5-year-olds hitting me . . .

[lexbeach]

My twins--and one of them in particular--are having a resurgence of the "hitting as automatic response to disappointment" behavior. They hit each other and they hit me and dw (though I seem to get the worst of it). So far, my response has been to say something like, "I understand that you are mad/sad/disappointed/frustrated/whatever, and that's totally okay to feel that way. But it's NOT okay to hit me." And then I just sort of leave it at that. This doesn't seem to deter the hitting behavior in any way, but I'm hoping that they're somehow getting the message? Honestly, the hitting doesn't bother me that much (it doesn't usually hurt), and my main goal is usually to switch whoever is hitting me into a different mode (usually via playful parenting of some sort).

But the other day the kids' bestfriend and his parents were over for dinner, and they witnessed a hitting episode (with me getting hit), and they were pretty aghast at my "lack of response." They practice GD too, so it's not as though they expected me to put my son in a time-out or anything like that. Since then I've been wondering if maybe this is a more appalling behavior than I thought, and maybe there should be some sort of a consequence for hitting.

Any advice?

Thanks!

Lex

[leafylady]

I used to think it was appalling too. I guess it still bugs the heck out of me.

However, one of my nieces used to do this to her mom. Her mom ignored it- which appalled me . Now this niece is 16 and she is Just Fine. She is a wonderful teenage girl, oustanding student, very involved in the community and absolutely wonderful with my kids. She is loving, compassionate, and patient.

So In light of how my SIL and BIL's kids have turned out, I've re-examined my view. At a gut level it's still "appalling", but it still might be the right thing to do. You sound pretty in-touch with your kids, so if you feel good about it, then it's probably ok.

[nextcommercial]

I would think it was appauling too. I know what you are trying to do, and ignoring it may very well work and they will stop, just because they aren't getting the response they want.

But, there is that part of me that thinks "She deserves to be treated better". You would never tolerate being hit by anybody else who loves you would you? How would you handle it if your wife, or sister hit you when they weren't happy with you? Would you just ignore it?

Don't you deserve that kind of respect from your sons? Don't your sons deserve a Mom who is worthy of respect?

I think saying "but, you may NOT hit me" is great. But, how is your voice when you say it? Is it confident?

Besides the fact that it bothers me that two boys would hit their own mother, the thought of them as teenagers scares me. What if you say "No, I'm sorry, you can't take the car tonight". Do you think they will respect that? Or do you envision them just leaving with the keys anyway? (only you know them, so I am really asking)

[lesliesara63]

We just ended a huge episode over hitting and I'm at my wits end. My dd will be five in a few days. She just hit me, threatened to bite me, tried to bite and called me a stupid, dumb, bad mom I was raised in a spanking house and I don't want to be like that, but in that moment I really, really wanted to spank her. Instead I removed everything except clothing & books from her bedroom. Nothing makes an impact on her. When dh got home - he came home early and still had work to do. He made her put winter clothes on, she wears dresses around the house and took her to work and he's making her polish silverware. Neither one of us know what to do anymore. I had been handling it exactly as you had been. I feel like I'm in totally over my head.

[swampangel]

Big huge hugs to you. I have no specific words of wisdom or advice on this issue...I was really hoping to see more posts about this one.

One thing I did want to share is that I have two friends who have been and are going through it now. What I've noticed is how uncomfortable and yucky it must feel for the kids to act out on their impulses like this. I think it feels very unpleasant to have those out of control feelings and for me, it's helped to shift the focus onto that in order to think about ways to move through it.

Do your kiddos like to role play? It's worked well with my ds with certain issues when we've role played it for awhile. I wonder if, out of the heat of the moment, you talk about this issue and how it is unacceptable to hit but you understand how it feels to have those big feelings. Then maybe you could practice different alternative actions to handle those feelings. Maybe you pretend to be your dc and walk away for some time alone, hit a pillow, scream into a pillow, stomp up and down, etc. and then switch roles. It might get a giggle out of your kiddo and also will give you something to go back to in the middle of an outburst.

I hope others have some suggestions...this is a tough issue, but one I think that needs to be addressed. You don't deserve to be hit and your dc doesn't need to feel so out of control.

[bluebell]

my dd is 4 1/2yrs and she is hitting me aswell. i'm really not sure what to do either! i've been trying to validate her feelings but she gets even angrier! i've also tried to encourage her to hit a cushion or pillow when she wants to hit and she can even pretend its me, but she pushes the pillow aside and still hits me, she won't even try to hit the pillow. i'll admit i have lost it when she just continued and wouldn't stop despite all my best efforts. i just felt so resentful that she was doing it to me and wouldn't stop and i don't think i'm a bad mother to her! when i lost it i just went up stairs to the bedroom and closed the door and wouldn't let her in - she then became hysterical crying and screaming for me so i had to then comfort her and calm her down. so i don't think i handled that too well. but i just felt so pushed to the absolute limits with it. i hope you get some more suggestions i need them too!

[Daddyodaddyo]

oof - me too!

My first post on MDC - my wife's been glued to this place for a long time -

I'm here looking for counsel for our 4 1/2 y.o. who has also caught the hitting bug in a huge way. DS1 will literally climb on top of DS2 - who is 2 - sit on him and slap him silly, all the while DS2 is screaming "No hittin! No hittin!" - it begins the instant I step out of the room.

Like the posters above, I feel like I've tried everything. We're pacifists, so he's not getting this violent behavior modeled anywhere (and you can imagine our shock). Usually, I rush in, pull him off his brother and sit him down in a different part of the room. "We do NOT hit," I'll repeat, emphasizing that hitting hurts. I'll ask him how he thinks the hitting made his brother feel (to which he will usually reply "bad"... though today, he ventured "happy" (his brother corrected him, shouting "grumpy!")). Sometimes he'll begin hitting my arm as I talk to him. I've tried giving him a stuffed animal to hit, I've tried removing him from the room, I've tried prompting apologies or other talk about feelings, we bought a book called "Hands Are Not For Hitting" - and we recite all the wonderful things one can do with their hands, I've tried talking it over with him a million different ways, and at this point, all I can say is that I just want it to stop. I want it to stop so badly that I'm considering using timeouts - and I detest timeouts.

It's getting to the point where I'm wondering whether the psychological damage of timeouts applied strategically to contain the hitting would be less than the damage being done to DS2, who is getting slapped silly, and his parents, who are not enjoying this season of toddlerlife.

I'm beginning to feel like Ned Flander's beatnik parents, who plead for help to a family counselor - "Like, we've tried nothing man, and we're all out of ideas!"

So please, new friends, talk me out of timeouts...

[PreggieUBA2C]

Hmmm, is this a stage? Ds1 has been doing some pretty sneaky and dangerous things to his brother, mostly involving pinning him down and slapping him silly too!

I don't have any answers. Today, after asking ds1 what he needs repeatedly and offering myraid suggestions over the past short while that this has become routine, he suddenly exclaimed that he needs some time in his room to be alone with his lego. This was not directly after a hitting/pinning episode, but he initiated the conversation based on our repeated inquiries. We brought his brothers downstairs to the playroom, and he stayed upstairs by himself building. This is the first time that he has vocalised this need and then felt completely at ease following through on it. Often we suggest some alone time for him, because it seems obvious to us that he needs it, but he declines if the door has to be shut. The difficulty and reason we've had to shut the door before was that he wanted to do things that the younger two aren't ready for, but would certainly dive into given the chance.

Last week we made a downstairs playroom, so now he can have some space and leave the bedroom door open, so his brothers can't come running in, he can play the way he wants to with whatever he chooses, and simply come downstairs to join us if he's done, or just wants to pop in and show us something.

After his alone time today, he was much gentler with his brothers and even initiated several games with them- being very gentle with them then too. He even invited ds3 to 'wrestle' with him, but then took him for a ride on his back and giggled with him while gently rolling around on the floor making sure ds3 was cradled and not bumping his head or being dropped to the floor. It was quite amazing to watch, actually .

He also stays up later than the others three nights/wk, and we started that 2 weeks ago, hoping it would alleviate some frustration for him, which might help with these strange aggressive attacks he's started.

I don't know; I think for our son, even if this isn't a result of frustration or a need not being met, it seems to be exacerbated by that, so we try to figure out what he needs and sometimes, we do. Today he figured it out!

I hope this is a new step in our communication, but we'll have to see. He's always taken alone time by just secreting away when his brothers didn't notice, but lately, they've been noticing more and he hasn't had that time he used to have more frequently because they come tumbling in wherever he is. They love him .

I'll be watching this thread for ideas!

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by lexbeach

So far, my response has been to say something like, "I understand that you are mad/sad/disappointed/frustrated/whatever, and that's totally okay to feel that way. But it's NOT okay to hit me."

You may already do this, but have you tried telling them what they can do instead, when they are mad/sad/disappointed?
Perhaps they would give you input as to what direction they need. If not, you could just shoot out ideas "jump up and down" "say 'I'm ANGRY'" etc.

(my ds is younger than yours. I do babysit a boy who is 4.5 and in a hitting when frustrated stage, and he seems receptive to trying acceptable alternatives...when he remembers)

Originally Posted by Daddyodaddyo

"We do NOT hit," I'll repeat, emphasizing that hitting hurts.

I'm sure this is just picky, but "we do not hit" isn't true. HE just did, kwim?

As far as timeouts, they may squash the hitting (key word "may") but they wouldn't be solving the problem. Those feelings will still be there, and he will (hopefully) try to express them in the best way he knows how. (I guess timeouts could prompt the thinking "I won't hit because I don't want a timeout" but those feelings will still be there). Right now, the best way he knows how, is by hitting.
Telling him acceptable things to do with his hands doesn't really help him with a socially acceptable way to express his anger. yk?

I should add that I definitely understand the desire to just make it stop. Hitting is NOT ok with me.

[lexbeach]

Originally Posted by Daddyodaddyo

I'm beginning to feel like Ned Flander's beatnik parents, who plead for help to a family counselor - "Like, we've tried nothing man, and we're all out of ideas!"

Lol! I think we sort of feel the same way.

I have started being very serious about each hitting incident (I used to just ignore it sometimes, I've realized). Like this morning, I got out the boys' cereal bowls and poured the cereal in (dw usually does breakfast). Lukas came into the room with a bowl and said, "I got my bowl." I said, "oh, I already got you a bowl." And he said, "it's MY job to get the bowls and spoons!" I said, "Well you can still get the spoons." Then, as he walked by me to get the spoons, he punched me in the leg (and it actually hurt a bit). I think this is the kind of thing that a week ago I was just ignoring, but today I stopped everything and got down on his level and did the serious "no hitting" talk. He closed his eyes while I was talking to him, but I do think that the repetitive "no hitting" talk is starting to sink in.

I feel badly about how I've just been letting them get away with stuff like this in the chaos of everything. I definitely feel like we (dw and I) are to blame for the hitting behavior. I've also noticed that the kids are more likely to get out of control on days when we are short on patience or when we are paying less attention to them.

Sigh.

Lex

[kbchavez]

There is some good stuff in Naomi Aldort's Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves. It's possible, daddyodaddyo, that your son is feeling like he's BAD for having violent urges... he's probably picking up how appalled you are at his behavior. Even though you're pacifists, it's important to normalize his violent feelings (not the behavior) so he understands that strong, violent feelings are a natural part of being human. If he feels like its OK to feel these impulses, then they will lose their power and he will have less need to act on them. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well... it's much better stated in the book!

[ariahsmum]

I'm probably WAY out of my league here, never post over here... but I read everything with much curiosity because we had a similar experience with dd (now 6).

We do not do time outs or punishments/rewards. Never have.

The ONE thing I drew a boundary with from the beginning (meaning when she was able to comprehend some of her actions) was hitting or kicking. I would say around 3 or so whenever she hit or kicked DH and I would tell her regardless of the circumstance, "We do not hit. I cannot be hit by you." and we would immediately remove her from where she was to her room. Before that, when she hit she would get too upset and aggressive to talk thru anything or any alternatives like punching a pillow, yelling, what-have-you.

So, we would take her up to her room (calmly, without anger/resentment) and if she was still hitting us an disrespecting of our boundary with this, then we would tell her, "I need to shut the door until I am sure that you have calmed down enough that you will not hit me anymore. I will be right here, I am not leaving you. But I have to have the door shut so that I will be safe. Let me know when you are calmed down." We would never leave and would remind her of our presence when she needed it. When it seemed like she was chill enough (and boy did that make her mad sometimes) we would enter the room again. If she met us with another kick or hit, we would have to leave again. She inevitably would be done with her need to hit us and we would hug and then resume activities and when it was appropriate, we would talk about rage feelings and alternatives to hitting people. Sometimes this wasn't even on the same day as the "incident" though.

I can read the above and know that it sounds like we were playing some game, some time out type behavior. Truly, though, that was not the intention. I came from a family that spanked and hit. It took me a long time to draw boundaries for myself, and hitting is JUST ONE OF THEM. I will not be hit, even by the girl I love more than life itself. I need to stay safe from her and teach her for her own being that being hit is unacceptable regardless of the circumstances. We went thru this for about a year or so (only isolated events... say 12) and it has never become an issue again.

Now we have sasssy talk and sticking the tongue out. Once recently she spit at me, (I actually stood there and thought for a moment, and decided to spit back at her. It worked. We never discussed it, but she felt what it was like and that was that).... She's only 6, lord help me!!!!!

I hope you all find something that you are comfortable with, that is in line with your instincts and values and that works to keep you respected and intact.

[WuWei]

Ok, I want to second Naomi Aldort's book due to her emphasis on *validation*. What I don't hear in the examples of the parent responses is recognition and emotion coaching about the BIG feelings. I hear 'you can act differently', rather than hearing the child's underlying emotions. For instance, with a child who is hitting when the parent walks out of the room, the underlying message seems to be something like 'I am angry with the sibling, but I am not allowed to express that when you are watching'. Or perhaps, 'I want your attention and I want it NOW, someway, somehow.' I certainly don't know what is happening in someone's home. But, if the parent can help the child identify the underlying emotions and give voice to them in constructive, proactive ways which make requests of others AND that those requests be honored, the hitting becomes an obsolete tool, ime. For instance, 'I don't want little sibling bothering my stuff and she does and I am tired of it' is something that can be solved together. Or 'I want someone to play with me and I am sad that you are leaving the room, but I know that you'll come back if I am bugging my sibling' can be addressed with a myriad of solutions.

For the breakfast bowls, perhaps, again validating 'Thanks for offering to help with setting the table'; 'did you want to get your bowl yourself? Ok, I'll put this one back.'; 'Did you want a different bowl? Do you prefer to get your own bowl?, etc. Basically restating what the child is trying to express, rather than jumping to 'too bad, it is done, maybe next time, get the spoons instead'. Which are completely reasonable alternative suggestions, AFTER the child's emotional expression is validated. I see this with my dh all the time. It is much harder for me to remember with him, than with ds. I want to *explain* and *defend* and *suggest alternative solutions*, when he just wants to feel *heard*. I'm the same way when I vent, I don't want him to tell me how to *fix* it. I want to just be heard!

Naomi discusses validation as an important tool. I believe that it is; but when the conflict continues or doesn't de-escalate, it is important to me to go the next step and work to identify the underlying needs and seek to find a solution which will address that. Maybe, the bowl is just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe the child doesn't want to be going off to wherever, or misses connection with the parent, or is just hungry and grouchy and may need to eat earlier. ???

4,5,6 year olds are big into *independence* and "I want to do it myself. My way!". It has taken a lot of honoring that for us to move to 'ok, we'll do it differently next time' as an alternative. Initially, we focused on restating the desire and just validating it. And listening to the BIG emotions and giving a vocabulary for expressing them in non-physical ways.


Here is an old post of mine about UP ideas for hitting. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ng#post8796936



HTH, Pat

[swampangel]

ITA with Devamommy. Good points.

I think validating the big emotions is hugely important. I think that's the first thing to really focus on. I really agree with everyone about time-outs...we're not a big fan either. But for really extreme stuff like hurting others, we've resorted to it from time to time. I don't think it's great, but I think it's better than letting the child continue doing something that not only hurts others but makes them feel badly about themselves.

One thing I think is key is talking about it when you're not in the heat of the moment. My 5yo is at an age where he can reflect effectively and I think it allows for a more respectful discourse when we're not upset and emotions aren't running so high.

I think these are the times to move away from "the experts" and really tune into your kiddo and try to figure out what's going on. Is it jealousy of a sibling? Feeling powerless? Wanting more attention? If you can get an idea about why your child is acting out in this particular way, the steps to working through it might have little to do with the actual hitting itself.

[Daddyodaddyo]

Thank you all for your responses (sorry if I threadjacked). You've given me some great things to think through. I've certainly devoted a lot of time until this point trying to talk with him and find out why he continues to hit - we talk about it a lot. My frustration now is that the hitting seems to be almost like a nervous habit, since it is so constant. If the dog walks by him, he smacks the dog. If he's sitting on the couch with his brother, he'll smack him as he gets up. They'll be playing perfectly contentedly, and I'll just hear "smack smack!". There doesn't seem to be much emotion behind it - it's just seems more like a bored physical tick, or something... like some people tap their feet, and he just hits. And obviously, that needs to stop.

My gut says that he will "grow out of it" - and I really want him to resolve this for himself, rather than as a response to my timeouts as an external cue - but geez, until then... the hitting!!!

[PreggieUBA2C]

Pat, I agree with your suggestions and we usually function in the way you described. Today, and like other days, ds1 pinned and smothered ds2 and smiled calmly the whole time. There were no obvious raging emotions from him or dh and I (ds2 was pretty upset though), and trying to figure out his underlying need sounds a lot like making a shopping list out loud. He does seem to still be less likely to do this if he's had time alone, so I am inclined to think that's the need, but what about the *hopefully* now infrequent episodes? What sparks those? He doesn't seem angry or jealous.

Is it possible that he is enjoying his ability to overpower his brother? Or the whole experience in a sensory way? All of this seems creepy to me if I think of it objectively and forget the dynamic little boys and the other hundred or so acts of kindness and generosity I see every day, but I am honestly trying to understand and in the meanwhile, suspending judgement. Most of their aggressive behaviours have been a complete surprise to me, and dh, while he does not condone violent outlets to it, assures me that most boys need to express innate aggression- but we both would prefer, and thereby, encourage them to express the physical aspect of that attribute through energetic play of many sorts, hoping that the boy vs boy stuff will dissipate.

Any other thoughts on this? We have friends who are pacifists and their respective son and daughter have shocked them with hitting, shoving, etc..., their younger siblings. I haven't been much of a comfort to them because I haven't yet seen the end of it in our home.

I should add that before I read others' posts, I thought ds1's behaviour was a result of the constant state of flux we've been since he was born- moving several times, and the complete change of environment and pace that has come with each move. He does seem to tolerate the moves fairly well, although I've noticed that there's a 3 week period immediately before and again after a move during which time everyone seems to be a bit out-of-sorts, but then everyone settles. We are planning a move again, so he may just have found an outlet for stress; we should probably focus directly on that issue before we try any more to figure his behaviour out... I guess I have more work to do before re-entering this discussion.

I love my boys .

[leafylady]

Although it's not desirable, it can't be that abnormal - or there wouldn't be all of these tv shows and movies that talk about brothers beating the crap out of each other. I read a blog by a mom of 3 boys, and several times a week, the loving boys are beating the crap out of each other (ages 9 to 16) . They all love each other and will stand by each other, but.... still the agression is there.
So like I said- not desirable and definitely something to work on, but probably quite normal.

[WuWei]

I guess I don't see it as "aggression", more as finding their limits. Not unlike a marathon race, the boys in our playgroup have a love of expanding and exploring their physical ability. The struggles are impactful, but not intended to be hurtful. Again, like a marathon extends one beyond what seems possible, beyond one's capabilities, or just to strive for the challenge. Certainly, smothering one's sibling doesn't sound like a non-impact sport. But I really trust that people, especially young children, mean well and are doing the best that they can in any moment. Sometimes, the desire for a reaction, or to just know that *something* exciting will transpire, a sensory seeking type experience unfolds. Meeting that with judgment doesn't eliminate the desire for the drama.

The more calm I am, the more possible it is for me to creatively redirect and respond with constructive modeling of rationality. When I am pissed that someone is "hurting" someone else, I am not focused on what I want *to happen*; I just am bogged down in what I *don't* want to happen. I truly believe where I place my energy, is what grows. I've often seen "that if you make it an issue, it becomes an issue", is directly related to me amping up or not. Learning self-awareness and self-control myself has been the hardest and most effective means of helping ds to learn the same. But, I too am triggered by apparent "violence". But, when I am able not to project that negative connotation onto a situation, I've found that I am able to diffuse and de-escalate to more constructive alternatives. By focusing on the constructive alternatives, THAT is what is learned, ime.

The repeated moving sounds very unsettling. Having your large family probably provides the stability and security, regardless of location. However, I imagine that is disruptive and requires recentering for all involved. I'd expect some "flailing" about to find one's boundaries and to create a "safe" space to be unsettled. I know the less centered I feel, the less I want folks in my space.


HTH, Pat

[swampangel]

I think when boys are playing in what seems like an aggressive way at those ages (the above poster talked about kids age 9 to 16), it's more of the way that boys relate to each other and engage with one another. That kind of rough-housing is loving between boys. I highly recommend reading Real Boys...it talks a lot about this and also ways to help boys with the "boy code" which is how society pressures boys not to cry, not to show emotions, etc.

That book helped me to understand the different ways that boys relate to one another and show their love for each other.