Humane L/O vegatarianism: Is this possible?

[honolula]

(posted in TF AND V&V)

Ok.
So.

The policy I'm trying to establish in regards to my consumer choices is one of trying to put myself in the place of the middle-men and women who bring products to me. In other words, I wouldn't be comfortable running a sweatshop, or killing a cow, so I don't want to benefit from these actions. Ethically, I am comfortable with the humane breeding and slaughter of chickens and fish, but not mammals. That's just me. I've raised chickens, and I've fished, and I don't have a moral dilemma about using these animals as food sources. However, for the time being, I'm not eating fish and poultry because I haven't found a way to do so that I'm Ok with.

I've been given the suggestion of buying local eggs and dairy. The problem I see with that is that I live in Lancaster, PA, and the farms here are almost exclusively Amish and Mennonite. As a general rule, these are old farming families who have a deeply ingraned conciousness of animals as commodities. We are the puppy mill capital of the US, as they say. I'm going to have to do a lot of foot work to find a chicken farm in which chickens are raised and slaughtered humanely, and I'm not sure if I will be able to find a dairy source that I'm comfortable with since, as I said, I am not comfortable with the slaughter of cows, and that is the inevitable end of the road for dairy cows- not to mention: what happens to their offspring? I mean, the ones who are supposed to be drinking their milk?

Your thoughts and knowledge would be so helpful, all of you, veg*ns and omnivores alike, so I'm posting this in both the Veg and TF forums. I realize that my POV is unpleasant to many veg*ns but this is the way I feel. I find the vegan perspective interesting, but I don't share it. I will never empathize with the plight of a wild salmon or a honey bee, but I am not asking you to help me hurt animals. If you do not see any ethical way of taking milk from a cow, or eggs from a chicken, please explain why so that I can better understand.
All others, if you have a different POV, please share.

Thank you all so much!

Laurel

[mz_libbie22]

Originally Posted by honolula

(posted in TF AND V&V)

I'm going to have to do a lot of foot work to find a chicken farm in which chickens are raised and slaughtered humanely, and I'm not sure if I will be able to find a dairy source that I'm comfortable with since, as I said, I am not comfortable with the slaughter of cows, and that is the inevitable end of the road for dairy cows- not to mention: what happens to their offspring? I mean, the ones who are supposed to be drinking their milk?

have you contacted any farms listed here?

[honolula]

That's a great list, thanks! I've done raw milk before so I do have a place in mind, but I will save that link to my favorites and try to make the best choice.

What should I ask them? I don't really know much about the perils of being a pasture-raised cow, yk? I know I want to ask where their cows come from, what happens to their offspring, and what becomes of the cows when they are no longer dairy-producers. What else do I need to be asking them?

[tabitha]

their male offspring get slaughtered. it is inevitable. even if you buy from a farm claiming they never kill them, they sell them to people who do. you cant have a bunch of bulls or old steers eating you out of house and home.

their female offspring become milkers, if they are purebred. if they are crossed with beef, they too are food.

old milk cows go to the market. they are killed.(not saying i will do this when our precious Nimue is old. no, i will nurse her until it is humane to put her down and i will bury her.)

i think the best thing would be for you to really think about what you mean when you say humane slaughter, humane conditions. what is the way you think is good to kill a chicken? we raise meat birds and slit their throats. other chop their heads off. the industry often electrocutes or fatally injects.

our last beef calf lived a happy, grassy life and died instantly. we cherish his nourishment. he drank his mother's milk (from his mother's teats) until he was weaned. there was plenty extra for us. milk cows are bred to produce extra.

anyway, careful thought about the details of what you desire might help you find a happy place on this. or you might not find a comfortable place. it is worth thinking about. personally, and i do not mean to offend, i cant imagine why killing chickens is 'ok' but not cows. in my mind, all animals are living, honorable creatures that i treat with reverence. we give them a life as good as possible and end it as kindly as we can. then we waste nothing, and respect what they have given us with their life.

[Attached Mama]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but don't most Amish raise their animals humanely - letting their chickens free range and then killing them quickly? Never been there, just assumed. If that's a correct assumption then they'd be great for both eggs and chicken. I thought most of them really respect the land and the animals and view them as a gift from God to be stewarded wisely - but then maybe I've just read too many Amish fictional books

As for milk, I really don't know.... Hopefully some others here will have good ideas for local dairy for you. Good luck

Do you have a local farmer's market? Sometimes going and asking a lot of questions is good. If you become a regular, you will be surprised what people are willing to smuggle to you!

Main thing is what do the farmers feed the animals. Chickens should be allowed to run free outside or in a large penned area that is rotated over fresh ground on a very regular basis. (sometimes covered penning is necessary to protect from predators). Most chickens are also supplemented with some grains. It shouldn't contain soy and ideally should be organic tho that can be hard to find.

Anyone processing the chickens themselves is likely doing few enough that they care to do it quickly and humanely. I would just ask how they do it. Many will actually let you go to the farm and watch if you care to.

Cows should be pastured in the summer (and other seasons when possible), never fed grains, given root vegetables and hay in the winter. Silage is a compromise from what I understand tho I do know one local farmer whose silage fed cows dairy is a much better option than store dairy. However, his cheese is white; the cheese from my farmer with the pastured cows is so yellow! Yellow means they are eating lots of grasses and have a wonderful butterfat content that is healthy.

For fish, Eco brand of fish is regularly tested for PCB's and Mercury and is line caught. That's the only kind I eat.

I know there are some places online where you can order humane meat - but not sure where. Hope some others here can help you. Maybe someone who lives in your area...

[Metasequoia]

I'm from SE PA too & I frequently drive out to visit the Amish & Mennonite farmers, they're about 45 minutes from me. The ones I usually go to are WAPFers & their chickens are always roaming free around the farm & the cows are always out to pasture. I haven't seen them butchering chickens or cows, but I happened to be there when they were butchering turkeys. I didn't watch the butchering but was in the tiny shop connected to the bard where it was being done. I did watch the farmer dunking the turkeys into the scalding hot water though.

I have a few recommendations if you'd like them. The two farmers I buy from most frequently are more than pleased to have visitors, no advanced notice necessary. I usually buy our milk right down the street because it's closer & the cows are *always* out to pasture & it's a Camphill farm.

[honolula]

Originally Posted by tabitha

personally, and i do not mean to offend, i cant imagine why killing chickens is 'ok' but not cows. in my mind, all animals are living, honorable creatures that i treat with reverence. we give them a life as good as possible and end it as kindly as we can. then we waste nothing, and respect what they have given us with their life.

I'm not saying I'll feel this way forever. Right now, I'm in phase one: making an honest inventory of the harm done by my choices as a consumer, and removing the middle-men who do the "ugly" parts for me so that I can enjoy the end product. It's between me and myself, really. I want to be able to loook at myself in the mirror and say, "I am Ok with what it took to get food on my table, and shoes on my feet, today."

I don't expect anyone to agree with the disinctions I make between one animal and another. I believe that cats need a certain amount of meat to survive, and I am personally comfortable with chickens being slaughtered to provide that meat, so long as the slaughter is humane. If there is no such thing as humane slaughter, how do you feed your acts? Do you struggle with that?
I'm not offended by your questions. I'm questioning myself right along with you, and I enjoy the challenging questions. They make me think, and that's why I'm here: to think through the whole thing and figure out what I can make work and what I will just have to live without.

peace

[tabitha]

i dont know of those were rhetorical ?s or not, so i promise i am not trying to be argumentative!

i didnt mean to make you think i dont think there is such a thing as humane slaughter. i surely do believe there is. for our chickens, we have found throat-slitting to be sudden and quiet. (and not because we sever the esophagus, because we dont). we have tried other things but this sits well with us. other factors in humane slaughter are how the animals are kept prior to slaughter and whether or not the other birds witness each death.

how do i feed my cat? i feed her whole foods that are mostly meat based. she gets the scraps.

i feel humans need animal products for optimal health. i also know that a small farm needs biodiversity to prosper. our every effort is to secure our food supply in ways that are gentle and healthy.

[Attached Mama]

I can understand what you would mean by a difference between chickens and cows (or other mammals). Chickens really aren't too bright. Some hens have a tendency to eat their own eggs at times and any chicken will eat another downed chicken - even if it's not dead yet. They are cannibals. A cow on the other hand, would never do anything like that. They feed their calves milk like we do our young and they cry if their calves are taken away from them. I think they have a lot more "human" sorts of attributes. The only way I can reconcile eating one in my mind is because I know their death "naturally" would be far worse than at the hands of a caring farmer. Natural death would be from a predator when the cow is old and possibly sick and would not be quick.

Two great books that talk a lot about these sorts of issues (as well as repercussions of our food choices in many other areas) are Full Moon Feast and Omnivore's Dilemna. I highly recommend both!!

[honolula]

Tabitha, the cat Q's weren't rhetorical, or directed at anyone in particular. I plan on having cats when I move out of my present living situation, but I'm making all these changes and I wonder where they will fit in to that.


I feel the way I do about chickens for more or less the same reasons Attached Mama said. I am not converting to vegatarianism/possibly veganism because I believe in the equality of all living things. I wouldn't swerve for a caterpillar in the road the way I would for a squirrel, and I wouldn't swerve for a squirrel as dangerously as I might for a cat, and if my kids were in the car there would be no dangerous swerving, period, unless there was a human being in the road.