help - horrified at sons behavior

[happy1nluv]

Ok, Nic is 33 months (he'll be 3 in May). Joe is 10 1/2 months (he'll be 1 in March) ... Sometimes they get along so well...Nic will give Joe his sippy if he gets his - he'll give his brother hugs, and amuses him in the car when he's getting cranky (sometimes on his own, sometimes after im trying it from the front) ... BUT then... sometimes he'll hit him for no reason (and then tell me "i hit baby head" etc... and if Joe's crying (esp if I can't see Joe at the moment) Nic thinks he's supposed to push him down. (I have NO clue where he got that from, and nothing has dented the idea yet) BUT the incident from today has me worried. Joe poo'd, so i was changing his diaper on the floor ... Nic decides to throw three hard plastic balls at his brother (they had weight to them). He wouldn't listen when i told him no, tried to redirect, etc. (and then yelled)...but the look on his face... he was smirking like he was enjoying watching his brother scream and in pain. It gave me chills. DH thinks I'm just being a drama queen and that he was probably just trying to get a reaction out of me (he definitely got one!) but he wasn't there... (oh, and i didn't actually do anything to him to punish him for it - dh thinks i should have thrown him in his room for a timeout but, by the time i got joe consoled, then changed... i don't think that nic would have made the connection with "if i throw things and hurt my brother i get sent to my room to cool down" yanno? (not to mention that im not convinced that will work even if executed perfectly, but i digress)

Would you worry?? What would you do?

[littlecityfarmer]

Didn't want to read and not post... Has your older DS done things like that before? Did he realize his actions would hurt the baby? My DS did something similar to infant DD the other day (threw a hard toy *to* her, but without warning, beaned her in the eye socket with it and left a bruise), not really intentionally. I consoled the baby, and when she had calmed down, sat DS down and asked him why he had thrown the toy and explained that she had been hurt... My DS is quite a bit older than yours, though (4 1/2)... Not sure how DD1 would have reacted (she's the same age as your DS)!

[laoxinat]

Hey Mama!
Well, I wouldn't worry, but I also wouldn't pay it too much attn either. My SOP around this kind of thing is to attend to the child who got hurt first, giving him words for his feelings, and so the the 'thrower' hears it. If confronted directly, I think it's just human nature to deny responsibilty,esp at this age. Often when the aggressor (okay I don't like that word but it's late now) sees and hears the kid they hurt get soothed, it kind of takes his sail out of the wind, KWIM? It definitely should be addressed, but at 3, it seems to work best when the correction is somewhat indirect and more energetic than verbal. At least in the heat of the moment. I might also ask him, "is it scary to know you can really hurt someone?" If he says no, just respond with "oh" and leave it be. More often I find that children become sad and even a litle tearful, though. This is good, as it demonstrates they are starting to understand that others hurt, too, and therein lie the seeds of compassion .

[LynnS6]

Two year olds don't have much ability to take another person's perspective -- they're still pretty much living in their own heads. If they think it's fun, so does everyone else! Remember, this is the age where they play hide and seek by hiding their eyes, or telling you "I'm going to go hide behind the couch!"

I think you handled it fine. I probably would have stopped changing the diaper and reached up to prevent the throws after the first one. We do very limited time outs for exactly this kind of thing - basically the child is levitated to their room and asked to stay there until they can be gentle. Given that your son is still 2, I would probably have plopped him on the couch, attended to younger brother, and then put the balls away since clearly he can't yet control his impulses with them.

[nathansmum]

One thing that I noticed with my ds at that age was that he truely did think some things were funny and really didn't realise that it would hurt. I suspect you think his look was devious, whereas I do wonder if he just did want a reaction without the understanding of pain inflicted. What I was able to do with my ds was to ask him gently in a learning/educating kind of way "hey, do you realise that that really hurts? I'm not sure that you do, do you want to try bomping that ball against your own head to see what happens?" My ds in his total innocence actually tried out a few things like this (bit his own arm once and donked a plastic plate against his head that he was about to throw like a frisbee across the room at his sister) and realised from feeling it that it did in fact hurt despite his being dubious it would. I never said it in a mean way or making him dish out punishment to himself, but in a kind sort of way. After the first few times of him realising what that meant when I asked him to stop and try his own action out - all I needed to do at other times was to ask him and he would instantly understand.

I'm not sure where on the GD spectrum that idea fits, but you could also just hold the item against his head to show the heaviness and feeling of it and it might be enough for him to register it as being a hard thing.

In the situation you had, I also would have gotten up after the first ball and removed him from the room. It doesn't need to be time out, but just a way of keeping others safe from harm.

[Embee]

This article covers a lot, but this subject in particular has some wonderful insights:

http://www.naomialdort.com/articles4.html

The best and hang in there, mama.

Em

[nextcommercial]

I wouldn't worry too much. Yes, at almost three, he knows this hurts the baby, but he doesn't ACTUALLY KNOW... By that I mean, he can't think about how MUCH it hurts. He's not putting himself in the baby's place. He knows it's not O.K though.

The baby frustrates Nic. Maybe Joe doesn't respond to Nic the way he responds to you, so Nic gets a little annoyed. But, it doesn't mean he doesn't love him or even like him. He just doesn't like him all the time.

Punishing Nic by putting him in his room will only make him more annoyed. BUT, if you are SO mad at Nic, and you can't hide your feelings, it's much better to put him in his room before saying something you will feel bad about later. Sometimes it's US that needs the time out.

[hopefulfaith]

Oh, mama. Big hugs to you. Mine are 30 months (ds) and 15 months (dd) right now. I have had the worst week and have been having nightmares that ds is going to grow up completely devoid of compassion, empathy, and sympathy and is going to be a professional sociopath...all based on the way he is treating his sister lately. I could have written much of your post.

I have been doing therapeutic time-outs ("Come on, come over here and sit on mama's lap for a few minutes until you feel better..."), punitive time-outs ("Sit in the chair, please, until the timer goes off..."), and straight out scolding. I'm trying to GD it out - comforting sister and letting ds overhear it... Nothing is working. And I'm with you - half the time I can't truly address it because I'm not sure he's making the connection between what he did and what I am having him do because of it - so it has been a half-hearted 'hug your sister and tell her you are sorry that you hurt her' as we go on playing. To be followed again by the same hurtful action two - three- four minutes later. Followed again by me asking for apologies, hugs, and telling big brother that what he is doing is hurting his sister. And I'm not sure he really gives a damn most of the time. I think that is what is bothering me the most.

So I am sending big huge mama-love to you and following this thread closely myself. And praying that my son really does turn out better than he has been this week. And double-praying that I can appropriately parent through it. Hugs to you - hopefully we'll get through this.

[nonibradshaw]

Originally Posted by nathansmum

One thing that I noticed with my ds at that age was that he truely did think some things were funny and really didn't realise that it would hurt.

I would have to second that and add at ages almost 2 and 4 we still have similar occurences. We dont do time outs but we encourage DS1 (or whomever the offender is) to "make it right" with his brother something like "it's time to make it right, that ball hurt brother. Could you please come over and make sure he is alright and and give him gentle touches". My hope is that it's giving both boys some coping skills/stratagey. Good luck!

[Warda_Rose]

I wouldn't worry that DS1 is a "bad seed or anything. I agree that he doesn't really get it yet. Just that he gets a reaction-- a really big one too-- from doing those things.

[Bird Girl]

My son will be 3 in May also, and what I will say is that he has NO impulse control. So if you have to clean up any hard or heavy toys for the time being, go ahead and do it--that way, when he gets the inclination to smash the baby in the head, he won't be able to do him any harm.

And no, he's not a bad seed. Just a typical Two!

[KBecks]

Originally Posted by happy1nluv

Ok, Nic is 33 months (he'll be 3 in May). Joe is 10 1/2 months (he'll be 1 in March) ... Sometimes they get along so well...Nic will give Joe his sippy if he gets his - he'll give his brother hugs, and amuses him in the car when he's getting cranky (sometimes on his own, sometimes after im trying it from the front) ... BUT then... sometimes he'll hit him for no reason (and then tell me "i hit baby head" etc... and if Joe's crying (esp if I can't see Joe at the moment) Nic thinks he's supposed to push him down. (I have NO clue where he got that from, and nothing has dented the idea yet) BUT the incident from today has me worried. Joe poo'd, so i was changing his diaper on the floor ... Nic decides to throw three hard plastic balls at his brother (they had weight to them). He wouldn't listen when i told him no, tried to redirect, etc. (and then yelled)...but the look on his face... he was smirking like he was enjoying watching his brother scream and in pain. It gave me chills. DH thinks I'm just being a drama queen and that he was probably just trying to get a reaction out of me (he definitely got one!) but he wasn't there... (oh, and i didn't actually do anything to him to punish him for it - dh thinks i should have thrown him in his room for a timeout but, by the time i got joe consoled, then changed... i don't think that nic would have made the connection with "if i throw things and hurt my brother i get sent to my room to cool down" yanno? (not to mention that im not convinced that will work even if executed perfectly, but i digress)

Would you worry?? What would you do?

We do time outs for intentional hitting and pushing, if I see it happen. If I'm in another room and don't know if it's intentional or accidental then there's no time out but a warning and I'll stay to supervise. I'll usually pick up the younger and try to get them doing something.

When I give a time out, I tell the child exactly why they are getting a time out, and then at the end, I tell them again why they got the time out and then I ask for an apology and we hug and kiss and go back to playing. We do it Supernanny style. I really like that it ends with a positive hug and kiss and reassurance that the child is loved and accepted.

[BonMaman]

Originally Posted by hopefulfaith

Oh, mama. Big hugs to you. Mine are 30 months (ds) and 15 months (dd) right now. I have had the worst week and have been having nightmares that ds is going to grow up completely devoid of compassion, empathy, and sympathy and is going to be a professional sociopath...all based on the way he is treating his sister lately. I could have written much of your post.

I have been doing therapeutic time-outs ("Come on, come over here and sit on mama's lap for a few minutes until you feel better..."), punitive time-outs ("Sit in the chair, please, until the timer goes off..."), and straight out scolding. I'm trying to GD it out - comforting sister and letting ds overhear it... Nothing is working. And I'm with you - half the time I can't truly address it because I'm not sure he's making the connection between what he did and what I am having him do because of it - so it has been a half-hearted 'hug your sister and tell her you are sorry that you hurt her' as we go on playing. To be followed again by the same hurtful action two - three- four minutes later. Followed again by me asking for apologies, hugs, and telling big brother that what he is doing is hurting his sister. And I'm not sure he really gives a damn most of the time. I think that is what is bothering me the most.

So I am sending big huge mama-love to you and following this thread closely myself. And praying that my son really does turn out better than he has been this week. And double-praying that I can appropriately parent through it. Hugs to you - hopefully we'll get through this.

Another family in a similar conundrum, trying so hard to do right by both lads ...