast-fed their young (italics mine). Most of them fed special protective foods to their young of child-bearing age in preparation for conception, pregnancy, and lactation. Most of them had some means of spacing the children at least three years apart, to protect the health of the newborns and their mothers" Ironic that SF will balk at this fundamental finding. She mentions the rest, but not that first part.
post #42 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by krankedyann View Post
Back up, time out. Where does she say this???
She didn't come up with the idea--I'm pretty sure it was from Pottenger's cat study and various other sources.
post #43 of 147

X-posted

This may not be a popular post but I feel it is important to say that genetic low supply DOES exist. I have insufficient glandular tissue resulting in chronic low supply. I have tried everything (really), I am very educated, come from a very probreastfeeding family/community/part of the country and I use a SNS and have for the almost 6 mo.s of DS's life. The raw milk formula saved us from having to use the awful dried milk formula mixes. I do think breast is best but more for the bonding and hormone exchange than for nutrition. Cows and goats are lower on the food chain and generally are less exposed to the fat soluable toxins humans are, if they are healthy and grass fed they are eating what makes their bodies healthiest (you can't say that for most humans) and when buying best quality ingredients I agree with SF that the formula is probably (strictly from a nutritional standpoint) better. I know that breastfeeding doesn't need any more bad press but I think that SF assumes that people reading her book probably have a working understanding of nutrition and can separate their politics from the info she's providing. Also, having low supply I can speak to the alienation that those of us who can't breastfeed feel from those of you who can and who insist what is happening to us does not exist. It does and it was really helpful to find support in NT.
post #44 of 147
I have supply issues as well. I never experienced lactogenesis 1 with any of my kids. I did have to make formula and used a recipe (not from Fallon) but it was quite similar. I'm not against that information being out there.

HOWEVER, I was able to fix my problem nutritionally. I never experienced lactogensis, but I was able nutritionally to solve the issue. It took alot of work and alot of expertise from various professionals. I also have insufficient ductal tissue (a glandular problem as well) and used nutrition (in the form of food as well as herbs) to stimulate growth. It did work. By my third kiddo I didn't need donated milk.

There is research being done that connects inflammation to lactation difficulties. The bottom line is all of these issues IMO are a result of poor nutrition. It took ne several years to get to a better place, and I'm still not sure I'm 100% healed. However I am seeing signs across the board that my body is dealing far better with stress. And I got a full supply this last time around with no drugs.

I don't think what you are talking about is a genetic problem, but a lack of nutrient stores that are passed down. There is a difference. The only way I was able to get some answers is that I've been through it 3 times. I was also VERY lucky to have some well known people in my corner that are at the forefront of research and had many tools to help. I *know* I got lucky.

I'm not saying any of this to discount your experience, I would never do that. However if you decide to have another, perhaps this will be helpful in some way. Even if you have poor stores that were handed down, as I did, it *may* be in your power to correct it.

I just wish that SF looked into that information as well. It's all well and good to give alternatives to those who need it, but arming people with information so that they can change their experience is the biggest gift. If people can (and most can) improve their experience with proper nutrition then that is the info that needs to be out there. Insufficient supply and oversupply are both tied to poor gut function. THAT'S HUGE. We deserve, within the context of nutrition to be hearing that.
post #45 of 147
Sometimes I wonder if SF tried going gluten free, would she have been able to breastfeed all her children? Perhaps she just wasn't able to absorb all the nutrient dense foods she was eating at the time due to gut damage from all the "properly prepared", glutenous grains she ate.
post #46 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bensmommy View Post
ETA: I just browsed the PPNF site and found this in the area labled "Similarities of Traditional Diets" #12 "They all breast-fed their young (italics mine). Most of them fed special protective foods to their young of child-bearing age in preparation for conception, pregnancy, and lactation. Most of them had some means of spacing the children at least three years apart, to protect the health of the newborns and their mothers" Ironic that SF will balk at this fundamental finding. She mentions the rest, but not that first part.
Yes, I asked Sally about the baby spacing nature of extended nursing, and got a blank response. She also acknowledges nothing of the positive repercussions of fewer menses in a woman's life due to pregnancy/nursing. She believes all the risks of not nursing can be overcome with nutrition.
post #47 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmalyne View Post
almost 6 mo.s of DS's life. The raw milk formula saved us from having to use the awful dried milk formula mixes. I do think
Here's the difference- WAPF currently says "think you might have a minor problem? You need to go back to work and you're too embarrassed to try to pump? You don't want the baby to have to be with you all the time? It's no issue at all- this is just as good. Don't listen to those people behind the curtain." They should be saying "Here's why it's important and here's where you can get help. If it doesn't work out and a professional in lactation says you need to supplement, look for donor milk. If you can't find any, this homemade formula is far superior to commercial formula." The issue is that they turn to the formula first, with no advice about where to find help to fix the problems or overcome the difficulty. Notice they give thumbs down to LLL on the website.

I do believe there are women out there who can not nurse. And they have my sympathy. However, many women who can and led to believe that they can not for minor or easily fixable reasons or that the raw milk formula is just as good for convenience's sake. And that's where my problem with WAPF lies.
post #48 of 147
Quote:
The raw milk formula saved us from having to use the awful dried milk formula mixes. I do think breast is best but more for the bonding and hormone exchange than for nutrition. Cows and goats are lower on the food chain and generally are less exposed to the fat soluable toxins humans are, if they are healthy and grass fed they are eating what makes their bodies healthiest (you can't say that for most humans) and when buying best quality ingredients I agree with SF that the formula is probably (strictly from a nutritional standpoint) better. I know that breastfeeding doesn't need any more bad press but I think that SF assumes that people reading her book probably have a working understanding of nutrition and can separate their politics from the info she's providing. Also, having low supply I can speak to the alienation that those of us who can't breastfeed feel from those of you who can and who insist what is happening to us does not exist. It does and it was really helpful to find support in NT.
I don't question for a moment that low supply happens, even when the mother does everything "right" from day one. It absolutely can and does happen. No one who is actually educated about lactation and breastfeeding could say otherwise. How often it is insufficient glandular tissue or hormonal imbalances or other structural or genetic problems vs. environmental causes is slightly debatable, but by looking at societies and even entire nations where the use of supplementary formula from birth onwards is unheard of, it's clear that environment is playing a LARGE part in the US in breastfeeding failures. Of course, there will always be that 1 or 2% (which is one or two out of every hundred people, nothing to sneeze at) who cannot do it regardless, for whatever reason, in mother or baby. I had to pump and bottlefeed and have therefore dealt with a touch of the alienation you speak of, not to the same degree I'm sure, but I do sympathize.

Ok. Now that's out of the way- SOME babies and SOME mothers will absolutely have no choice and need a high quality, home made formula. Is it better than Enfamil? No doubt in my mind. Someone who knows what they're doing can create a formula with grass fed animal milk that is safe, nutritious, and healthy. Is it equal to or- as you imply- possibly even better than human breastmillk, regardless of the mother's diet? Absolutely not.

As far as "chemicals in the environment", we're talking trace amounts and there is no question in the mind of anyone who has researched the subject fully that the theoretical risks are far outweighed by the benefits. When SF and others speak of "nutrition of the mother" as an argument for TF formula, it really exposes a huge lack of education on the topic of breastmilk. Vitamins, minerals, and fats in breastmilk certainly depend, in part, upon the mother's diet, so strictly speaking, the nutritional quality can be influenced by diet. What cannot be influenced, are, in my opinion, the much more important aspects of breastmilk. Yes, more important than long chain fatty acids and vitamin C are the factors that protect a newborn from HUMAN disease. The most perfect, well nourished cow or goat is still a cow or goat who cannot provide the same benefits that even a 24/7 fast food eating breastfeeding mother can. I won't even begin to start listing the diseases formula fed babies are in danger of from lack of breastmilk, but Hib is a good example. The fact that some women have no control over their ability to breastfeed does not change this. A human baby, especially a newborn, will always be better off with human milk regardless of the mother's diet.
post #49 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAF View Post
Sometimes I wonder if SF tried going gluten free, would she have been able to breastfeed all her children? Perhaps she just wasn't able to absorb all the nutrient dense foods she was eating at the time due to gut damage from all the "properly prepared", glutenous grains she ate.
That was a major part for me, no doubt.
post #50 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri276 View Post
by looking at societies and even entire nations where the use of supplementary formula from birth onwards is unheard of,
But even in traditional societies there were still individual women with insuficcient or nonexistent milk supplies. These babies were either breastfed from another woman (aunt, grandma, neighbor, etc) or fed raw milk from another mammal (not doctored into formula.) Milk supply problems have always existed in small numbers- but in a society where most children breastfed for several years, there were usually lactating women available to pick up the slack.

Nobody denying the reality of milk supply problems. What we're questioning is the WAPF's response and the way they promote the use of their formula recipe. It should be a last resort when sufficient breastmilk isn't available; not the first-choice when nursing moms hit a bump in the road.
post #51 of 147
it just seems to me that many moms in my real life experience (not on mdc where it seems most women are very breastfeeding educated) say they "didn't make enough milk" and i don't even think they knew how to quantify this.

perhaps they decided because baby was hungry every 2 hours he must be starving when in reality breastfed babies may need to eat continuously in the beginning of life.
or their mothers told them breastfeeding was hard and not worth it, or their husbands told them it was un-sexy or weird, or who knows, but the general societal lack of belief in womens ability to nurse seems staggering and detrimental to women feeling they have enough milk.

now of course some women truly do not make enough milk, but the vast majority of women could make enough milk, this is simple medical fact from everything i have personally researched.

as far as sf's personal breastfeeding failure I would guess that perhaps she was not breastfeeding as often as they needed to nurse, this was commonplace decades ago for women to be told by MDs that they should only breastfeed every 4 hours.

I was even told this by a nurse at the hospital. she said if i breastfed my 2 day old son whenever he cried I would end up never being able to do anything alone, even going to the bathroom! lol, crazy advice, which I of course ignored after listening to my darling baby cry for even a minute which sent my milk flowing all over and my heart aching.
post #52 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by arismama! View Post

now of course some women truly do not make enough milk, but the vast majority of women could make enough milk, this is simple medical fact from everything i have personally researched.
That is no longer the case. New research has to be conducted to keep up with the rapid decline in health. As autoimmune diseases increase (and they have, steadily) more and more women are having supply issues. Now, I believe that any autoimmune issue can be solved nutritionally-but if you aren't aware of that fact then the conclusion would be that in many cases of these diseases (which are all related to gut function) there is compromised supply.

It does exist, it can be dealt with just as any other health issue can be addressed....nutritionally. We need to recognize that the state of our health is on a steady downward trajectory and this is one of the results.

While it's true that a woman that is malnourished can still lactate, it is becoming more clear that woman who is malnourished AND in an acute inflammatory response may not.

Just another perspective. It's one that should be looked at in a nutritional text that relates to traditional foods and practices. Our world HAS changed. We need to be cognizant of that fact. A back to basics approach is fantastic, but there may be some lag-time as you overcome significant obstacles-KWIM?
post #53 of 147
i mostly have studied the usual breastfeeding sources for my info such as LLL and world health organization, dr. sears ect. I'd love to see the newer info and studies if you have any artcles you can link or books to recommend that discuss the facts on low supply relating to auto immune disease and this being a modern nutritional problem, it sounds like an interesting hypothosis.
post #54 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by krankedyann View Post
Back up, time out. Where does she say this???
I don't know if she's ever said it, but it has been mentioned in WT. In a book review from Janice Curtin:

Quote:
I particularly enjoyed his "Food for Thought" sections. He dares to tell you the politics behind many of our government policies and how they are harmful to children. He gives his opinion on how policy should be changed to be safer. In his chapter on The Ancestry Factor he even talks about sexual preference and the biological and physiological reasons for the propensity towards homosexuality--as appeared in the Pottenger cat studies.
post #55 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefaery View Post
That is no longer the case. New research has to be conducted to keep up with the rapid decline in health. As autoimmune diseases increase (and they have, steadily) more and more women are having supply issues. Now, I believe that any autoimmune issue can be solved nutritionally-but if you aren't aware of that fact then the conclusion would be that in many cases of these diseases (which are all related to gut function) there is compromised supply.
Firefaery what are auto immune diseases? can you tell me a few of the other names that i might know them by.
post #56 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
Firefaery what are auto immune diseases? can you tell me a few of the other names that i might know them by.
celiac, crohn's, addison's, lupus, hashimotos, graves, MS, diabetes 1, rheumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia, endometriosis, chronic fatigue syndrome, eczema, psoriasis, asthma, colitis etc.

Incidentally, obesity is starting to be called an autoimmune disease, but that isn't widely accepted yet to my knowledge. Osteoarthritis is as well.
post #57 of 147
Oh, and how could we forget PCOS?
post #58 of 147
Auto-immune means that the immune system is "working overtime" and attacking your own body's cells instead of only attacking foreign particles.

Different auto-immune diseases are caused by different kinds cells being attacked.

And fibromyalgia is not a "definite" auto-immune disease. Nobody really knows what causes it- there isn't any inflamation (which is common for auto-immune diseases). Beleive me, I know more about FMS than I'd like to know, having to live with it.
post #59 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by arismama! View Post
i mostly have studied the usual breastfeeding sources for my info such as LLL and world health organization, dr. sears ect. I'd love to see the newer info and studies if you have any artcles you can link or books to recommend that discuss the facts on low supply relating to auto immune disease and this being a modern nutritional problem, it sounds like an interesting hypothosis.
Usual sources will give you usual information. IF you are a woman that hasn't been helped by this information you have to go elsewhere. The usual sources weren't helping me induce supply. I had an autoimmune disease. I sought out the leading professional in the field and was able to participate in the preliminary research. I was a case study.

As I said, new research HAS to be conducted. It is in the works now and more and more people are looking at it. You can't apply old rules to a new game.

I know there is some research out there in veterinary science which is generally the place we look to for info. People don't care when women can't lactate, but they sure as hell care when cows can't. There is a "new" syndrome that has been coined "fat cow syndrome" in which the cows have excessive inflammation and due to the increase in fatty tissue and displacement of ductal tissue fail to lactate. Adipose tissue stores prolactin. If there is too much inflammation receptors get blocked and there is an issue of estrogen dominance which of course effects lactation.

It is ultimately a result of malnutrition which is what happens in autoimmune diseases. Poor gut function results in malnourishment which results in autoimmune diseases. These cows are found to be lacking in nutrients so the cure is nutritional. They don't throw pills at them, they actually tend to fix the source of the problem. Interesting concept, right?

The REALLY interesting part for the WAP people is that several of the studies I've seen in veterinary journals have pointed to "low vitamin A levels, bordering on deficiency." So I guess that vitamin A business clearly applies here!

So, I'm not sure of many published human studies *yet* but it is being looked at and already has been in the animal world.
post #60 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
Auto-immune means that the immune system is "working overtime" and attacking your own body's cells instead of only attacking foreign particles.

Different auto-immune diseases are caused by different kinds cells being attacked.

And fibromyalgia is not a "definite" auto-immune disease. Nobody really knows what causes it- there isn't any inflamation (which is common for auto-immune diseases). Beleive me, I know more about FMS than I'd like to know, having to live with it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082086
"FM is postulated to be an autoimmune disorder and may include dysfunction of purine nucleotide metabolism and nociception."


Researchers are becoming more aware of the immune system and how it plays a role in the development of fibromyalgia. When the immune system is activated it can affect the peripheral nerves, portions of the spinal cord and brain, causing an increase in pain. A good example of this phenomenon is shingles, which is a herpes virus that attacks the nerves, causing excruciating pain. Many people diagnosed with fibromyalgia relate that the onset of their symptoms occurred either during or right after a viral infection such as the flu. Exactly how the immune system is involved in the development of fibromyalgia is still a mystery, but scientific researchers are busy investigating this connection.

http://www.backtobetterhealth.com/fibromyalgia.html
http://www.mold-survivor.com/fibromyalgia.html
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