Please Help Me Understand

[pajamajes]

I do not understand gentle discipline. I DO understand not spanking and not screaming etc. I also don't want to teach my child to do everything someone else tells her to do. I don't want her to be a conformist or not think for herself. But am I wrong to say that some things are just not acceptable? I think that deserves discipline. With older children, like teens and even younger than that, talking about why she did something and reasons why it is wrong would be my first route of discipline because she is old enough to understand reasons for her actions and what is acceptable and what isn't and why. But a child from ages 2 to around 6 or 7(depending on the child of course) does things that are not acceptable. If they are allowed to repeat those things without consequence, what is to stop them from doing so? Younger children don't understand what is better for them. For example, a 2 year old cannot process if they run out in the road they could get killed, and I don't want her to learn that lesson from experience. I also believe in being respectful. I have witnessed too many children hitting parents and cursing at them, etc. Telling a child to stop a behavior isn't always effective. And doesn't repeating your request 15 times or every day just teach the child that they really don't have to listen to you. Children pitching fits in grocery stores or malls because they can't have something they want is on of my biggest pet peeves. I mean throwing themselves on the floor kicking and screaming. I cannot tolerate that kind of behavior. From what I have read when lurking on this forum, the proper response to this would be to get on her level and say something to the effect of "I understand that you are mad that you can't have that whatever it is, but you can't scream and cry and roll around on the floor." What if that doesn't work, which I seriously doubt it will. Am I missing a key point? I usually am, lol. BTW, I in no way an advocate of spanking. However, at this point in time, I do believe a time-out with an explanation as to the reason they are in time-out and a talk about it afterwards should be most effective in those situations where the child's actions are just not going to be tolerated. WDYT? I appreciate any help in understanding your views. I actually am a very open-minded person, lol.

[gabysmom617]

Crap. I wrote you a book and mdc ate it.

I basically said by the time a child gets to be toddler age, you know them enough to avoid most issues. Like, my 2 1/2 year old, I pretty much know that I can't trust him in the parking lot. I know this because when I'm walking outside, in the parking lot, anywhere, and I'm holding his had, he is straining against me, rearing to go. I know this because if I turn his hand aloose in a safe spot outside, he's like a wild buck. It doesn't have to get to the point of me having to spank him (or some such) to teach him not to run away from me out into the parking lot or street. He is always restrained in such situations. (Stroller, sling, holding my hand, etc.) Right now he can't understand the ramifications of him running into the parking lot. Right now, I know his level of comprehension on this issue, and he can't comprehend it right now. So until he can, he has to hold my hand. Kids comprehend things and various different ages. My nephew, who is 2 weeks older than my child has been very good about staying close to you for quite some time now. My child has a bit longer to go before he gets to that level, and it's ok. I'll just "know" when I can trust him not to run out into the street or in the parking lot. No harshness is really necessary.

As for the tantruming thing, for me, it also falls into the same category of knowing my child. I know what he likes, loves, and doesn't like. For one thing, he loves wheels. Putting him in the cart or in a stroller at a store is enough to keep him amused for quite some time. When that gets old, I have stashed goodies in my purse, things I know he's particularly fond of that I can offer him when he gets antsy, or too focused on something he can't have. If that gets old, I have other techniques I use to amuse him in the store, (taking him out of the stroller/cart for a break or somesuch...) I know what things are $1 or less that I can get for him to hold in the store that I don't mind him having. (He loves holding a banana...) By the time all that gets old, I'm on my way out the door anyway...It's not even something I have to think about. I just know my child this well (most mothers do) and it just all comes naturally.

I also know when my child is getting tired, and it is very rare (barring on an emergency?) that I leave out of the house when an impending nap is coming. For me, to do so is insanity and is practically begging for heck in a store.

Basically, you have to be in tune with your child. If you are in tune with your kid, then you can pretty much guage when a tantrum is coming and many/most times you can ward off one before it's full fledged.

My child rarely tantrums in a store anymore unless I blatantly ignore what he's putting down. I'm ignoring the fact that he's tired, I'm just ignoring/not acknowledging that he wants something that he can't have, and redirecting that, or something of the like. It's like a dialogue with a nonverbal person. You'd be mad too if you were trying to tell somebody something and they were ignoring you and you KNEW they knew what you wanted.

I'm still learning a lot about GD, and am by no means an expert, but I pretty much have those too scenarios downpat for now. Maybe it will get harder when my child reaches 3. But I understand his verbal and nonverbal demands and acknowledge them and redirect him to something else if I have to, and he is ok. Even if he can't have what he wants, he just wants me to tell him that I know he's sad, and now we talk about it, and then he gets over his (rare) tantrums MUCH quicker when I simply let him express to me (verbally or crying) how sad he is, and tell him it's ok.

It's harder some times than others, but so far that's what I'm getting out of GD.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

Crap. I wrote you a book and mdc ate it.

OT: Often, if you select the "back" arrow, you can retrieve the post before cyberspace evaporates it. Nowadays, I copy my post before selecting "preview" or "post", since the server is slow.

HTH,
Pat

[alegna]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

I mean throwing themselves on the floor kicking and screaming. I cannot tolerate that kind of behavior. From what I have read when lurking on this forum, the proper response to this would be to get on her level and say something to the effect of "I understand that you are mad that you can't have that whatever it is, but you can't scream and cry and roll around on the floor." What if that doesn't work, which I seriously doubt it will.

I'll answer this question in answer to your bigger question. In the fit-throwing in public example, what happens here is that I pick dd up (kicking and screaming if need-be) and carry her out. (she's 3.5 fwiw)

I don't believe in punishments as a rule.

-Angela

[EviesMom]

The kicking and screaming routine we just did today. So today in the choc shop after we picked out valentine candy, dd decided she needed another gift for grandpa's bday this weekend. I suggested some items, she wanted a giant box of candy. I might have been able to work with her and choose something reasonable budget and gift wise, but I had a throbbing headache and she melted down, screaming. I said "Screaming does not get you anything. We'll come back tomorrow," lifted her up (carrying ds in the carrier no less), and carried her out of the shop. Talked to her a short distance up the street about not screaming, listening and discussing... I don't think GD means never having limits! We'll go back tomorrow when she isn't hungry (we were on our way to get breakfast at a cafe) and get a gift.

[mrspineau]

I think that GD means different things for different people. For me it is about approaching any disciplinary act with love and respect. No yelling, hitting, or harsh words. (words that are demeaning, humiliating, mean, etc.) Instead of "no because I say so" it's "no because let me explain what will happen if you do that" and sometimes you don't even have to say no at all if you just use explanation. I think that with young children if there are things that you don't want them to do you almost need to learn to read them so that you can prevent the situation from happening before it even has a chance. Pay attention to their expressions and body language so that you can almost figure out what the wheels in their little heads are turning.

[famousmockngbrd]

Gentle Discipline is a HUGE catch-all term that means a whole spectrum of things, IME. But at the heart of it is a desire to respect children and teach and nurture them with the dignity all human beings deserve. Of course the debate continues on how best to do that.

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

the proper response to this would be to get on her level and say something to the effect of "I understand that you are mad that you can't have that whatever it is, but you can't scream and cry and roll around on the floor." What if that doesn't work, which I seriously doubt it will. lol.

That probably won't work in the way you think you want it to work. I think you want that tantrum and all other tantrums to stop.

If that's what you want to happen..there is nothing that I can think of off the top of my head that "works"

What is happening here is that you are just doing part of the process...validating their feelings. What you are saying only serves to help them understand that these big feelings(that are very scarey to them) are ok.

Before and after this a lot of things happened. Mom was getting attached and working on the relationship. She knows her child. When her child had that meltdown there was a reason. Child wanted something and couldn't have it, just couldn't cope with that for whatever reason(tired, hungry, temperament) and melted down.

After the tantrum mom talked to child..."you had some big feelings, I'm sorry we had to leave the store but we have to be quieter in stores blah blah"

and then next time there was planning for the success "packing a snack, going after nap, leaving child with daddy if it wasn't a good time for kiddo to be in a very stimulating store with lots of temptations etc."

and then there is the whole making sure that at home they feel safe, loved, happy, valued.

There is a whole process that involves understanding the developmental abilities of a child(which varies from child to child) the temperament of the child(again varies) and of course the temperament of the mom. We get to set a few reasonable boundaries too.

And a most important part is learning to accept that there is no perfect parenting, there is only an ideal we can strive for and we just have to learn as we go along.

I jokingly refer to my oldest as my guinea pig child because I made so many mistakes early on when I was anew parent. yet she's turning out awesome because I learned enough and we have a strong relationship and we can fix it if we mess up. Throw guilt out. It's useless and messes up our parenting more than any of the other mistakes we make.

You say "what if it doesn't work?"

What if yelling doesn't work? What if punishement doesn't work? There are no guarantees anything will actually work.

But I am loading my eggs into the basket that says that a strong relationship with your child will make ALL the difference in the long run.

Oh..yeah..and that's also part of it. A great deal of my parenting deals with the long run rather than the here and now.

Fixing it now might be easier but fixing it for the long run will definitely be better.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

But am I wrong to say that some things are just not acceptable?

You are absolutely right. I think it is very important that kids know what is socially acceptable and what is not. I think they need to know what the boundaries are, and that sometimes they need our help to be able to follow those boundaries.

With older children, like teens and even younger than that, talking about why she did something and reasons why it is wrong would be my first route of discipline because she is old enough to understand reasons for her actions and what is acceptable and what isn't and why. But a child from ages 2 to around 6 or 7(depending on the child of course) does things that are not acceptable. If they are allowed to repeat those things without consequence, what is to stop them from doing so? Younger children don't understand what is better for them.

My ds is 3.5, and he can definitely understand explanations along with instructions. I don't just tell him "It's unsafe to run in the road." I also give him instructions to go with that "Stay right beside me." I use a no nonsense voice. He is well aware that it's unsafe to go into the road, or to go out of my sight in a store. He is quite reliable in both cases.
He trusts that I have good reasons for what I say (well, I assume he does), and that I will work on finding acceptable alternatives if I can.

I absolutely do not allow hitting. I don't allow ds to even play hit me (Dp doesn't mind it). Sure, he tried it out in the past, but the phases were quite short. There were no consequences, other than an unhappy mama. I explained, made my boundary clear, and gave him socially acceptable ways of expressing the impulse he was trying to express.

BTW, I in no way an advocate of spanking. However, at this point in time, I do believe a time-out with an explanation as to the reason they are in time-out and a talk about it afterwards should be most effective in those situations where the child's actions are just not going to be tolerated. WDYT?

I think time outs (and any punishment, except perhaps for related consequences) hinder those situations. I think, at best, they teach kids to "behave" for self centered reasons. The child is presumably unhappy about the timeout (or it wouldn't be punishment) and that will certainly have an effect on how the hear and relate to the explanation. They could well focus more on their current feelings, than their previous behavior.

They also typically neglect what I consider to be one of the most helpful discipline tools for young kids- finding acceptable alternatives that honor the impulse. This seems to be something that is by far the most effective if done in the moment. If a child doesn't learn better ways to express their impulses (ex: being angry at mom), it won't just go awat even if they know its unacceptable. They will resort to the best way they know to express it (ex: hitting).

Punishments can also be seen as "payment" for a misbehavior. They hit, they get timeout, and its even. It absolves them of their guilt, which is quite a powerful motivator!

[mamazee]

Toddlers will run into the street if they aren't adequately supervised. If they get into the street, that is a supervision issue and not a behavior issue on the part of a child. Why would you punish a toddler for doing what toddlers do? When toddlers get a little older and learn cause/effect, they stop doing that, but that is a simple developmental stage - it isn't something that can be taught or that won't be learned by kids naturally, just like walking or rolling over.

And tantrums, again, are perfectly normal behavior for toddlers and young children. My pediatrician asked at one well child visit if my daughter ever had tantrums, and I said yes and asked if it was a problem. She said no, but that if young children never have tantrums it could signal a problem - not that it is a problem but that it is one possible indicator, so it's something she asks at whatever age that was. I see no reason why anyone would punish a child for being a child. Children outgrow tantrums on their own so long as they are responded to consistently. I don't see how you can't tolerate tantrums. Can you not tolerate crying, or nightmares, or potty training accidents, or any other completely normal young child behaviors, or is it just tantrums you single out?

[pajamajes]

Thanks for all the responses yall. I think I understand a little bit better now. In response to Mamazee's question about is it just tantrums that I can't stand. No. I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not. My biggest fear with my children is that they will be spoiled, disrespectful, little brats. There are entirely to many of them already. And everyone tells me that the reason there are so many spoiled brats is because people don't spank. I really don't want that to be true. I am very conflicted over this issue. Anyway, I know I talk too much. Thanks for the advice.

[Limabean1975]

Pajamajes, do you have children yet? It sounds like no - if that's the case, it is really wonderful that you are examining these questions ahead of time!

When you have them, and your toddler starts having tantrums, you'll likely realize that tantrums happen. They just do. Like a PP said, it's a totally normal developmental behaviour, like lacking bladder control. There are many things we, as parents, can do to help lesssen tantrums - making sure child is not hungry, tired, etc when we go out shopping, for example; being consistent and loving - but no matter what you do tantrums happen, and that's okay -it's a healthy release of emotions. It's not something to "tolerate" or "not tolerate" - it jsut does not work that way!
WHen my son is having a bad day, or a tantrum over something that doesn't seem that upsetting to me, I remind myself of a few things: 1. He is still, essentially, a baby. He has only been around for 2 years! 2. It is HARD being two. It really really is - so many things to learn, so many conflicting emotions, so much that you want that is denied. It is hard being two.

[tashaharney]

i think those spoiled disrespectful brats are often treated disrespectfully and bought off by parents who for whatever reason have decided that kids are an inconvenience. instead of building a foundation of respect and clear expectation and boundaries reinforced with love and acceptance of where the kid is now, they are unclear inconsistant wrt boundaries and expectations, reinforcing them arbitrarily with violence shame and fear, and with no thought for what is developmentally appropriate. so these kids cover their fear and shame, and express their anger thru sarcasm and inappropriate behaviors.

[IdahoMom]

Well some of the "brattiest" kids I know are from AP homes, so I don't think you can blame any one group.

[famousmockngbrd]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

Thanks for all the responses yall. I think I understand a little bit better now. In response to Mamazee's question about is it just tantrums that I can't stand. No. I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not. My biggest fear with my children is that they will be spoiled, disrespectful, little brats. There are entirely to many of them already. And everyone tells me that the reason there are so many spoiled brats is because people don't spank. I really don't want that to be true. I am very conflicted over this issue. Anyway, I know I talk too much. Thanks for the advice.

I just want to say one thing - you don't ever need to spank. You can be a strong disciplinarian and never spank your children. Hitting is wrong. There are so many other ways to discipline children, even if your goal is pure obedience.

Now, as for the other stuff - it sounds to me like you are coming from a mindset of children needing to submit to the will of their parents. You say you hate it when kids say "no" to their parents. You seem to think that children should just do whatever their parents tell them to do, without question. IMO, this is not compatible with my goals of teaching my children to think for themselves. Yes, there are times when I lay down the mama law. I will not let my toddler throw grandma's crystal vase in the tub, no matter how hard she tantrums. But my overall mindset is not "you will do what I say because I'm the boss". I will protect the safety of people and their property, but I don't demand blind obedience from my kids. They are welcome to question me, as long as they do it respectfully. Yelling and hitting are not allowed. "Can I finish this sand castle? Five minutes more?" is allowed, and if possible, the answer is yes. It's the respect I would give any human, and the respect I ask in return. So, if I say "No, we have to meet Daddy and we're running late," they will be OK with that (usually) because I've accomodated them in the past.

Some people think that if you "give in" to a child's request, you are setting a precedent of weakness, and will have to say yes forever after. Or, the child will nag and whine until you give in. In fact, I think the opposite is true - the more you acknowledge a child's reasonable requests and give them *serious* consideration, the more willing they are to cooperate with you because they feel like you hear them and respect them. The child is not your enemy. Kids need us to guide them and help them, not dominate them.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by IdahoMom

Well some of the "brattiest" kids I know are from AP homes, so I don't think you can blame any one group.

Omg, I so agree!

I knew one family who spouted all this stuff about being a child centered home and respecting their kid......... but if at 5:30 p.m he threw a fit about the dinner menu, you'd find the mom going to the store "johnny doesn't want lamb tonight" Not even my hubby can change the dinner menu at that hour! He'd be fishing for sandwich stuff if he didn't like what I made.

[gabysmom617]

For a long time it's about distraction...at least this is what works for me most of the time.

If kid wants something, I say "No", and leave it at that, a tantrum will happen.

But if kid wants something, and I say "No. Look, here's your race car! Ooooo, look at it! Drive it across the shopping cart bar there...ooo, look at it go!!!" Then, I get the child's mind off of what he wanted, and the car becomes more appealing, we've successfully warded off a tantrum.

Granted, this technique is getting harder and harder as my kid gets older and wiser to my techniques, and I have needed more elaborate and enticing distractions as he gets older. But also, now that he's older and wiser, I can explain to him in simple terms exactly why he can't have what he wants.

He's still sad sometimes. It doesn't dry the tears up all the time to just explain to him. But he's not crying because he's a brat. He's crying because he is sad and frustrated that he can't have what he wants, and that is ok. He is having new emotions that he is just learning how to control.

Sometimes in the store, he wants something, I say no, and there is some whimpering. Me, being the kissaholic that I am, kiss him many times on the cheek. It makes him know that I love him, even though he can't have what he wants, and usually by the time we turn down the next aisle, his mind is something else.

Usually, for my child, the buck wild all out and out kicking and screaming tantrums come from him behing exhausted, in which case, I usually high tail it out of the store. Neither one of us can deal with that.

However, just because I try to help my child work out his frustrations and allow tantrums doesn't mean he "get's what he wants", by no means. When I said he couldn't have it, I meant it, and if he gets mad, he just has to learn to work through that. Lovingly helping/allowing a toddler work out his feelings isn't the same as allowing him to get what he wants...

[runes]

i think a lot of it is understanding what is developmentally appropriate behavior, and letting the child have the 'space' to experience that in a safe and loving manner.

toddlers tantrum. it is what it is. and instead of expending SO MUCH energy on my part to 'prevent' or even 'punish' to change that behavior, i validate my dd's feelings and let it runs it's course. so i'm that mom standing in the middle of the store, watching closely but giving my child the space to experience her tantrum in it's full glory. and even as a slightly over 2 year old, i take time time to talk to her on her level, calmly and quietly, and validate those very big and probably scary feelings that she was experiencing, while kissing away the tears.

and yes, we've had the big middle-of-the-parking-lot meltdowns as well, in which case i do have to carry her as carefully as possible to the car, but i let her do her thing once she's safe.

a lot of parenting is becoming aware of your own emotions and reactions. and i try as best as i can to not be reactionary. easier said than done, but the effort is worth it.

check out www.enjoyparenting.com , and you may like to sign up for his newsletter called the daily groove. it's really changed my attitude and opened my eyes to a whole new way of being, and it's not only positively influenced my parenting as well as all of my relationships with others.

and...WELCOME!!!

[DevaMajka]

As far as raising spoiled kids, I read once that you don't spoil a child by saying "yes" but you CAN spoil a child by saying "yes" grudgingly. If you give in to avoid a tantrum, or because you don't want your child to dislike you for the moment, or because you feel guilty for being gone all day, that doesn't send them a good message. So happily say yes whenever possible, and if it has to be no, stick with it. (obviously there's more to it, but...)

My ds had a tantrum in a store because I wouldn't get him a toy. It sucked. I am aware of what happened to help lead up to it. He was tired. It was the 2nd or 3rd place we'd gone that day. My grandma was with us, and she generally does whatever will make him happy. I had said no to many many things already. But it still sucked. And to be honest, I'm a lot more wary of taking him shopping since then (and I've told him that). I ended up carrying him out screaming, with him yelling "get your hands off me!" (I was glad that he called me mommy. I could feel people watching). We talked to him about it afterwards.
But it hasn't happened since. When I take him, I'm much more prepared. I make sure he's eaten, or take a snack. I don't do to many things in one outing. I tell him in advance that we're not getting a toy, or we'll get a healthy snack but not candy, etc.

I really cannot understand how any punishment would be more effective than what I did, and continue to do.

And kids saying no... I think it depends on what you're talking about. If I ask ds to get something for me, he has every right to tell me he doesn't want to. It's not his job to get the remote control for me. He almost always does, but I wouldn't mind in the least if he said no.
Ds's only "chore" (it's only his chore because he likes doing it) is to bring any stray dishes from the living room to the sink when I do dishes. Today, he told me he was too busy. Fine. My SIL was here, and she brought them in. He was playing, and IMO play is very important work to kids. I make ds wait for me sometimes when I'm busy, and I give him the same respect. He would have done it later if I'd felt like waiting for him.

Now, he knows the difference between "hey ds, would you do me a favor?" or "Would you mind X?" and "Do it now and I mean it." If I tell him to stop banging a toy on the floor, I would certainly NOT be happy if he responded "no" but that would be a rare occurance. Actually, if he did say no to something like that, I would be so surprised, that I'd HAVE to think that something was up, and I'd focus on what was going on behind the scenes.

[mamazee]

I also wanted to mention that the latest issue of Mothering has a fantastic article about tantrums.