Whole Foods/TF(like) Veg*ns - Page 3

[dad2manydh21]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

Well, the reason why calcium from WHOLE raw milk is so bioavailable is because of the cream. There's a lot of nutrients in veggies, but your body can only absorb them if you consume enough fat with them. Little or no fat = little or no mineral absorption, and that includes calcium from low and non-fat milk.

So, then wouldn't that be a perfect reason to eat them with some olive oil or coconut oil? Maybe some flax seed oil?

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by dad2manydh21

So, then wouldn't that be a perfect reason to eat them with some olive oil or coconut oil? Maybe some flax seed oil?

yes, that is how it should be done. However eating it with raw, pastured butter has it's own benefits that *I* would consider to be superior in many ways. vitamins A and d delivered with the fat needed to absorb and utilize it for instance. That said, I often use olive oil when cooking.

You also can't isolate a certain nutrient and presume to know exactly how it is utilized by the body. Noone can. I'm not pushing milk at all, btw. It's just interesting to me that so much emphasis is placed on the micronutrients independently of the cofactors. We just don't have all the answers at this point so it's hard to say that broccoli has a comparable amount of calcium when it's missing many of the things that whole raw milk does.

my family does not drink milk, so again this isn't to say that milk is the greatest food ever...just something to think about.

[Panserbjorne]

love your user name, btw! very cute.

[TopazBlueMama]

So....
I think we can assume for this thread that tradition foods is defined as any food that is in it's whole form, not modern processed, fake, chemical foods. Minus the meat. Respecting those that choose to eat milk and/or dairy.

I think it doesn't take as much fat as one might think to be able to absorb those minerals from plant foods.

Just for full disclosure for me--I don't think I'll ever claim to be vegetarian because I will eat animal foods if I need to. But I'm simply not buying it anymore for various reasons. I think the lastest downer cows recall is absolutely awful. I will not support that. And quite frankly, I'm not going to live beyond my means in trying to buy all perfectly free-range animals.
I also feel like I've come back to living in my truth. When I first started down the nutrition road I was very drawn to eating a plant-based diet. When I decided to go back to that there was just so much peace.
My body just does not do well with a high animal food, lower carb diet. I've tried them, as well as SCD and I feel that they ended up making me much more sugar sensitive. I've been working back up to handling more fruit and certain grains/legumes and am doing quite well. And it is so much more affordable!
I had an awesome green smoothie today from greens that I grew myself that cost PENNIES!

As far as books go--if you can possibly borrow or get Nourishing Traditions from the library I think it would be worth it. There is lots of Veg. stuff in there...it is packed full of interesting things. However, I would just take whatever aspect that you are wanting to learn and borrow books that are just about that. Like books on sprouting, books on sourdough, etc.
Raw vegan books are great for more whole foods ideas too!

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by firefaery

yes, that is how it should be done. However eating it with raw, pastured butter has it's own benefits that *I* would consider to be superior in many ways. vitamins A and d delivered with the fat needed to absorb and utilize it for instance. That said, I often use olive oil when cooking.

You also can't isolate a certain nutrient and presume to know exactly how it is utilized by the body. Noone can. I'm not pushing milk at all, btw. It's just interesting to me that so much emphasis is placed on the micronutrients independently of the cofactors. We just don't have all the answers at this point so it's hard to say that broccoli has a comparable amount of calcium when it's missing many of the things that whole raw milk does.

my family does not drink milk, so again this isn't to say that milk is the greatest food ever...just something to think about.

But here's what I wonder about cow's milk/butter/etc.: Do they contain the right cofactors/nutrients in the right amounts for humans? Cow's milk is obviously the perfect food for baby cows, but is it right for people? What if there are other factors in dairy that are harmful to people?

I'm not really asking you these questions, btw, just saying that's what I wonder about.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by lemongrass

Wow, that's interesting. I noticed their online store is under construction, do you know how much one of those things costs?

I think you can get one for between 30 and 50 bucks. I had bookmarked a site that sold them for a good price, and will post the link when I find it.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by dad2manydh21

So, then wouldn't that be a perfect reason to eat them with some olive oil or coconut oil? Maybe some flax seed oil?

Yes, and also red palm oil, if you can stomach the strong flavor.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by lemongrass

But here's what I wonder about cow's milk/butter/etc.: Do they contain the right cofactors/nutrients in the right amounts for humans? Cow's milk is obviously the perfect food for baby cows, but is it right for people? What if there are other factors in dairy that are harmful to people?

I'm not really asking you these questions, btw, just saying that's what I wonder about.

According to the few cultures (the Swiss and Maasai) who consumed dairy that WAP studied, it can be a good source of nutrients.

But I think it's difficult to find, in the U.S., the quality of milk that they got—I saw a chart comparing Maasai milk to U.S. whole milk, and it could have upwards of 50% cream during the spring and summer. It also had lower amounts of sugar (this was 1970 figures).

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

I think you can get one for between 30 and 50 bucks. I had bookmarked a site that sold them for a good price, and will post the link when I find it.

Thanks

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by dad2manydh21

So, then wouldn't that be a perfect reason to eat them with some olive oil or coconut oil? Maybe some flax seed oil?

Or you could skip the oil and use whole food sources of fats like raw walnuts or avocado.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

According to the few cultures (the Swiss and Maasai) who consumed dairy that WAP studied, it can be a good source of nutrients.

But I think it's difficult to find, in the U.S., the quality of milk that they got—I saw a chart comparing Maasai milk to U.S. whole milk, and it could have upwards of 50% cream during the spring and summer. It also had lower amounts of sugar (this was 1970 figures).

I don't doubt there's nutrients in dairy, but I'm worried about what else might be in the dairy that isn't right for humans (naturally occurring growth hormone factors, that sort of thing).



I just skimmed through WAP's book, and I have a question...did WAP study the oldest members of the groups he visited or was he primarily interested in children and people of reproductive age? I think it's highly feasible that a diet high in animal products would result in people who reached reproductive maturity sooner than a diet low in animal products (based on other things I've read). From an evolutionary perspective, this would be a good thing. Evolution only cares that the species produces offspring that then produce more offspring, etc. This doesn't say much for health into old age and longevity in general, though. It's possible that the diet that is best for reproduction and growth is not necessarily the best diet for living a long disease free life well into old age. It's one thing to look at children and young adults and see the condition of their teeth, and another thing entirely to look at the how many people live very long lives and the health they enjoy during their last years. I need to get a physical copy of the book to read it more in depth...reading online is a pain.

[TopazBlueMama]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

But I think it's difficult to find, in the U.S., the quality of milk that they got?I saw a chart comparing Maasai milk to U.S. whole milk, and it could have upwards of 50% cream during the spring and summer. It also had lower amounts of sugar (this was 1970 figures).

Difficult...or impossible for the majority of us!

[NatureMama3]

I didn't know that was exclusive to TF diets. here we've been doing pretty much that (meat/dairy aside) for a while now just because it makes sense.

[Jeanne D'Arc]

Originally Posted by lemongrass

I don't doubt there's nutrients in dairy, but I'm worried about what else might be in the dairy that isn't right for humans (naturally occurring growth hormone factors, that sort of thing).



I just skimmed through WAP's book, and I have a question...did WAP study the oldest members of the groups he visited or was he primarily interested in children and people of reproductive age? I think it's highly feasible that a diet high in animal products would result in people who reached reproductive maturity sooner than a diet low in animal products (based on other things I've read). From an evolutionary perspective, this would be a good thing. Evolution only cares that the species produces offspring that then produce more offspring, etc. This doesn't say much for health into old age and longevity in general, though. It's possible that the diet that is best for reproduction and growth is not necessarily the best diet for living a long disease free life well into old age. It's one thing to look at children and young adults and see the condition of their teeth, and another thing entirely to look at the how many people live very long lives and the health they enjoy during their last years. I need to get a physical copy of the book to read it more in depth...reading online is a pain.

From what i remember a few tribes did have great longevity, I think
the Eskimo was one of them. I remember read the main cause of death
among primitives was childbirth complications, injury/infection, and
old age.

There was allot of variance in the diet of many of the tribes, If i remember
the Cretians and Hunzas also had great longevity.

oh and yah, i agree with the fact that we need to separate Price from the WaPF. And let us not forget Steffanson who spent quite a bit of time with the Eskimo and studying native diets as well.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Jeanne D'Arc

From what i remember a few tribes did have great longevity, I think
the Eskimo was one of them. I remember read the main cause of death
among primitives was childbirth complications, injury/infection, and
old age.

There was allot of variance in the diet of many of the tribes, If i remember
the Cretians and Hunzas also had great longevity.

oh and yah, i agree with the fact that we need to separate Price from the WaPF. And let us not forget Steffanson who spent quite a bit of time with the Eskimo and studying native diets as well.

What was considered "old age" in the 1930s for the groups of people Price studied? I've been trying to look up the life expectancy for Eskimos during that time, and the number I found was around 60 years old. The Cretians and the Hunzans ate very little animal products (I think less than 10% of their diets). Price didn't visit the Hunzans, did he? Did he go to Crete?

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by lemongrass

What was considered "old age" in the 1930s for the groups of people Price studied? I've been trying to look up the life expectancy for Eskimos during that time, and the number I found was around 60 years old. The Cretians and the Hunzans ate very little animal products (I think less than 10% of their diets). Price didn't visit the Hunzans, did he? Did he go to Crete?

Not only that but the Eskimos (the correct term being Inuits I believe...) live in some pretty extreme conditions. Their bodies evolved to their surroundings where most of us 1) don't live in such extreme weather and 2) aren't immediately from that lineage.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by magstphil

Not only that but the Eskimos (the correct term being Inuits I believe...) live in some pretty extreme conditions. Their bodies evolved to their surroundings where most of us 1) don't live in such extreme weather and 2) aren't immediately from that lineage.

Indeed, poor sanitation, wars, accidents, and other factors outside diets contributed to a short lifespan in the past.

However, the arctic explorer V. Steffanson studied the Eskimos, and was able to examine some old church records which he wrote about in his book, "Cancer: A Disease of Civilization?"

I was able to find a couple of references to the figures in his book:

"Records kept by the Russian Church for the Aleutians and the Moravian Mission for the Labrador Eskimos, in fact, record a fair number of natives who reached the ages of 70 and occasionally 80."

http://www.randygraham.net/html/Cancer_civilization.htm

Chris Masterjohn posted an excerpt from the book on a blog entry Dr. Fuhrman wrote called "Are the Inuit Healthy?" Scroll down to From V. Steffanson, Cancer: A Disease of Civilization? and he has the breakdown of age at death, but not how they died (although Steffanson found they hardly ever died of cancer).

Jeez, I've tried posting this about five times! The server's been busy. Hopefully it'll go through this time.

[Purple Sage]

I've read that the Inuit rarely, if ever, died from cancer until they started eating modern processed foods, too. What I thought was really interesting about them was that, according to Price's book, they found a part of an animal that is extremely high in vitamin C and knew to eat it. That contradicts what Gary Taubes wrote in "Good Calories Bad Calories" about how certain vitamins might not be absolutely necessary, based on populations that eat no plant products. I returned the book to the library so I can't quote where he said it, though. The Inuit, to me, is a great example of the extreme conditions in which the human body can survive - even thrive. Of course, that doesn't mean I want to live or eat like they do, not that I could given my physical location.



By the way, what has everyone been eating lately? I've been eating the same stuff again and again and need some new ideas.

[mommystinch]

One thing my husband and I talk about that seems to be left out of these writings is lifestyle. Granted, I haven't read the books, but I've never heard them mentioned by the people that talk around here about NT, nor have I seen it on the NT board. Sure, some of these people may have eaten a ton of dairy or meat or lard, but they were also much more active people. Most of America is lazy, let's face it. So, eating that way and sitting at a desk and then coming home to sit on the couch and watch tv just isn't the same as eating that way and fighting extreme temps to live (or having to expend energy hunting/gathering, building, etc). Unfortunately, I think it is near impossible to compare what we *should* be eating to how traditional societies ate. So much depends on location and activity. But, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be eating as close to whole foods as possible

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by lemongrass

I've read that the Inuit rarely, if ever, died from cancer until they started eating modern processed foods, too. What I thought was really interesting about them was that, according to Price's book, they found a part of an animal that is extremely high in vitamin C and knew to eat it. That contradicts what Gary Taubes wrote in "Good Calories Bad Calories" about how certain vitamins might not be absolutely necessary, based on populations that eat no plant products. I returned the book to the library so I can't quote where he said it, though. The Inuit, to me, is a great example of the extreme conditions in which the human body can survive - even thrive. Of course, that doesn't mean I want to live or eat like they do, not that I could given my physical location.



By the way, what has everyone been eating lately? I've been eating the same stuff again and again and need some new ideas.

Yes, vitamin C exist in large quantities in raw meat. Heat destroys it. So if you are cooking your meat you would need another source. Once again this goes to show that people do not always take the time to collect all the information. We would be much better served to understand we need a large variety of micronutrients, and that ancient wisdom showed people in different cultures and climes how to adapt.

Still waiting for that 1 book I can get behind 100%!