Dd brought home religious tract from school - Page 3

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by DesireeH

I'm a JW and in school I remember getting in trouble for talking about religion. Even though I was older and me and the other kid both wanted to have the conversation...wasnt handing out tracts. We dont believe in hell at all...so there was nothing "scary" in our conversation....the girl I was talking to was Mormon and we both just liked to talk. The teacher would always tell us to talk about something different. I dont see how our convo with EACH OTHER willingly was hurting anyone.

My son is in public school now and general public school is highly religious IMO. At every holiday (which most are based on some religious belief) its weeks worths of holiday based assignments. Christmas trees, santa, "oh holy night" songs, halloween, easter eggs, valentines parties, the list just goes and goes and goes. I heard a kindy teacher asking the students what the tree on top of the christmas tree was for...the kid didnt give her the answer she wanted and she said "NOPE" and I was thinking "hmmm, not cool!" What she was teaching was HER OWN religious belief and interpretation of the story...to five year olds. So I went and asked. I told her I thought there was a separation of church and state? She said "this is standard curriculum for public education." Religion is allowed in school, so long as you are a majority religion.

If you are jewish, JW, pagan, pan african.....well too bad for us, our kids will be regularly pressured to do assignments based on majority religion. Granted we cant even say WHY we dont want our kids doing those things because THEN they will pull the no religion at school card.

I think this raises a good point. The JW girl I knew in school was stuck being sent elsewhere so we could have our little halloween parties and valentines day and all that. I felt so bad for her, especially since JWs have the reputation of being the ones pushing their beliefs on everyone but she never really talked about religion to us beyond telling us that she couldn't do something on wednesday's because her family had church (sorry I can't remember what they call it... meeting?) that day if we wanted her to do something with us.

It's really not appropriate for them to be doing all these religious holiday based assignments in schools, but I do see the idea that they're going for is to ave the kids do assignments based around holidays that are exciting to them, if that makes sense? Christmas, for instance... many (or most?) kids are thinking and talking about it for all of december anyway, so it's technically a good teaching tactic to have them do their assignments based on their obvious interests. It doesn't change that it's not fair to the rest of the kids, though, and not really appropriate since it's "normalizing" christianity, and leaving everyone else out in the cold.

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by USAmma

I'm just venting. I don't know what makes that mom think it's okay to tell my 7 year old she's going to hell if she has different beliefs.

I think that's wrong too!

I am a Christian and what these people are doing isn't right. I can't believe it's allowed to go on in a public school. I think you were right for standing up to the mother who was trying to push her beliefs on your child. You have a right to your beliefs just as she does. Some of these hard-core religious people out here think it's their way or no way and that's just not right. They deserve to have people put them in their place when needed.

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

And yes, I agree with you, however, that that individual would have been better off asking to speak to the adult of the household instead of taking the liberty of speaking with the child.

Actually that might not help in all situations.

In my town there are people who go door-to-door from local churches trying to talk to parents and get them to "allow" their children to get picked up by a bus on Sunday mornings and be taken to a church with other kids. I assure you that they are teaching your kids what you don't want them to know at some point, especially if you put them on a bus and don't even go with them to hear what is being taught to them. I can't even believe it when I actually see the buses moving through town on Sunday morning with kids on there without their parents.

[kmeyrick]

Legally, how sticky is this? Since it was a kid, the parents could simply say that she took it to school without saying anything and just gave it to a friend, not knowing what it was. And they may say everyone is being mean jumping on a first grade girl.

But I do think the parents need to be held accountable. In my area the kids tend to be religious. We have a lot of JWs, Baptists, some Muslims, Pentecostals, all very observant. The kids talk about it and bring religious items such as a bracelet with Our Lady Guadalupe, religious kids books, and they write about it too. But the parents have never done this. Well, their religions are not cults on the recruit.

It sounds like the only thing the school could do to enforce this would be to suspend kids that do that. But that's terrible to the kid. Maybe the town needs to sue the church, if they are doing other things. But would that work either?

[wifeandmom]

Originally Posted by USAmma

A neighborhood girl also talked to my dd about how bad people go to hell and good people go to heaven. This girl is nice and her family is nice, and they don't try to convert anyone.

I also wonder in the back of my head why would small children be taught about something scary like hell at church?

I didn't read past the OP, but wanted to comment on the above.

Last year, one of the preschool teachers where my older three went to preschool told the 4 year olds that 'hell is where the bad people go'. For whatever reason, that just STUCK in one of my DD's mind. No matter how many ways I've tried to UNDO that one statement, she still asks, nearly 18 months later, if 'bad people go to that bad place' and says 'I don't want to go to that bad place cause that's where mean people go'.

We have *never* supported this concept. We don't believe it to be true. Being good or bad has nothing to do with going to heaven or hell according to our beliefs. Sometimes, the things that come out of kids' mouths are not necessarily things that the parents agree with.

[RiverSky]

I think I'd probably send my child to school with enough pentacle necklaces for all of her friends!

[TEAK's Mom]

RiverSky, I you.

[meowee]

Originally Posted by TEAK's Mom

RiverSky, I you.

So you love the pentacle necklaces but not the christian tracts? Can't you see that your attitude is religious intolerance? I am so tired of religious freedom being applied for "X" religion but not "Z" religion. The freedom applies to christians as much as wiccans, even fundamentalist/ evangelical/ handing-out-scary-tract christians.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I think the school needs to be encouraged to come up with one, consistantly applied standard. Could be "No religious materials to be distributed on school property during school hours". Could be "Its within a student's first amendement rights to pass out religious literature during lunch". Whatever, publicize, enforce it and then tell everyone they need to live by the same standard.

That isn't, of course, going to stop the very determined from passing out stuff on the walk home, or across the street as some have said. I don't think we can OR SHOULD stop that. It is, in this country, within people's rights to do this. If we start taking away those rights, where does it stop? This should be especially clear to those here who subscribe to minority faiths that ignorant people find "scary" because those would be the first to be banned -- those pentacle necklaces for example.

I always figure its an excellent conversation starter with my kids about what we believe and how others have the right to believe as they like. Its just not possible to shield them from everything and I'm not sure it would be good if we did.

[kmeyrick]

I think we could also add that any images of shocking/violent/sexual nature is not permitted, no matter the circumstances or purpose. These are little kids, after all, not teens who can start to form opinions and think critically. So even if it's for religious purposes, these images may not enter school grounds.

[TEAK's Mom]

Meowee, actually, I was joking (well, I do like RiverSky). Of course I do not want to push any religion on anyone. Heck, I'm a pagan married to a Jew; just explaining of family's religious pratices takes longer than most anyone would want to spend listening.

[RubyWild]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree when a child's "age of reasonableness" is, because most JW's believe that there is no "minimal age" to which a child's age of mental capacity is able to accept (even in the most simplistic of terms) what is believed to be fact and what is not.

When we read fairy tales and such to, even toddlers, we make sure they understand that it is a wonderful imaginatory story that some one thought up, not fact, should it become an issue. With that knowledge, a child can make believe something, (that she is a princess, mermaid, etc) but at the end of the day, she knows that it's not real.

Should my child present me with something that other than what I believe, I would explain to him, in age appropriate language, how some people do believe that, but I don't, and this is why.

While, I don't agree with you when you say she would freak out if you told her child (no matter how young) that there was no God, I can agree with you that the individual should have asked if an adult was home. Nobody's perfect and never makes mistakes.

Perhaps the JW's in my life are just more volatile than those in your experience. My aunt flipped out at the tiniest things, when her Dds were children, even someone accidentally asking about a birthday or the time when I was 10 and I tried to do a magic act. Or... The two girls in my high school sewing class, best friend JWs, were pulled from the class when one of the other girls in the class was sewing a wedding dress for a pagan wedding. Or the JW in college who had worked with me in biology labs for 2 terms who refused to speak to me for the rest of the 3rd term when she learned I'm an atheist. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more examples I have, which I just assumed was people trying to protect their children or themselves from other beliefs.

[RiverSky]

Originally Posted by TEAK's Mom

RiverSky, I you.

Aww, thank you, TEAK'sMom!!

Originally Posted by meowee

So you love the pentacle necklaces but not the christian tracts? Can't you see that your attitude is religious intolerance? I am so tired of religious freedom being applied for "X" religion but not "Z" religion. The freedom applies to christians as much as wiccans, even fundamentalist/ evangelical/ handing-out-scary-tract christians.

The whole point is that if one family thinks it's okay to give out religious tracts, they should be equally okay with receiving religious tracts (or pentacles) or whatever. It's only fair. If they said, "thank you" for the necklace, then great, but if they get angry, perhaps their hypocrisy will become apparent. I think it has nothing to do with religious intolerance, I think it's all about equality.

Originally Posted by TEAK's Mom

(well, I do like RiverSky).

And well, because I just can't get enough :, thank you again.

[yarngoddess]

Where I grew up, and my mom worked for almost 20 years, they said that distibution of any "religious" material on school grounds is a violation of school policy and state law. Seperation of church and state. They even went further and said that you couldn't hand out ANY material, ie. party invatations, soccer, girl scouts, boy scouts, t-ball, pee wee football, ANY material was NOT allowed on school grounds.

OP, I would be madder than a hornets nest. There is no excuse for your daughter to get that information during school hours, at school. It isn't acceptable, IMO, and it seems that the girl that handed it out knew that as well (Don't say anything to the teacher? reallly?). This wasn't just her giving your kid a paper, this was her giving the whole class a paper and that's TOTALLY unacceptable. I hope this NEVER happens again, and am so sorry that your daughter got this kind of information. THere are good and bad to every belief structer, and this church sounds like it's a bad aspect.

I really hope the principal DOES something and the school board should make a policy in the student handbook saying that this is against school policy. You should take this paper and concerns to the school board meeting- they are usually open to the public.

[paquerette]

I don't think people really have First Amendment rights in public school. We were barred from wearing tshirts with religious themes on them, not so much as "Jesus Loves Me" or anything similarly innocuous and non-confrontational. And we couldn't hand anything out or do any type of soliciting (except for selling crap for school-related activities).

[MountainLaurel]

Originally Posted by USAmma

I don't know what makes that mom think it's okay to tell my 7 year old she's going to hell if she has different beliefs.

Consider yourself lucky it was only a child telling your kid that and not her teacher. (A friend of mine had some very interesting experiences growing up UU in Jerry Falwell territory.)

[gabysmom617]

Originally Posted by RubyWild

Perhaps the JW's in my life are just more volatile than those in your experience. My aunt flipped out at the tiniest things, when her Dds were children, even someone accidentally asking about a birthday or the time when I was 10 and I tried to do a magic act. Or... The two girls in my high school sewing class, best friend JWs, were pulled from the class when one of the other girls in the class was sewing a wedding dress for a pagan wedding. Or the JW in college who had worked with me in biology labs for 2 terms who refused to speak to me for the rest of the 3rd term when she learned I'm an atheist. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more examples I have, which I just assumed was people trying to protect their children or themselves from other beliefs.

I'm pretty sure that for the handful of bad experiences you've had with JWs, there are probably 10 other ones that may have been in your life growing up that you don't even know were JWs.

I can never, for the life of me, figure out how it's never ok to make a blanket referral to a religion or race or gender or orientation of people but with JWs it's always ok to lump all the millions together as the same based on a couple of experiences with a few oddballs out there..

...Or. Maybe I DO understand.

[gabysmom617]

Originally Posted by mommy68

Actually that might not help in all situations.

In my town there are people who go door-to-door from local churches trying to talk to parents and get them to "allow" their children to get picked up by a bus on Sunday mornings and be taken to a church with other kids. I assure you that they are teaching your kids what you don't want them to know at some point, especially if you put them on a bus and don't even go with them to hear what is being taught to them. I can't even believe it when I actually see the buses moving through town on Sunday morning with kids on there without their parents.

Yeah, that's pretty odd...but I also can assure you that whatever denomination that was with the bus going to the church for the kids and not the parents was not JW.

For what it's worth, that example is totally different from what I was saying. We are talking about apples and oranges.

There is no way I would allow my child to be shipped off on a bus somewhere and I don't know what they are teaching him while he's away from me. (Which is why I plan to homeschool...)

Anyhow, JWs don't seperate kids from parents. there are no kid centers, no school buses for kids only, or sunday school, any of that. Kids and parents are together learning the same thing, the same teachings together as a family. Since there is no separation of the family, then there is nothing that is being taught to a child that a parent doesn't know about, and therefore cannot be discussed if it's something that mom/dad feels the need to point out.

[MattBronsil]

To the OP:

I haven't taken the time to read all the replies yet. I will once I'm done with this. I just want to reply to what I first saw without getting too confused in, what I am sure, is quite an interesting discussion.

It sounds like, from your first post, you're doing a good job of handling this.

A key thing to keep in mind is that, although it is hard to do, we have to put this particular church into perspective. I'm not saying we accept it and are glad it's around. I'm saying we have to accept that there are people like this and, no matter what, they're simply not going away. This leaves us with only one thing to focus on: our own attitude towards them.

Your best resource for your daughter learning how to think about these things is your daughter. Ask her if she feels this information is right. What does her gut tell her? What does she really feel about God and how God handles people? Does God love all people or does he only care about the ones that go to a particular church.

There may be some very powerful Scripture messages as part of that pamphlet as well. As an adult, take the time to look them up and read the context around them. Often times, it is one line taken out of context. If it is, present what you have found to your daughter and explain it.

The idea of Heaven and Hell is a difficult one at this age. There are a lot of questions in many children's mind about death and they are starting to come to the realization of death and not able to grasp it. Their Theology is also changing on a developmental level. This is an age where it goes from a very spiritual understanding to an extremely literal one. Where a 4 or 5 year old might say God is "everywhere" and describe God more as a presence, a child of this age has more an image of God as "the man in the sky" like you see in Cartoons. (Many adults don't even pass out of this stage and dismiss religion entirely because of this stage, without fully understanding it.) Can hell be presented to children at this age? Yes...it can be. It just has to be done properly considering exactly where the child is. It has to be done very carefully so we do not fall into a trap of "you're going to hell and I'm not," which can be a very scary, and real, image to the child of this age.

Exactly HOW to do that will be different and that requires you, as a parent, to really examine your own beliefs about it. From there, you can draw a lot of information. As a general idea to help with this, think of Hell more in terms of how we relate to one another and how we are all seekers in life to find a purpose. I believe, and I could write a whole Scriptural dissertation of this, that when we really talk about Heaven and Hell, we're talking about an extension of how we live our lives. Do we live to experience these relationships with others and seek them out in all their glory? Or do we live to harm others and isolate ourself and push others away?

[RubyWild]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

I'm pretty sure that for the handful of bad experiences you've had with JWs, there are probably 10 other ones that may have been in your life growing up that you don't even know were JWs.

I can never, for the life of me, figure out how it's never ok to make a blanket referral to a religion or race or gender or orientation of people but with JWs it's always ok to lump all the millions together as the same based on a couple of experiences with a few oddballs out there..

...Or. Maybe I DO understand.

I said that a specific JW would likely be upset if I tried to push atheism onto her 5 year old child. You said that you doubted that. I gave examples of people in my past who were upset. I wasn't generalizing to all JWs. I was making a prediction based on my past experiences, which, as an individual, I acknowledge are just as biased as any other individual's experiences.

I was not attempting to predict the behavior/thoughts of the people of an entire religion.