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LDS/Mormon Support Only Thread - Page 24

post #461 of 628
Thread Starter 
Incidentally - Bryan just spoke with his mother out in California and she said her stake asked everyone to set aside the next three fast Sundays for asking that this pass.

I think that as time goes on, it is going to get tougher and tougher to stand with the Church and do what we are asked to do. It's going to get more Abraham/Isaac-y.
post #462 of 628
I've posted a variation on this topic elsewhere, but I wonder what exactly is meant by "support." When someone wants support, what do they mean? What is it they are after? As far as I can tell, it varies by person. Some want comments like "Man, that's hard. Sorry about that. " and nothing more than that, while others might actually want advice. And I never seem to know which is which, so I generally stay out of those discussions.

It might be a good thing to define, since we call this a support thread.
post #463 of 628
Thread Starter 
We can discuss anything we want. The criteria for starting this thread was that some of us didn't want to be put in a position where we have to defend the Church or Church leaders (I clarify by defining Church leaders as the Prophet and the apostles, because we all know that local leaders like to make crap up sometimes).

If we are struggling with something, then we can share that, but I want to head off any statements that indicate that the Church is wrong or the Church leaders are wrong. I also want to head off anyone implying that Church members who follow a recommendation coming from the First Presidency are somehow sheeple, or that it is wrong for the wards to be reading letters sent from the Prophet and dedicating time to an issue that President Monson obviously feels very strongly about.

I don't know how to make this make more sense. But when my husband rolls his eyes and decides he's not even going to bother posting, that is how I know when a discussion has lost its way. It used to happen a lot when there was only one thread. Everyone here knows he has a gift for helping people understand something about the Gospel of Church programs, but he stays out as soon as the Spirit has "left the building."

What are everyone else's thoughts?
post #464 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by alisaterry View Post
What are everyone else's thoughts?
I am glad we have this thread, the way it was set up. : And I also understand the need to discuss things about the Church that we just don't understand. However, when those discussions take place on MDC, it always disintegrates into the situation you described, always. So I support having two threads or alternate forums for those discussions.
post #465 of 628
I really like the setup for this thread too!

So, DH's younger brother got baptized on Saturday!!! DH baptized him and it was such an amazing day. I won't share all the gory details, but the family they come from is extremely disfunctional. It was so wonderful to feel the spirit so strongly and know that Heavenly Father is watching out for all of them. Now all the siblings are members Younger BIL says he wants to go on a mission so we'll be working on that.

And we got called to nursery : It was a great no CIO nursery before and I'm so glad we can keep it that way. DH doesn't quite understand why I'm so excited
post #466 of 628
I know I said that I wouldn't post here anymore, but I just wanted to make a few things clear.

1. I do not think badly of the First Presidency.

2. I do not think that anyone who follows the First Presidency are sheep.

3. I do not think that reading leaders in Sacrament meeting is wrong.

4. I did not intend to be negative about the church as a whole.

5. I was not criticizing the Prophet, the First Presidency, or the Apostles.

6. I did not know that there are two LDS threads.

I simply didn't *agree* with this one particular issue and wanted to find support -or gentle reminders of what to do- on this issue. Not agreeing doesn't = criticizing.

I'm a new member. I've been in the church two years. I'm the only one in my family. I have like, two church friends all totaled. I have pretty much zero support from anyone when it comes to matters of religion. I'm also new in my ward, and I don't know anyone. I was frustrated with the meeting about this issue, and I am really sorry I didn't come across correctly.

I am praying constantly for understanding on this issue. I want very badly to live the gospel and follow the Prophet. But all this is new to me, even still. I am trying hard but sometimes I fall short. I really need help in these issues.

I don't want to leave the church. I've been thinking about it for more than two days now....actually, ever since June...and every time I even consider it I get a prompting that it's the wrong thing to do.

I truly do love the church and I'm so grateful for the difference it has made in my life.
post #467 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talula Fairie View Post
I know I said that I wouldn't post here anymore, but I just wanted to make a few things clear.

1. I do not think badly of the First Presidency.

2. I do not think that anyone who follows the First Presidency are sheep.

3. I do not think that reading leaders in Sacrament meeting is wrong.

4. I did not intend to be negative about the church as a whole.

5. I was not criticizing the Prophet, the First Presidency, or the Apostles.

6. I did not know that there are two LDS threads.

I simply didn't *agree* with this one particular issue and wanted to find support -or gentle reminders of what to do- on this issue. Not agreeing doesn't = criticizing.

I'm a new member. I've been in the church two years. I'm the only one in my family. I have like, two church friends all totaled. I have pretty much zero support from anyone when it comes to matters of religion. I'm also new in my ward, and I don't know anyone. I was frustrated with the meeting about this issue, and I am really sorry I didn't come across correctly.

I am praying constantly for understanding on this issue. I want very badly to live the gospel and follow the Prophet. But all this is new to me, even still. I am trying hard but sometimes I fall short. I really need help in these issues.

I don't want to leave the church. I've been thinking about it for more than two days now....actually, ever since June...and every time I even consider it I get a prompting that it's the wrong thing to do.

I truly do love the church and I'm so grateful for the difference it has made in my life.
post #468 of 628
Thanks for the hug, mama.

I think that I reacted very emotionally to this particular issue and didn't think it through. I'm working on it, though.

Also: I never said I thought the church should change.
post #469 of 628
Thread Starter 
You were clearly upset that you seemed to be the only one not voting for this bill to pass, something that the First Presidency clearly wants us to support. Then you said you might leave this Church over it.

My exact words were:

Quote:
Since this thread is for support for members who are trying to live the gospel, it would be best if you move your comments to the other monthly LDS thread (I assume it is still ongoing?) which is designed for this type of discussion.
And then you said you wanted to unsubscribe. I was attempting to curb the discussion in a different direction BEFORE it got controversial, by moving it out of the support only thread in case there were things you wanted to say that might not bode well with the sisters who only want this thread as a positive space. I was trying to head off debate and discord, but I failed.
post #470 of 628
I have been rolling this around in my head all day, trying to find a way to phrase this post so that it wouldn't offend those of you whom I love so dearly in real life. I'm not sure I will succeed, but I feel prompted that it's something that should be said. So my apologies in advance.

I think that in this thread we sometimes are so quick to jump to judgement of another's motives that we are actually driving away the spirit and causing more harm than good. For instance, in Talula's case - we could have asked a few more questions to get to the root of what the issue was before asking her to move elsewhere. She is a new convert, and as is the case with new converts, or even recently reactivated members, she is struggling with still understanding everything about the church and why certain doctrine is the way that it is. She posted here, confused and upset. If we had addressed her concerns in this thread, she would have been assured to get doctrinally sound answers that may have helped her work through the issue and come to a sense of peace about it. But if we immediately kick her over to another, less doctrine oriented area, what would happen? She would get ten different people telling her that it was okay, the Church was off about this issue, they didn't believe everything about the Church, the Prophet was wrong, etc. In the end, with that kind of support, a testimony could have been destroyed or severely compromised. I know that I don't want that on my shoulders, and I know you sisters don't want that either. I guess I'm just trying to say that we might want to take a moment to speak a little softer at first, because sometimes our post come off as confrontational when we don't necessarily mean it that way.

I love you all: I hope you still love me, too.
post #471 of 628
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebarnes View Post
I love you all: I hope you still love me, too.
It will take a lot more than that to make me stop loving you.

Based on the comments made, and with past experience on MDC, I just didn't see the conversation going anywhere good. But I don't own the Spirituality forums, so if some of you sisters would like to invite her back to discuss the matter I'll stay out of it. I got nothing from being the Mormon Vigilante last time and I'm not doing a very good job of it now.


There's no white flag smilie, but I'm waving one.
post #472 of 628
Talula Fairie,

What it all comes down to, though, is do you believe President Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God?, because - as they say - when the prophet speaks, the debate is over.

I don't say this to open old wounds, or cause further contention on the thread. I say this with all the love and understanding that I can muster. I also say this coming from the same position as you. I just don't get the big deal when it comes to gay marriage. So what?

HOWEVER, President Monson (and President Hinckley before him) has felt that this is not a political issue, and it is a moral issue, and as such, it is something that the Church has the obligation to weigh in on.

(And, again, so what ... even if it is a "legal" issue, the Church would be right to have a say in it, the Catholic Church is against such things as well, but there's no kerfuffle when the Pope weighs in ... why is it always an issue when the "Mormons" make a big deal about it?)

What matters is that you and I and all of us have a testimony of President Monson. THAT. IS. IT. I may not agree with the position. I may not understand the "why" of it. I just have to know that President Monson is a prophet of God and that the prophet will never lead the people of God astray (in other words, pray ... pray until you get an answer, not just get the answer you "think" you should have).

Again, I don't say that last out of spite or meanness. It comes from having been in the same position. I had just got home from my mission in Brasil when the First Presidency announced a change in missionary policy that I did not agree with. They changed it so that a newly baptized convert was no longer able to be confirmed and recieve the Holy Ghost directly after baptism, but instead was confirmed in Sacrament Meeting on the first Sunday after their baptism.

For many of the people that I had baptized on my mission, that meant they would have had a whole WEEK between baptism and confirmation and a whole WEEK that they would have been without the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and a whole WEEK that Satan could get in and work on them.

I didn't understand it then. I don't understand it now. I didn't agree with it then. I don't agree with it now. HOWEVER, I had and have a testimony of the divine calling of then-President Hinckley and I accepted that there was a reason that I did not know or understand that prompted the change in policy.

Whether you believe me or not, the issue of gay marriage amounts - in the end - to the same and this is coming from someone who believes the same as you ... that there is no reason why we need to worry ourselves about this. Just let those poor people be. So what if they can marry?

Yet, the prophet of God has spoken, and what it comes down to is do you believe in his divine calling or not? If so, then it is clear what needs to happen. If not, then a lot of prayer is in order.

I honestly believe that this is a "wheat and tares" kind of issue - a sifting of the Church, if you will - many people will get angry and leave the Church over this issue which, in the end, is the wrong thing to do. However, my stating that fact will not change it. Prayer ... long, hard, earnest prayer is the only thing that can help you or me or anyone understand and accept the Church's stance on this, whether we agree with it or not.

Pray. That is my advice. Pray for understanding. Pray for knowledge. Pray for wisdom. Pray until your knees hurt. Pray to your Father in Heaven for help and understanding and guidance ... and then wait. Wait not for the answer you "think" you should get but wait until you get His answer.

Try to come to Him with an open mind and a clear heart, because if you go into this prayer antagonistically or with a preconcieved notion of what the outcome is going to be, there is no point. You need to come to this particular prayer as humble and meek as possible and then ask.

Ask if President Monson is a prophet. Ask if this is really God's will. Ask if this is something that the Church should be involved in. Then wait and listen for the answer from your heart ... and not your head. If the answer to any and all of these sincere questions is "yes," then in spite of anything you or I or anyone else may believe "logically," your course is clear.

That is my advice to you, and it is given with all the love, caring, understanding and compassion that I have because I have been in the same boat as you. This was how I found peace with it, and I hope and pray you can too.
post #473 of 628
NCD, I think that is the crux of the matter. Trust and pray for understanding and acceptance. If we believe the prophet is God's representative on Earth, then we have to believe that he is speaking truth. And, if for some reason he didn't , he would be removed and held accountable for that act, not us in obeying. As I have stated before, I am up in the air on how I feel on the gay marriage issue. However, if the prophet were to command me to vote a certain way, I would do it and continue to pray. DH and I were discussing this last night and decided that for most of us, there is an issue that we would really struggle with understanding and have to take on faith obedience. For instance, if the church were to come out tomorrow and command us all to vaccinate our children, I know I would honestly have a super hard time with that one. I would have to dedicate a lot of time to prayer and fasting to be able to do it. But I do believe that in the end I would. I honestly hope it would never come to that. But, as I said, we all have issues we struggle with. As long as we have a testimony of prophets, though, we will be able to come throught the trial.
post #474 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talula Fairie View Post
I know I said that I wouldn't post here anymore, but I just wanted to make a few things clear.

1. I do not think badly of the First Presidency.

2. I do not think that anyone who follows the First Presidency are sheep.

3. I do not think that reading leaders in Sacrament meeting is wrong.

4. I did not intend to be negative about the church as a whole.

5. I was not criticizing the Prophet, the First Presidency, or the Apostles.

6. I did not know that there are two LDS threads.

I simply didn't *agree* with this one particular issue and wanted to find support -or gentle reminders of what to do- on this issue. Not agreeing doesn't = criticizing.

I'm a new member. I've been in the church two years. I'm the only one in my family. I have like, two church friends all totaled. I have pretty much zero support from anyone when it comes to matters of religion. I'm also new in my ward, and I don't know anyone. I was frustrated with the meeting about this issue, and I am really sorry I didn't come across correctly.

I am praying constantly for understanding on this issue. I want very badly to live the gospel and follow the Prophet. But all this is new to me, even still. I am trying hard but sometimes I fall short. I really need help in these issues.

I don't want to leave the church. I've been thinking about it for more than two days now....actually, ever since June...and every time I even consider it I get a prompting that it's the wrong thing to do.

I truly do love the church and I'm so grateful for the difference it has made in my life.
More hugs to you!

I hope me saying I like the setup for this thread didn't come across wrong. I meant that I like that on this thread while we post about our struggles we also don't have to hear that maybe the prophet is wrong and defend church doctrine. I think explaining and clarifying is great and helps me to learn more too.
post #475 of 628
I think the other LDS thread is pretty much gone...I have not gone looking for it, but all the prior participants are on the other forum, and that forum is pretty lively, so I don't think there's anything happening here...

That said, yes, the church has stepped into politics here. I was talking with my mom about it, and she said they have done that one other time in this country: with the equal rights amendment. They said it was a moral issue (as is this one), and they were against ERA. I need to do some serious thinking about that.

That said, I have heard that the church has asked every member in CA to put in at least an hour a week actively supporting prop 8--working in phone banks, passing out pamplets, etc. (That may have been just a stake or regional level thing...while the 'vote yes' was a church level thing.) I know a couple of californians who have put big things on their blogs about it.
post #476 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightonwoman View Post
I think the other LDS thread is pretty much gone...I have not gone looking for it, but all the prior participants are on the other forum, and that forum is pretty lively, so I don't think there's anything happening here...

That said, yes, the church has stepped into politics here. I was talking with my mom about it, and she said they have done that one other time in this country: with the equal rights amendment. They said it was a moral issue (as is this one), and they were against ERA. I need to do some serious thinking about that.

That said, I have heard that the church has asked every member in CA to put in at least an hour a week actively supporting prop 8--working in phone banks, passing out pamplets, etc. (That may have been just a stake or regional level thing...while the 'vote yes' was a church level thing.) I know a couple of californians who have put big things on their blogs about it.
I wasn't going to mention that for the sake of not debating but yes, I knew that. And see, that's why I have such a hard time following this request (since they do "ask" and not "command" I'm going to presume it's a request). When the prophets have commanded/requested we do something in the past, and then later changed their tune, it's always said, "Well, he was acting as a man then, not a Prophet." At least, that's what I was told by an ex-member, it's possible she was mistaken. My husband pointed out to me that even Joseph Smith has made mistakes, like when he gave the manuscripts to Martin Harris.

However, as pointed out in this thread, much prayer is needed on the subject, since I am having a hard time with it. I know that many have said to just follow the Prophet even when you don't understand, that He sees the bigger picture and we'll understand someday. I *have* been doing that when it comes to all gay issues until this point.

I do think that some questioning, some uncertainty isn't always a bad thing...if we do everything the Prophets tell us to, without any thought at all, that's kind of like drinking the kool aid. And again, I want to be *very clear* that I am NOT saying that anyone who follows the Prophet is a sheep, OR that the Prophet is wrong. I am just saying that I don't know when it comes to this specific issue. I hope someday I will.
post #477 of 628
I just want to add my : to NCD and others. Sometimes it's hard to follow the prophet, but if he says it, then our job is 1--to obey and 2--to seek a personal confirmation of the command (if we need/want one). I realize this example is miniscule in comparison, but when President Hinkley said only one set of earrings, that was a little hard for me--I'd been wanting/planning to get a second set that very autumn actually. My roommate had two and I thought it was so cute...but he said no, so I didn't.
God always has His reasons--and so the prophet always has His (God's) reasons too. I know we've heard stories of Brigham Young spouting off about stuff and we know that he was speaking his opinion not official doctrine...but when an official letter comes down, signed by the whole first presidency and/or the 12, that is not spouting off. There may be times when one person gets a little off-track, but I trust that the consensus of the GAs will always be the right direction. It's a comfort to me that even if I struggle with their direction, I know I will be blessed for following it.
NCD--great point about the pope. Do you think if Pres Monson wore a big hat and a white robe that more people would listen to him?!
Talulah, if you're still here... I have gay and bi friends who are great, loving people. I can appreciate how the GLBT community would feel that this was a personal attack and all that...That said, it IS a moral issue. Marriage is an eternal principle--and it is heterosexual. Period. Many people choose to live in relationships without marriage, and that's their prerogative...but the only marriage God recognizes (or ever will) is the kind He created. No matter what legislators or voters say, it's an eternal truth and will not--cannot--change.
post #478 of 628
I actually do agree that marriage is an eternal principle, understand that it can only be between a man and a woman, and all that. I do not, and never did think, that our church should marry gays or seal them in the temple. I have been reading the church's page on the divine institution of marriage, and it helped somewhat with my questions.
post #479 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talula Fairie View Post
When the prophets have commanded/requested we do something in the past, and then later changed their tune, it's always said, "Well, he was acting as a man then, not a Prophet."
I think there are two parts--one, yes, sometimes people spout opinion rather than doctrine... but also two--sometimes things change. Polygamy has sometimes been commanded, and sometimes been a sin...on the other hand, imo that should have been no great shock in the modern era, because it had come and gone in scriptural times too. Ditto with living the law of concentration. However, I am not aware of ANY place in scripture (or modern times) when God or the church has accepted gay practices to any degree. It's simply not a part of celestial marriage. (The people are loved, but the actions are not accepted--just to clarify!)

Quote:
I do think that some questioning, some uncertainty isn't always a bad thing...if we do everything the Prophets tell us to, without any thought at all, that's kind of like drinking the kool aid. And again, I want to be *very clear* that I am NOT saying that anyone who follows the Prophet is a sheep, OR that the Prophet is wrong. I am just saying that I don't know when it comes to this specific issue. I hope someday I will.
I think you have the right attitude about this, and I hope you're able to find some personal resolutions soon
post #480 of 628
One of the things I love about the Church is that if I don't understand or doubt something I can pray about it for myself. I have a testimony of the Prophet and I can also gain my own personal testimony of each principle. That has been so important for me when questions have come up. It's very important to deal with doubts head on in the proper way and not brush them aside. Heavenly Father teaches us to ponder things and pray about them. The pondering part is important too
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