Breastfeeding, and sagginess - Page 4

[honolula]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

There are two studies, perhaps poorly done, but studies nonetheless, that state that the evidence is pregnancy is responsible for post-baby breast "sagging", and that nursing or not does not add to the amount of sag.

There are no studies that suggest nursing is responsible for further "sag".

You may distrust or disagree with the studies, and personally I think they are definitely lacking in size and scope, but scientific evidence says it is pregnancy alone, and only anecdotal evidence says nursing makes it worse.

It's intellectually dishonest to relay the information that the very few scientific studies on the subject have found? I don't understand that.

I think it's intellectually dishonest to relay that info as fact, when you yourself admit that the studies are lacking in size and scope. To say, "There's evidence suggesting that etc" is one thing, but to say, "Breastfeeding does NOT cause etc" is another.

I think it's intellectually dishonest to call the experience of women worldwide anecdotal, while holding high two ANECDOTAL studies (come on!) as Almighty Scientific Proof. I think it's intellectually dishonest to refer to anecdotal studies as 'scientific' when the observations collected in the study have not been subjected to scientific method, on one hand, while on the other hand we have the scientific definition of weight as the measure of force that will be acted upon an object by gravity and the knowledge that gravity is what causes sagging, and that a breast full of milk is a heavier breast.


If you took a study as half-baked as either of those that regarded vaccinations and tossed it onto this board, look out, it would be torn in so many directions from last Tuesday to next Christmas that the coroners office wouldn't be able to find so much as a semi-colon at the crime scene.
But this one is repeated as fact. As FACT, and the experience of women all over is dismissed. That's highly unusual, for MDC.
This is not a community that typically accepts poorly thought-out medical studies- but this one says something we like!

My problem with all this is simple: dubious information is a turn-off. It doesn't HELP the cause of breastfeeding, It hinders it by muddying the waters instead of touting the thing on its own merits and addressing its drawbacks in a realistic way. Making suspect statements that appeal to people who already share your belief's but raise the eyebrow's of everybody else just makes you look like a zealot, and people tend to tune zealots out.

[ParisApril]

honolula- I think you are missing everyone's point here. There are many causes for sagging breasts. No one is saying that breastfeeding didn't cause your sagging breasts. We are just saying there may be many other causes as well.

Intellectual - involving or appealing to the intellect; requiring intellegence
Honest - truthful; trustworthy; sincere and genuine; frank, open

I have not seen any studies that show Breastfeeding causes sagging. So I for one will stand firm in my beliefs and I will continue to correct people who say Breastfeeding was the single cause of their sagging.

[llamalluv]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

Furthermore, I was someone who started puberty with southward facing breasts, and this conversation always bugs me. I hated my breasts for years because of "sag=bad" conversations and implications.

Me, too. My sister, too. And my stick-thin cousins (as opposed to hefty sis and I). We all grew huge breasts that lost perkiness after we hit a B cup. We blame Grandma. Her big boobs are saggy, too.

Now that I'm older, and I have a husband that loves *MY* breasts, I really don't care that "everyone" prefers perky boobs.

And I'm looking forward to being able to feed my child from the next room.

[redfern]

Originally Posted by honolula

So, I read the links (you know, the sources I asked for?), and it looks like they are all from 2 studies. A few issues with these studies: they both pertain ONLY to women who have undergone breast lifts. I'm not all that surprised that there isn't a big difference in the level of ptosis among women seeking breast lifts who have nursed, and those who haven't. They all have sagging, they're all there for that reason.
So all of the women who nursed gave birth, but not all of the women who gave birth nursed. I don't argue that pregnancy doesn't contribute to ptosis in many women, but the study seems to assume that it does, and that it would follow that a woman who breastfed would have additional ptosis.
This logic doesn't apply to me since I didn't have any noticeable sagging as a result of either pregnancy, so the sagging I got from nursing wasn't compounding sagging from pregnancy.

Not sure how welcome this will be but I can't resist chiming in. The argument gets a little heated and I don't want to fire anything up. I checked out the links too and was really disappointed to see them used as support for the argument that breastfeeding is not associated with sagginess. As honolula says, they are not good sources. The generalizablitiy to women without breast lifts is highly doubtful. The data and interpretation is not published in a peer-reviewed journal. The reporters of the data (American Society of Plastic Surgeons) have a conflict of interest. News agencies are notorious for misinterpreting epidemiological data.

Anyway, I guess my point is that I really identify with honolula's point. I would be annoyed to hear someone deny something that many many women have experienced and know to be true, at least personally by citing "studies show...". I guess I think it is counterproductive to deny percieved disadvantages to breastfeeding because we don't have scientific evidence for it. And this is coming from an epidemiologist! Seriously though, somethings we just *know* to be generally true. Denying it undermines our purpose, YK? I much rather the "badge of honour" approach when the concern comes up. Yah, I nursed my babies until they weaned themselves. My breasts saw a lot of wear and tear. They show it. I am proud of what me and the girls accomplished! I love that I used my body the way it was meant to be used and I don't mind that it shows =).
Hugs Mamas

[phreedom]

I don't really care if BFing causes sagginess. I was still worth it to me. If it bothers me to the point that I just can't look at them any more, I'll get new ones. Yeah...I said it.

[Firemom]

Hey if it makes you happy to say that breastfeeding causes saggy breasts, all the power to you all.

Personally, as an advocate of breastfeeding I prefer to give women reasons to breastfeed. Many women will not breastfeed if they are told that it will ruin there breasts.

Many women state that they had to stop breastfeeding because they couldn't produce enough milk. They all beleive this even though studies show that it is in the very low percentiles that truly cannot make enough milk.

[mamabain]

i've breastfed two children for a total of over 6 years. my breasts are not saggy or droopy, my nipples still go through at least 2 layers... they feel flatter than when i was nursing frequently (now down to 5 minutes every other day or so).

i was an a before and am an a now.

that being said, it is sad that our culture places so much emphasis on perky, big breasts so that we women have so much invested in keeping them that way, if they start that way. so much invested in them that we would consider not breastfeeding to avoid droopiness...

[elanorh]

Well, if anecdotal evidence is going to trump what paltry scientific research has been done in this area ....

[and let me note again that I think the 'perky breasts' argument is insulting to women since many of us never have had 'perky' breasts, and it continues to ratify the belief that women's bodies are for the (viewing/handling) pleasure of males and of a constructed 'beauty' standard which excludes most women]

My mother bf'd 7 children, for a total of nearly 9 years. One of her sisters is single, never pregnant; the other bf'd 5 children, for a total of over 6 years. Mom is 60; her youngest sister (who nursed 5) is 52. Middle sister is 55. They are a similar height and weight (within 10 pounds of each other I think). And - drumroll please - their breasts look alike! They all sag equally, if one of them has 'perkier' breasts it is the youngest, and likely a result of her being a ranchwife and getting more weight-bearing exercise than the other two.

They have three female cousins (also sisters). The 42 year old has bf'd one child. Her build is very similar to my mom's and her sisters'. Her older sister bf'd one child. She has saggier breasts than her younger sister or her cousins. The eldest cousin (who is 50), has never been pregnant and has breasts which hang down to her hips. She hasn't worn a bra since the early 70's which may have contributed to this.

The generation *above* them - my grandma had 'perky-ish' breasts 'til she was in her seventies (she was small-breasted) despite nursing 4 of her 5 children. Her younger sister (cousins' mom) had saggy breasts. Her older sister (childless) had/has breasts exactly identical to my mom's eldest childless cousin (despite wearing a "good supportive bra" to prevent sagginess her whole life - Mom remembers her lecturing the girls about this).

So based on my anecdotal evidence -
A. All women will sag.
B. Genetics will play a factor in 'how' saggy.
C. Women who don't reproduce are MOST LIKELY OF ALL to sag.

****
What little research exists, however poor it is, does not show causation. Maybe we need more research. But in the meantime, I think the proper response to the "But breastfeeding makes breasts sag!" argument ought to be:

Oh, well, not a lot of research done but so far it doesn't look like it does; besides, it DOES reduce the risk of breast cancer significantly for mother and baby girls; and we're all going to sag one day regardless, aren't we?

NOT
"Oh, you're right, the girls will be tubular and repulsive but you'll have done the right thing for your babe and you could get surgery if you're concerned."

I have a vivid recollection of my anti-BF GMIL talking disparagingly about bf this summer. She told me that her MIL bf'd all nine children and was as a result, "flat as a board." She said her MIL was foolish and wore a starched undergarment to try to make it look like she still had breasts, but she didn't, she was completely "ruint." This, GMIL told us, was the reason that she didn't bf her children. She didn't want to lose her figure.

And as she tells me this, her breasts hang on each side of her protruding belly with more sag than any woman in my family has (other than the aforementioned childless cousin and aunt).

Why not quit fighting this stupid battle to try to look like a 16 year old girl, and embrace our womanhood??? We're supposed to get stretch marks and our bodies will bear the marks of pregnancy and more .... we are women, we're living our lives, of course our bodies will change. Why not be proud of it and love it?

[JoyfullySubversive]

Originally Posted by elanorh

Why not quit fighting this stupid battle to try to look like a 16 year old girl, and embrace our womanhood??? We're supposed to get stretch marks and our bodies will bear the marks of pregnancy and more .... we are women, we're living our lives, of course our bodies will change. Why not be proud of it and love it?

Because no one loves a woman with droopy boobs!!!!!!!!
Don't you read magazines or watch TV?
I mean just DUH.

Wouldn't it be great to get Pamela Anderson's take on the topic? I mean, while we're gathering research, I would like to know how she feels about her breasts after two pregnancies and extended nursing.

[honolula]

Originally Posted by ParisApril

honolula- I think you are missing everyone's point here. There are many causes for sagging breasts. No one is saying that breastfeeding didn't cause your sagging breasts. We are just saying there may be many other causes as well.
I will continue to correct people who say Breastfeeding was the single cause of their sagging.

I think you may need to read the thread over again.

[Arwyn]

elanorh

Thank you for that. Very well put.

[llamalluv]

Originally Posted by JoyfullySubversive

Because no one loves a woman with droopy boobs!!!!!!!!
Don't you read magazines or watch TV?
I mean just DUH.

You mean my husband is LYING to me?!



It is kind of sad that a certain segment of the population REALLY believes that.

[Meiri]

...Why not quit fighting this stupid battle to try to look like a 16 year old girl, and embrace our womanhood??? We're supposed to get stretch marks and our bodies will bear the marks of pregnancy and more .... we are women, we're living our lives, of course our bodies will change. Why not be proud of it and love it?

Bless you and thank-you!

[honolula]

Originally Posted by elanorh

Well, if anecdotal evidence is going to trump what paltry scientific research has been done in this area ....

[and let me note again that I think the 'perky breasts' argument is insulting to women since many of us never have had 'perky' breasts, and it continues to ratify the belief that women's bodies are for the (viewing/handling) pleasure of males and of a constructed 'beauty' standard which excludes most women]

My mother bf'd 7 children, for a total of nearly 9 years. One of her sisters is single, never pregnant; the other bf'd 5 children, for a total of over 6 years. Mom is 60; her youngest sister (who nursed 5) is 52. Middle sister is 55. They are a similar height and weight (within 10 pounds of each other I think). And - drumroll please - their breasts look alike! They all sag equally, if one of them has 'perkier' breasts it is the youngest, and likely a result of her being a ranchwife and getting more weight-bearing exercise than the other two.

They have three female cousins (also sisters). The 42 year old has bf'd one child. Her build is very similar to my mom's and her sisters'. Her older sister bf'd one child. She has saggier breasts than her younger sister or her cousins. The eldest cousin (who is 50), has never been pregnant and has breasts which hang down to her hips. She hasn't worn a bra since the early 70's which may have contributed to this.

The generation *above* them - my grandma had 'perky-ish' breasts 'til she was in her seventies (she was small-breasted) despite nursing 4 of her 5 children. Her younger sister (cousins' mom) had saggy breasts. Her older sister (childless) had/has breasts exactly identical to my mom's eldest childless cousin (despite wearing a "good supportive bra" to prevent sagginess her whole life - Mom remembers her lecturing the girls about this).

So based on my anecdotal evidence -
A. All women will sag.
B. Genetics will play a factor in 'how' saggy.
C. Women who don't reproduce are MOST LIKELY OF ALL to sag.

****
What little research exists, however poor it is, does not show causation. Maybe we need more research. But in the meantime, I think the proper response to the "But breastfeeding makes breasts sag!" argument ought to be:

Oh, well, not a lot of research done but so far it doesn't look like it does; besides, it DOES reduce the risk of breast cancer significantly for mother and baby girls; and we're all going to sag one day regardless, aren't we?

NOT
"Oh, you're right, the girls will be tubular and repulsive but you'll have done the right thing for your babe and you could get surgery if you're concerned."

I have a vivid recollection of my anti-BF GMIL talking disparagingly about bf this summer. She told me that her MIL bf'd all nine children and was as a result, "flat as a board." She said her MIL was foolish and wore a starched undergarment to try to make it look like she still had breasts, but she didn't, she was completely "ruint." This, GMIL told us, was the reason that she didn't bf her children. She didn't want to lose her figure.

And as she tells me this, her breasts hang on each side of her protruding belly with more sag than any woman in my family has (other than the aforementioned childless cousin and aunt).

Why not quit fighting this stupid battle to try to look like a 16 year old girl, and embrace our womanhood??? We're supposed to get stretch marks and our bodies will bear the marks of pregnancy and more .... we are women, we're living our lives, of course our bodies will change. Why not be proud of it and love it?

I agree with everything in your post. I want to point out that I haven't made any value judgements on breast shape, here or anywhere. I think my breasts are pretty beautiful, and even if I didn't, I wouldn't regret having and nursing my children.
I'm all for fighting social constructs that place value on child-like appearance in women, but that isn't what this conversation is about.

[Arwyn]

One of her points is this:

So based on my anecdotal evidence -
A. All women will sag.
B. Genetics will play a factor in 'how' saggy.
C. Women who don't reproduce are MOST LIKELY OF ALL to sag.

****
What little research exists, however poor it is, does not show causation. Maybe we need more research. But in the meantime, I think the proper response to the "But breastfeeding makes breasts sag!" argument ought to be:

Oh, well, not a lot of research done but so far it doesn't look like it does; besides, it DOES reduce the risk of breast cancer significantly for mother and baby girls; and we're all going to sag one day regardless, aren't we?

Which I fully agree with.

I would love to see well designed, large scale studies on all aspects of full-term breastfeeding (although the health and psychological effects on mother and child are way, way ahead of this particular issue in importance), and if one of those says that breastfeeding causes further sagging, then I will perfectly happily address the issue as you suggest.

In the meantime what we have is anecdotal evidence that says breastfeeding causes further sagging, and anecdotal evidence that says it doesn't. Since there's no conclusive evidence, and nothing "everyone knows", I see no reason to encourage the belief that breastfeeding will "ruin" one's breasts, and many reasons to discourage it.

[JoyfullySubversive]

Originally Posted by llamalluv

You mean my husband is LYING to me?!

I know, mine is a big fat liar too!:

Originally Posted by llamalluv

It is kind of sad that a certain segment of the population REALLY believes that.

Yeah, well they can my !