What would you do ?????

[babydanielsmom]

I need some advice....please. I am a sahm with a 5 month old ds. I also watch a 3 yo in our home, and said 3 yo is out of control. We are going to practice gd with our ds, but boy's parents practice spanking/timeouts. The 3 yo is constantly yelling, spitting in the floor, and is actually saying curse words ! He has a complete "meltdown" if I try to tell him no. I suppose what made me post this is the other day 3 yo was talking to my ds ( ds was is his bouncy seat) and 3 yo ... in the blink of an eye.... shoves a gummy bear down ds throat. Thank goodness I was within 2 ft of ds b/c ds started gagging, but I was able to say relatively calm and get the gummy bear out. This scared me not only b/c of ds choking, but what was really scary is that the 3 yo didn't seem to care when I explain that he could've hurt ds :. I'm still shaking from it. So I am wondering ... would gd work on another child that is being parented in a different way? My other option is to stop watching the 3 yo. I really want to help this kid (he doesn't get very much attention at home), but I don't know what to do. I just can't get through to him. I have read all the gd books, but nothing seems to work. This is not typical 3 yo behavior ... is it? Btw, I should mention that the 3 yo is my nephew. b/c I am a sahm I am almost expected to watch him b/c my dh's sister & husband tell me they can't afford daycare. Help, I don't know what to do? Sorry for such a long post.

[LilyGrace]

I think GD does work on children parented a different way, though there can be some unexpected issues - like you said. Children do learn the different rules in different places with few problems. While I've never seen a preschooler shove a gummy bear down another's throat, it wouldn't surprise me. They're still impulsive little creatures. And they don't care that it hurts or want to listen to an explanation of why it hurts. Too long, it's over with.

I believe (perhaps wrongly), that when a child hurts others he is not happy with himself. And to be happy with oneself, one has to have confidence and abilities to foster.
Have you ever read the Piggle-wiggle books? One thing that struck me even as a child is that even though there's all these issues at home, Mrs. P's house is more of a safe haven. There they are allowed to be independent and useful, while at home it's all about rules, rules, rules, and telling them they're too little or doing it wrong. Mrs. P seems to have complete faith in them and, god bless her, always looks for the positive intent - which makes a huge difference in how the children respond to her. Breaking a window wasn't treated as a catastrophe, it was a learning moment. Having a child take apart everything on the farm earned him praise about how handy he is - giving him the courage to put it all back together no matter how long it took.

Granted, a 3yo is not going to be very useful and self-reliant, but there are things he can do that help his confidence and feel less 'no's. A Montessori in the home book is a good place to start with that. As far as the spitting and yelling, I'd just make it a logical consequence: There are the rags. Yelling is allowed in the bedroom only. Indoor voice(said in a whisper).

[Shantimama]

What a challenging situation - especially the part about your SIL and BIL expecting you to care for their son.

Three is a challenging age for many children. My dh and I have always practiced GD and we still found 3 to be the hardest age of all, and that was with two years of growing into that stage with our children! Having a little one come in who does not receive a lot of attention and is disciplined with spankings and time outs is an even bigger challenge.

We always found that creating lots of "time in" moments helped a lot. Scooping up one of our children into a big hug and then playing something they like, reading a story, singing a silly song together before they got into "trouble" headed off a lot of difficult moments. Making things right after the fact was a lot more work than being proactive and meeting needs the child couldn't articulate before they acted them out. It meant keeping them busy and engaged as much as possible. That prevented a lot of mishaps and also "taught" them how to have fun playing and engaging with other people in appropriate ways. Those things do not automatically come to all children in all situations.

Using gentle discipline does not mean that you cannot be firm and clear in your expectations. The rights of all people involved need to be respected, not just the child being disciplined. Learning how to manage that takes time, but it is an essential part of growing into a healthy, compassionate human being, which for us is one of the goals of attachment parenting and gentle discipline. Your nephew probably won't like being taught how to be safe with your baby and it will take time for him to learn, but that doesn't mean you need to use something other than GD. It can work with him, but it is going to mean a lot more work for you if you continue to care for him.

What does he like to play? Three year olds are great imitators. One of mine went through a spitting on the floor stage. Every time it happened I said, "Oh! It looks like it is time for us to clean the floors!" and handed her a rag and I got one too. I would wipe a spot on the floor near her mess and would show her how to mop it up. then we would quickly move onto some other activity we could do side by side like that, like mopping a counter, or making a tower together. It was a way to teach her that messes need to be cleaned up and after we had had a few successful (and fun) times cleaning spit off the floor together I would hand her the rag and as we cleaned up I said, "Spitting on the floor is not okay in our house.Spitting is for the sink, so unless you are brushing your teeth, don't spit!" After that every time she spat I would say, "Hey - I don't see a toothbrush anywhere, no spitting!" and the whole spitting thing stopped in less than a week.

Do your SIL and BIL pay you anything for caring for their son? Just because they are family does not obligate you to provide daycare for free or next to nothing. If you choose to care for him, you have every right to the same treatment that a fully paid day care provider would get, including the right to refuse him if he cannot blend into your current arrangement. If you were not home with a new baby and you were working, what would they do? What arrangements did they have before your baby was born? They can ask you to care for him but they need to be aware that your doing so is a gift, not a right they are entitled to.

[babydanielsmom]

Thank you for the advice & support. I need it. Yes, I get paid ( if you could call it that) a whopping $20 a day for 11 hrs of babysitting. I'm probably lucky to get that b/c my bil's great grandmother was doing it for nothing : They say they can't afford to pay more, but can somehow afford to go to parties on the weekend while my mil babysits....don't get me started on that issue. I can't believe I didn't think of letting him clean up the spit ! Maybe all of this is just gonna take some time....and lots of patience

[babydanielsmom]

Sorry, one more question. Is piggle wiggle the title of the book or a character in it?

[Shantimama]

Wow - I was paying $25 a day for in home day care for my ds eleven years ago. $20 does not sound like much. Could you find out what the going rate is in your area and then determine a fee you feel comfortable with that many hours? If they are saying they can't afford more but it doesn't look that way to you, I think you shoud set a fee and let them decide what to do from there.

What happens if you or your ds gets sick? When you work outside of the home you can usually call in sick if you need to - can you do that with them if you need some time off?

Poor little guy - he is apart from his parents for 11 hours a day during the week and then they spend the weekend going to parties. He is lucky to have you in his life - but you also need to make sure you take care of your own and your little ones' needs first.

[LilyGrace]

Originally Posted by babydanielsmom

Sorry, one more question. Is piggle wiggle the title of the book or a character in it?

She's both. They're books about this little old lady living in an upside-down house who has all these magical cures - but half her 'magic' is GD. Well, at least in the first 3-4 books. Betty Macdonald's daughter found stories that went unfinished and published them in a new-ish book called Happy Birthday Mrs. Piggle Wiggle!, but it's all magic and poorly done. The originals are so much better.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Shantimama

If you were not home with a new baby and you were working, what would they do? What arrangements did they have before your baby was born? They can ask you to care for him but they need to be aware that your doing so is a gift, not a right they are entitled to.

I second this!

Honestly, it sounds like you are doing this simply because you're "expected" to as a SAHM. I'm not saying you don't care about your nephew -- I can tell that you do and that you want to help him. But this isn't something you really want to do. You'd rather be enjoying your own child -- not watching like a hawk to make sure some other child doesn't shove gummy bears down his throat.

And since the $20 a day doesn't seem like much to you, it sounds like the babysitting isn't filling any financial need of your family's. I think it's great to want to help other families -- but my personal philosophy as a mother of small children, is that any help I give to others shouldn't take away from my own family. Free babysitting is only acceptable if it fills some social need of my children's -- and even if the babysitting were paid, I still wouldn't do it if it took away from my children in any way.

I'm hearing people talk about the importance of firmness in Gentle Discipline, and I agree. Maybe you can look at your next conversation with your brother and sister-in-law as an exercise in firmness?

I mean, if you really want to keep babysitting your nephew, then by all means do it! I agree with the other posters, that Gentle Discipline can work with children who aren't being raised that way at home. So I'm not saying the situation can't work -- just that I don't think you should feel obligated to babysit, simply because you're a SAHM.

[captain optimism]

It sounds like a terrible situation. First of all you have to negotiate an hourly rate for babysitting that is the going rate in your area. Find out what that is. Do not allow your SIL and BIL to do this. It's not right.

No matter what kind of discipline they practice in their home, three year olds have poor impulse control and they want a lot of attention. I had one, only one, very mellow three year old and I had to be on top of him and his needs pretty much constantly.

What were those needs?

1. Three meals a day plus at least two snacks. The snacks should be meal foods, like fruits, vegetables, protein food. Keep that blood sugar even! If he can't behave well, do not let him have candy! No gummi bears in the house with a three year old who spits! Not every kid reacts badly to sugar (and food dyes!) but some really do.

2. Playtime outside or active indoor play if the weather is bad. Sometimes just being outside was enough to make things better.

3. A nap every day up until he stopped needing them, and man was that ever tricky to determine!

3. Quiet solo play--Legos, blocks, crayons, paper. My son has a great attention span, but this child might not, so you have to think about him as an individual. We just had to provide crafts materials for my ds and he would come up with his own projects, but some children need more guidance than that.

4. Stories--weekly trips to the library, etc.

At some point we started to do preschool a few mornings a week, and that was great for him, but obviously you aren't in control of that decision, since your SIL and BIL would rather pay you peanuts than pay for preschool.

The more stuff you provide for him to do during the day, the fewer opportunities for experimenting with ways to get your attention.

About no and meltdowns: Do not say no if you don't have to, but when you really have to say no to something, say it and just let him melt down. It won't hurt him. It's just emotion. He'll be okay, and so will you. Don't say no to every little thing, because there are plenty of real limits you have to set with someone who doesn't yet understand the consequences of his actions. (As is obvious from your story!)

One good thing people say to melty/tantrumy kids sometimes is "I'm sorry you are disappointed" and another one I said sometimes was, "If you have to have a tantrum about this, this is an okay place to do it." If he threatens to tantrum somewhere that you can't handle it, like the grocery store, move him as fast as you can!

HTH

[texmati]

totally off topic, but I loved mrs piggle wiggle growing up!!! I just googled her, and I cant belive she's 50 years old. I woman before her time, I must say.

[singin'intherain]

Why isn't the grandmother taking care of him anymore?

I think you should seriously consider whether or not you want to do this. I don't think his behavior sounds all that unusual for a three year old, but I know from experience that it's just harder to deal with this kind of behavior if it's not your kid. Especially when you have reason to resent doing it, as you do. I do know that while you may be doing his parents a giant favor, if you can't respond with affection and patience most of the time, you aren't doing him any favors, and he would be better off in a day care that was decent. I think. I guess it depends on where they take him.

As far as his doing stuff like spitting, throwing tantrums, and doing harmful experiments with the baby, don't judge him for it. If you have a newborn baby, that stuff seems horrible and you don't believe your little sweetie will ever do that. I'm not saying he will, but I know he will open your eyes later on in some ways. Goodness knows that's what happened to me!

[moondiapers]

Yes GD will work, but it will take time for him to get used to and trust your methods. I'd pat him down when he gets to your house to make sure he doesn't have any food or choking hazzards stashed on him....then ALL FOOD must be eatten at the table or highchair. Make at least one room extra extra safe so there isn't anything in there that he can hurt, hurt himself with, or hurt another child with. There are good soft toys out, or at least lightweight toys.....like hollow building bricks made from cardboard etc. And I'd make sure he doesn't have access to your son, period.....at least until the GD is actually working for him.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by moondiapers

And I'd make sure he doesn't have access to your son, period.....at least until the GD is actually working for him.

I agree! I don't know if your 5mo is showing interest in exploring on the floor yet -- but if not, then I'd just keep him on you in a sling, on your lap, or in your arms whatever you're doing.

When he starts wanting down on the floor, then you'll need to be down there with him, to keep him safe from the 3yo. But maybe if your brother's paying you decent money by then, you can pay someone to come in and do some housework! Which would free you up to just hang out with the kids.

[babydanielsmom]

sorry double post

[babydanielsmom]

Ah, no house work. I like that idea . BTW,the reason the grandmother is no longer babysitting him is b/c her dh has cancer and is no longer able to care for him. I really appreciate all the comments/ advice. I will be putting may of them into practice. I love coming here to MDC to get advice from mommas w/ more experience.

[One_Girl]

I would tell them that you won't watch him because he doesn't care that he hurts other people and it is a dangerous situation for you to put your baby in. You might give them a few examples of how he has melted down or hurt the baby and how he doesn't seem to care and give him a month to show improvement but if he doesn't improve after that adjustment period you should tell them no. They may be very capable of coming up with another arrangement.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

I would tell them that you won't watch him because he doesn't care that he hurts other people and it is a dangerous situation for you to put your baby in. You might give them a few examples of how he has melted down or hurt the baby and how he doesn't seem to care and give him a month to show improvement but if he doesn't improve after that adjustment period you should tell them no. They may be very capable of coming up with another arrangement.

I think I'd also quit watching the child -- but rather than presenting it as the child's fault (which concerns me because I don't know but what these parents might take it out on him, for making them lose their cushy situation of not having to pay as much), I'd just present it as not working for me and my family.

Giving a 3yo a month to show improvement seems like a lot of pressure, and a basically lose/lose situation, since small children's behavior is really an outgrowth of how they're feeling inside.

[mamazee]

Your family has to be your priority. If you can swing the loss of income, I'd stop doing it.

If not, I like captain optimism's post a lot.

[mommy2maya]

Ok, first off, many 3yo don't realize that you can't feed a baby anything, especially one who doesn't have a baby sibling. It sounds like most of all you are frustrated with how much, or rather, how little you are being paid. If you are resentful of this, you will just carry that resentfulness over to the child, which certainly doesn't help anything at all, if anything that resentfulness magnifies everything the child does.

I'd honestly say that the child needs the one on one attention. I'd not let him have free access to the baby, not because he is a mini-criminal, but because he doesn't know any better. 3 is merely steps above a baby.

Honestly, the rate they are paying you isn't terribly less than going rate at a daycare center for full time care. In home care, especially with relatives, is generally less expensive than in a center. I think that it isn't very realistic to expect someone to pay hourly for full time care, and especially not minimum wage or anything higher.

I really recommend that you tell your bil & sil you can't do it anymore, and move on.

[babydanielsmom]

Just a quick update.... things seem to be getting some better w/ Zach (the three yo). I've been practicing many of the suggestions posted here, and alot of them seem to be working I'm very sorry if I seemed like I resented keeping him. That is not how I feel at all. I was just having one of those weeks that everything seemed to be going wrong, and I was really frusterated when I posted, KWIM. I've talked to his mom and she has agreed to cut down on all the sugary snacks (this seemed to help the most). Also Zach had a doctors appt. Friday and they found out that he has pinworms. I'm thinking that this could explain some of his other issues. I read somwhere that kids w/ pinworms can be more aggressive. Thanks again