Please Help Me Understand - Page 2

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by philomom

Omg, I so agree!

I knew one family who spouted all this stuff about being a child centered home and respecting their kid......... but if at 5:30 p.m he threw a fit about the dinner menu, you'd find the mom going to the store "johnny doesn't want lamb tonight" Not even my hubby can change the dinner menu at that hour! He'd be fishing for sandwich stuff if he didn't like what I made.

Do they ALWAYS do this or did you just witness this once? I could see doing this under extreme circumstances. I had promised something else then forgotten or child had been sick etc. Was it the result of a tantrum or because child was completely and understandably disappointed? Like he didn't like salmon, had never likes salmon etc.

If this is a common behaviour this does a child no favours. Yes, in moment, he's quiet. In the long run he's learned his needs matter more than his mother's needs. Well..maybe not if it only happened occasionally but if it's common practice I don't think it's a good idea.

So I don't find this all that respectful to the child because a part of the respect comes from making sure the child learns to respect others. ...I always try to ask what the lesson it will teach is before making a decision.

I respect my children enough to consider they are able to take a bit of compromise so while this might happen occasionally in our house(I could see it happening if a child had been sick or something) but as a matter of course, this is just shifting the balance in the home against the parent.

The most difficult children I know come from a very authoritative/spanking home. But most of the parents around her are definitely more on the GD end of things. I see a lot of well behaved, rambunction, happy, age appropriate behaviour

I see lots of "no" and "mine" and all of it is completely age appropriate. I also see moms cringe when their kids say it but I always go " completely age appropriate" with a smile and they relax a bit. A child will often do something before he's learned not to. Raising a child would be so easy if they came out knowing all of that but they have to be taught. They are the centre of the universe in their minds until they are old enough to understand they are not.

This doesn't mean you give in to that every single time. You just keep it in mind every single time.

When I see a developmentally able older child exhibiting toddler like behaviour I cringe. I know a child like this. It is the direct result of a mother giving into her every little demand for "things"

GD isn't about saying yes to every thing..it's about saying no gently.

[mamazee]

Every so often, I'll be just about to start dinner, and someone will say, "I'm just not hungry for that." I don't know if it's ever been my daughter - I think it's generally me or my husband - but it's possible it's been here once or twice. Anyway, if we all agree, we just go out to eat. So I guess on a rare day someone could see me and think that about me. Really, we're just very flexible. If the things I bought for dinner that night will still be OK the next night, and we want something else, we do something else. I've never thought of that as a problem. And if it's OK for me or my husband to feel that way, it's OK for her to do that too. Though in our house, it's a vote kind of thing. If two people aren't hungry for what we were supposed to have, we do something else, so she wouldn't be able to decide alone anyway.

Flexibility is good.

[mamaduck]

Originally Posted by allgirls

I think you want that tantrum and all other tantrums to stop.

If that's what you want to happen..there is nothing that I can think of off the top of my head that "works"................


..........You say "what if it doesn't work?"

What if yelling doesn't work? What if punishement doesn't work? There are no guarantees anything will actually work.

Yep. Of this entired thread, this line of reasoning resonates with me the most. Pajamajes -- you mentioned using time-out in your OP, and I had to laugh a little, trying to imagine implimenting a "time out" mid-tantrum in a crowded store -- that would not "work" with my kids.

You can't choose methods based soley on what "works" anyway, because the ends do not justify the means.

I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not.

Well, I think you'll probably find that if these are your "hot spots," your own kids will find a way to press these exact buttons! A huge peice of parenting effectively involves examining your own triggers and idiosyncracies, and learning to move beyond whatever it is that "makes you cringe." Its important to spend some time reflecting on WHY these particular issues are so critical to you.

For me, parenting has taught me a lot about letting go of the need to control every situation, and learning to think a little differently about what it means to be in authority.

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not.

Just want to address this little bit here.

Children want things. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting things. As an adult I have learned along the way that I can't have everything I want, not because someone is constantly telling me that but because I have learned along the way and have developed that self control.

If you teach a child that "no means no" they may stop asking for things. They may stop pitching a fit to get those things. That may happen. The thing is that he still wants things. He may just find different ways to get them or he may just become resentful in other ways.

sorry..be back...baby calls

ok...I'm back...

So Gd doesn't mean you will give them every single thing they want. It's about helping them through their anger/frustration/disappointment(which manifests itself in a tantrum) when they don't get what they want. It's realising it's completely age appropriate and not punishing them for something they really can't help.

[runes]

op, when i reread your first post a few things really jump out at me.

i think it would help if you took a little bit of time to figure out WHY it is that some of the behaviors that you mention irk you, or are pet peeves of yours.

where in your life have you experienced wanting something and not getting it. how did it feel? how does it make your body feel to think about this? where/when in your life (if ever) have you "pitched a fit"? what were you told about this kind of behavior in your family of origin? how were you treated when you acted "inappropriately"?

if you grew up in a household that was authoritarian/punitive, it is quite challenging to let go of some of your core beliefs about discipline and behavior. both my husband and i grew up in households like this, and mine crossed the line into abusive. it took a lot of work, introspection, and discussion for us to reparent ourselves and arrive at truly understanding and internalizing gentle discipline principles. the book and dvd called unconditional parenting by alfie kohn were both pivotal for dh and i. at times it was (and still is...) painful to look at our childhoods under such a lens, but it was something that we both needed to do in order to shed thosed preconceived ideas about children. i am so glad that we both took the time and shed the tears to do this, but we really do believe that unconditional parenting/gentle discipline will help us to forge and maintain the kind of relationship that we would like to have with our child(ren).

[Queen of my Castle]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

Telling a child to stop a behavior isn't always effective. And doesn't repeating your request 15 times or every day just teach the child that they really don't have to listen to you.From what I have read when lurking on this forum, the proper response to this would be to get on her level and say something to the effect of "I understand that you are mad that you can't have that whatever it is, but you can't scream and cry and roll around on the floor." What if that doesn't work, which I seriously doubt it will.

I haven't read all the responses yet but I just wanted to say I'm looking forward to reading them, because I, too, find myself in situations where I'm trying to do something (like leave the house when we're already late) and something needs to happen (like dress my toddler) and it's just not working and I'm left wondering what to do. It's not discipline, it's not appropriate to punish, and I can't just let it happen. Or when I feel a punishment is needed but I don't know how I feel about it exactly- because from my reading I definately favour gentle discipline.
Anyway...back to read!

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

Thanks for all the responses yall. I think I understand a little bit better now. In response to Mamazee's question about is it just tantrums that I can't stand. No. I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not. My biggest fear with my children is that they will be spoiled, disrespectful, little brats. There are entirely to many of them already. And everyone tells me that the reason there are so many spoiled brats is because people don't spank. I really don't want that to be true. I am very conflicted over this issue. Anyway, I know I talk too much. Thanks for the advice.

I am laughing here. Of course children say no! Of course they have tantrums about seemingly ridiculous little things! People who say that's because their parents don't spank are, um, deluded. In normal homes and families, both those with and those without hitting and other punishment, toddlers and preschoolers typically have tantrums and meltdowns, refuse to do behaviors that their parents want, and generally act like small, independent people with their own needs, desires and motivations.

I suppose you could abuse a child until he is so terrified that he doesn't have tantrums or want things or assert his will. I don't think that's a good idea.

I have a really exceptionally well-behaved child. He's kind. He's sympathetic. He's not noisy, he doesn't shove other kids, he's generally pretty happy. He laughs at jokes. I know that I completely, completely lucked out with him. Even this amazing kid that is making everyone in my real life think I am super mom (I wish!) has the occasional meltdown, dislikes transitions, and generally wants what he wants.

The thing is, he's on my team. We're on the same side. He's not a brat, he's a person. He has tastes, likes and dislikes, passions, hobbies--and that's been true from the very beginning.

You know how when you have a family, or a group of friends, or a community, you just know how to navigate everyone's little personality quirks? You know how you say, "Oh, tell Fred we're starting at 5:30 or he won't get here by 6," or "Janet will like Susan, they both like to talk politics." Well, gentle discipline is sometimes a little like that. You know that your kid is a certain age and has certain characteristics because of it (needs a nap, has to have a snack, can't go on three errands in a row) and also you know your child as an individual person (afraid of dogs, loves music, will play with legos for hours.) You take stuff into account and things go smoother, and also, you can be more forgiving when they don't go smoothly, because you know the score.

[nancy926]

So...you want an independent kid, but you want them to do what you say all the time, no questions?

I don't think you can have both.

Kids are going to say "no." It's not personal. It doesn't mean you are a bad mom, or a weak human being, or any of that. It doesn't mean they don't love you or even respect you. It means they are their own selves and have their own thoughts and desires and wants and needs.

Defiance bothers me, too. But I realize it is MY issue. It has to do with how I was raised and my own personality. I try very hard not to take that out on my kids.

Instead, I use humor as much as I can, and creativity (if my daughter will not put her shoes on, then we put her shoes in the car with her, and try again when we get wherever we are going), and patience. to me, these things are not spoiling my kids; they are expressing compassion, something my household sorely lacked when I was a kid.

And honestly, some things are just phases. Throwing food on the floor. Not wanting to eat your own food (Mom's is better). Taking all the CDs out of the cabinet. Whether you let these things go or blow them up into huge battles, they will subside eventually.

[ruhbehka]

Lots of good responses so far.

I just wanted to add that it really helps to view your children's actions in the best light possible. That doesn't mean you delude yourself into thinking they are angels, but that you assign positive intent if it is feasible.

For example, one of our closest little friends (20 mos old) has a tendency to whack my DS (18 mos) over the head when he wants to play with him. It's not malicious; he typically stares at him afterward, smiling, then looks puzzled and starts to cry when my son gets upset.

Rather than view him as "aggressive" or think that he's trying to hurt my son, I try to make sense of the situation in a reasonable way. To me, it seems like he is trying to initiate a game of some sort, and doesn't know a socially acceptable way to do that. So I often say to him, "You wanted to play with Malachy. Throw this ball to him!"

If he were my son, and he then hit a second time, or had hit out of anger or frustration the first time, I'd hold him securely in my lap, restraining his arms if he was trying to him me, and say firmly, "No hitting. You may not hit. Hitting hurts. No hitting." After I could tell the message sunk in, I might ask him to "Show mama what gentle hands look like," and wait until he did (or model it with his hands). Then let him back up to play, giving him some guidance like, "Look at this little car. Vroom, vroom!"

For me, the key to practicing GD without falling into permissiveness or authoritarianism is to remember, in the heat of the moment, that I am much, much bigger than my child, and that I do have the power to make him do (or not do) what I need, if it comes down to that. Then I have the patience to realize that he is frustrated by his own smallness, and that I need to consider whether what I feel is important is truly important, and how I can meet both of our needs as best as the situation allows. And how to allow DS to maintain his dignity as much as possible, if I have to override his will, etc.

I don't plead with my son, or ask him to stop doing something 15 times. I pause and reflect, when possible, and recall that I don't have to beg him or nag him. I'm the adult and I have the power to make the situation what I want it to be. He does not, at least not to the same extent. So it's generally simple to find a solution that gives us both ample respect and dignity.

[robinCBN]

I learned many things from my sister about parenting. She would let her children make inconvienent choices at times, just because it was what the child wanted to do (and it wasn't unsafe or bad behavior or any of those things). She pointed out that children get to make almost no decisions about what happens in their day. I find my self doing the same thing with my daughter. If she wants three forks of different sizes at dinner, she can have them. If I wanted that many forks, I would just get them my self, but she can't go over to the drawer and get them, she is too small. I think we take for granted all the mundane personal choice decisions that we, as big people, get to make all the time and that the little people don't get to make. As a result ( I think) of letting her make all these little choices if she wants, is that when I do make a request of her, she does it. For instance in the store I always let her carry around a toy of her choosing (I don't allow her to maul it or chew on it or anything) and when its time to go, she gives it up with no fuss, and off we go. This of course may not last, she is just 20 months now, but for now, things are good that way.

People are always commenting on how well behaved she is. We treat her as a whole person (a whole child person), not as a partial person, which seems to be how kid smackers view their kids. If anyone hit me because I didn't do what they said, I'd be beyond livid, even if it was a reasonable request on their part and I was in the wrong. In a civilized society we don't hit people. Think of an older person, perhaps getting a bit senile, fussing in a store. I've seen it. Would you smack your grandmother because she wanted a cookie and can't remember that she has diabetes and can't have one??? I think not.

Sorry for rambling, but I know there are a lot of different views on this board, and I am searching for ways to promote a better society for all.

Perhaps then, the goal is that all of us, someday, live without the memory of violence.

[mkmb129]

Originally Posted by pajamajes

Thanks for all the responses yall. I think I understand a little bit better now. In response to Mamazee's question about is it just tantrums that I can't stand. No. I also can't stand kids telling their parents no when they ask them to do something. It honestly just makes me cring. And the tantrums aren't really so much the tanrums because the child is tired or doesn't want to be in the store or whatever. It's the tantrums that are caused by not being able to have every little thing they want. You don't get everything you want. You get what you need, and occasionaly a want as a treat. It just seems like to me that when mama says no that means no, whether you pitch a fit or not. My biggest fear with my children is that they will be spoiled, disrespectful, little brats. There are entirely to many of them already. And everyone tells me that the reason there are so many spoiled brats is because people don't spank. I really don't want that to be true. I am very conflicted over this issue. Anyway, I know I talk too much. Thanks for the advice.

My ped told me trantrums are normal, and usually are a result of frustration. He said that is just how children express their feelings when they don't know what else to do. Where I do not like tantrums, I try to remember I get frustrated, too. Sometimes I get angry, and will say something or grunt, or throw something.. and I understand the world around me. My 1 year old does not, and he cannot communicate very well to boot. It seems silly to say to my one year old, "I understand that you are upset, and that is okay. But you are not going to continue climbing on the arms of the sofa, you can fall and get hurt." Does he understand? Probably not, but one day he will. I hated being spoken down to as a child, I remember being treated like a stupid, insignificant little kid, which is all the more reason to treat my child with respect. I'm embarrassed to say that I did tap his hand once, out of frustration which makes it worse, and do you know what he did to me? He hit me right back! And he had every right. Hitting is counter-productive, especially when it's a negative behaviour you're wanting to correct, and only serves to confuse the child. I don't want my child to be afraid of me, like I was afraid of my mom.

[nancy926]

RobinCBN - I also let my kids play with toys and carry them around in the store. Then we put them back. It's always been this way - well, 95% of the time. Sometimes we do go to the store and come home with a toy. But most of the time we don't, and they are fine with that.

Your post is great, btw. You make a great point -- adults have "odd" requests and desires too (like 3 forks with dinner) - we just take care of them ourselves, because we can.

[berkeleyp]

I think this has been and continues to be a really great, respectful conversation about GD. My dd is almost 3 and sometimes I just feel like I'm so unprepared for parenting and disciplining seems to be so important, so easy to f-up, and just hard in general. I was lucky not to be raised with any violence but my mom (who lives with me) can be pretty authoritarian. She believes time-outs with a timer are the best way to make sure kids have limits so that they don't feel out of control or act too out of control. She puts my dd in timeout for what I feel are small infractions.

Reading through this thread makes me feel a lot better about a lot of the things that I do. Above all, I try to be respectful of dd's point of view and try to accomodate her when possible. At the same time, she NEVER gets what she wants if she is screaming or otherwise being inappropriate. I try to avoid time out because it seems too much like punishment but I do what seem like logical consequences with explanations. I don't know if it's punishment or not but I'll ask dd first and then more firmly demand that she leave the kitchen if she wants to scream for example. I tell her that her screaming is giving me a headache and that if she wants to be with me, she needs to be quiet but that if she wants to scream, she is welcome to go to another room. usually she gets quiet or leaves the room but sometimes I end up putting her in timeout as my last resort. I would like to stop doing this but I am at a loss. I am unwilling to allow the behavior to continue and if my "gentle" ideas are not working, I resort to time-out which is usually very effective. She sits on a chair with a timer and I stand near her until she can get up. This doesn't happen very often.

Generally she is pretty well behaved. I'd like to think its because of my parenting but I also recognize that kids are different. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I just read Barbara Coloroso's "Kids are worth it" and while it didn't answer all of my practical concerns and also had a lot of stuff about older kids, I really like her three models: brickwall, jellyfish, and backbone. I think most people exist on a spectrum of these three and may move around more or less between them. Sometimes AP folks I've met IRL and here seem like jellyfish - mostly permissive under the guise of respecting their kids which IME doesn't work because kids feel like there are no limits which can be scary. I think having backbone as Coloroso suggests is a fine line between setting and enforcing standards and rules and being inconsistent or permissive.

[aiea]

just subbing... I have been reading these posts again and again... letting it sink in... Thanks, mamas!

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by kidspiration

i think a lot of it is understanding what is developmentally appropriate behavior, and letting the child have the 'space' to experience that in a safe and loving manner.

toddlers tantrum. it is what it is.

and yes, we've had the big middle-of-the-parking-lot meltdowns as well, in which case i do have to carry her as carefully as possible to the car, but i let her do her thing once she's safe.

a lot of parenting is becoming aware of your own emotions and reactions. and i try as best as i can to not be reactionary. easier said than done, but the effort is worth it.

I so agree with this!

[maygee]

Originally Posted by robinCBN

I learned many things from my sister about parenting. She would let her children make inconvienent choices at times, just because it was what the child wanted to do (and it wasn't unsafe or bad behavior or any of those things). She pointed out that children get to make almost no decisions about what happens in their day. I find my self doing the same thing with my daughter. If she wants three forks of different sizes at dinner, she can have them. If I wanted that many forks, I would just get them my self, but she can't go over to the drawer and get them, she is too small. I think we take for granted all the mundane personal choice decisions that we, as big people, get to make all the time and that the little people don't get to make. As a result ( I think) of letting her make all these little choices if she wants, is that when I do make a request of her, she does it. For instance in the store I always let her carry around a toy of her choosing (I don't allow her to maul it or chew on it or anything) and when its time to go, she gives it up with no fuss, and off we go. This of course may not last, she is just 20 months now, but for now, things are good that way.

People are always commenting on how well behaved she is. We treat her as a whole person (a whole child person), not as a partial person, which seems to be how kid smackers view their kids. If anyone hit me because I didn't do what they said, I'd be beyond livid, even if it was a reasonable request on their part and I was in the wrong. In a civilized society we don't hit people. Think of an older person, perhaps getting a bit senile, fussing in a store. I've seen it. Would you smack your grandmother because she wanted a cookie and can't remember that she has diabetes and can't have one??? I think not.

Sorry for rambling, but I know there are a lot of different views on this board, and I am searching for ways to promote a better society for all.

Perhaps then, the goal is that all of us, someday, live without the memory of violence.

great post, really inspiring!

[pajamajes]

Reading these has been so enlightening! I have learned so much more since I first posted this! Thanks Mamas!