A couple of questions about weeds

[Rikki Jean]

Real quickly, here's some backround on our property- we live on a little less than 1/3 acre, with our house taking up about 900 sq ft of that. There is a ton of yard space, but it hasn't been taken care of for years. The backyard was probably neglected for about 15 years before we moved in. During the summer, everything is dead and dusty, and as soon as it rains, we have a massive weed jungle.

DH, his grandparents, DS1, and I spent about four hours outside today, attacking weeds. DH and his grandpa spent the whole time mowing down the weeds, which were about three feet high. Just the mowing was such a tough job that they only got about 70% through it all (they'll finish next weekend). And, of course, there are still weeds all over the ground, they've just been cut down.

Grandma, DS1, and I worked in a corner of the front yard that is going to be my garden, for now. We were pulling weeds and cleaning it all up to get ready for planting.

Let me tell you, we have sooooo many weeds. I've never done this before, so I guess I have nothing to compare it to, but it seems to me that taking three hours for 2 1/2 people (DS was really just throwing the pulled weeds around, and digging in the dirt ) to pull weeds in a bed that's maybe 7x7x4 is a really long time. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm not, lol.

Anyway, here are my questions/concerns:

-With the backyard, I'm not really sure what to do. Pulling those weeds is going to take for-ever-er. We're not going to use the back for anything more than composting this season, so the idea I kind of have is to pull them one section at a time, little by little, and just keep mowing the rest down. Eventually, we'll have it all taken care of.

Is this a silly idea? Is there anything better/easier/more logical/more ecological/agriculturally sound that we should do instead? DH's grandma says that we should just use weed killer since we're not planting back there right now, but that's not really something I'm interested in doing.

On a side note to that, they used weed killer back there for just about forever. Is there anything I need to be aware of, since I'll eventually be planting food there?

-Now that we have the front cleaned up, how do I keep the weeds at bay? Do I just need to keep an eye out for them, and nip them as soon as I see them sprouting up? I know that we didn't get every single little root, so I'm assuming I'll be pulling them for quite a while anyway.


Sorry this got so long!

[wrenbrrd]

Derrick Jensen writes in one of his books (maybe it was The Culture of Make Believe?) that when he moved to his home, it was surrounded by the typical lawn. Lawns are the antithesis of what he's about, so he left it alone (i.e., didn't cut it). "Weeds" grew up, but they died when the frost came. The following season, different weeds came in. This happened for a few years. Then Derrick noticed that indigenous species of plants were growing by themselves. Some people might still call these weeds, but natives are really beautiful & necessary. When I became a certified wildlife habitat steward, this fact was confirmed in the seminar as well. So perhaps instead of butting heads with nature, you might just let it alone. And once your backyard (even if just part of it) is wild, you go to the National Wildlife Federation's website, fill out a survey, and get a cool sign to stake in your yard stating it's an official wildlife habitat.

[FarmerCathy]

Wow, sounds like a LOT of weeds. Buckwheat is good at choking out weeds. You could get a few pounds of those and throw them everywhere you want to get rid of weeds. Buckwheat is easy to harvest too and better than wheat since its actually an herb. So, it will do two things for you, choke out weeds and a good grain to use. Or/And you could put newspaper and or cardboard down after you mow the weeds and then layer it with compost, sand, etc. Like a lasagna garden essentially. Build up the soil from the ground up, then you won't be using the soil directly that had the weed killer on it. Good luck!

[Rikki Jean]

Well, I wrote a nice long response, and it got deleted, of course. Darn that "server is too busy" message! So, here goes again.

Originally Posted by wrenbrrd

Derrick Jensen writes in one of his books (maybe it was The Culture of Make Believe?) that when he moved to his home, it was surrounded by the typical lawn. Lawns are the antithesis of what he's about, so he left it alone (i.e., didn't cut it). "Weeds" grew up, but they died when the frost came. The following season, different weeds came in. This happened for a few years. Then Derrick noticed that indigenous species of plants were growing by themselves. Some people might still call these weeds, but natives are really beautiful & necessary. When I became a certified wildlife habitat steward, this fact was confirmed in the seminar as well. So perhaps instead of butting heads with nature, you might just let it alone. And once your backyard (even if just part of it) is wild, you go to the National Wildlife Federation's website, fill out a survey, and get a cool sign to stake in your yard stating it's an official wildlife habitat.

Well, there are a couple of reasons that this won't work for us. First of all, we want to eventually be using as much of our land as we can for food. Also, we're going to be getting chickens in the next year, so I don't know that I really want to be harboring any kind of wildlife back there, lol. Thirdly, we rent from DH's great-grandpa, and his grandparents are our landords. They don't mind us growing food everywhere, but I know that they're definitely not okay with us growing a weed jungle in the backyard.

Thank you for the great suggestion though. I do think it's a cool idea that we would consider if circumstances were different, but it won't work for us right now.

Originally Posted by FarmerCathy

Wow, sounds like a LOT of weeds. Buckwheat is good at choking out weeds. You could get a few pounds of those and throw them everywhere you want to get rid of weeds. Buckwheat is easy to harvest too and better than wheat since its actually an herb. So, it will do two things for you, choke out weeds and a good grain to use. Or/And you could put newspaper and or cardboard down after you mow the weeds and then layer it with compost, sand, etc. Like a lasagna garden essentially. Build up the soil from the ground up, then you won't be using the soil directly that had the weed killer on it. Good luck!

So, if we go with buckwheat, is my yard going to look like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nalgae/1388093968/?

Seriously though, I think it's a fabulous idea. I'm putting an order in with Peaceful Valley tonight, and I just added a few pounds of buckwheat onto it. So, should I just expect the weeds in the area where the buckwheat is to just disappear? Also, do I really just throw it on?

As far as the "lasagna garden" goes, I think I get what you're saying...sort of. How would I pile it so that it would be sturdy enough but also deep enough for the plants to have roots? Sorry if that's a silly question. Don't forget, I'm a gardening virgin.


DH says that we should just get a goat (something we'd like to do eventually anyway), and let the goat take care of atleast the far back part of the backyard. He could be on to something...

[geogal17]

If the weeds are so thick you can cut it like sod. Its about $65 to rent a sod cutter at Home Depot. It cuts into long strips, then you can shorten thse striped with a spade then flip it over weed side down. Then you can do like Farmer Cathy suggested and put news paper or cardboard on top to get the plant matter to break down. Get some corn gluten meal or some of the preen organic weed preventer ( which is just corn gluten) and its supossed ot cut back new weeds from starting up in the newly turned ground, but its directions say reapply every 6 weeks.

In our yard we had to kill everything down to the ground with round up. Once they were dead they pulled up much easier. I hate using it, but there wasn't enough boiling water or vinegar in my house to kill so many weeds LOL. The label says the chemicals just break down in the soil...I don't know how much is true, I try not to think about it. The top foot or so of soil has all been moved against a different fence as support so I'm planting in homefully less chamically polluted soil. But I hear ya its slow going when you're dealing with native plants.

If I had time and was more patient sowing buckwheat or clover or alfalfa probably would have been better and "healthier" for the soil as a whole.

[Jojo F.]

For us, I don't worry so much about weeds. If we have chickweed or dandelions I just harvest those to eat/teas. They are free and good for you Other wise you can use straight vinegar to kill unwanted weeds, works like a charm.

[Rikki Jean]

Originally Posted by geogal17

If the weeds are so thick you can cut it like sod. Its about $65 to rent a sod cutter at Home Depot. It cuts into long strips, then you can shorten thse striped with a spade then flip it over weed side down. Then you can do like Farmer Cathy suggested and put news paper or cardboard on top to get the plant matter to break down. Get some corn gluten meal or some of the preen organic weed preventer ( which is just corn gluten) and its supossed ot cut back new weeds from starting up in the newly turned ground, but its directions say reapply every 6 weeks.

In our yard we had to kill everything down to the ground with round up. Once they were dead they pulled up much easier. I hate using it, but there wasn't enough boiling water or vinegar in my house to kill so many weeds LOL. The label says the chemicals just break down in the soil...I don't know how much is true, I try not to think about it. The top foot or so of soil has all been moved against a different fence as support so I'm planting in homefully less chamically polluted soil. But I hear ya its slow going when you're dealing with native plants.

If I had time and was more patient sowing buckwheat or clover or alfalfa probably would have been better and "healthier" for the soil as a whole.

umm...i don't know what it's like to cut sod...

i read about the roundup in your blog. fun stuff.

is sowing clover going to be super time consuming? uh oh...

btw cindy, i'm erica from apie; the one looking for a nursery/garden supply.

[Rikki Jean]

Originally Posted by Jojo F.

For us, I don't worry so much about weeds. If we have chickweed or dandelions I just harvest those to eat/teas. They are free and good for you Other wise you can use straight vinegar to kill unwanted weeds, works like a charm.

so, i just pour the vinegar right on? anything else involved?

[texmati]

Did you just move into our house! !!! We had the same issue as you... today we broke down and signed a contract with gro green. the lasgna gardening sounds like a good idea. So does the goat... I wish those were allowed in our area!

[geogal17]

Originally Posted by Rikki Jean

btw cindy, i'm erica from apie; the one looking for a nursery/garden supply.

LOL I figured that out pretty quickly.


Sowing clover/buckwheat isnt time consuming, I just REALLY wanted to get veggies out of my yard this year instead of waiting months watching clover grow. Next year I'll probably just plant half the yard and solarize the rest, then switch off the next year. :

ever seen sod sold at lowes or home depot? its just like a roll of grass carpet. When weeds grow thick enough their roots weave thick enough you can 'slice' it off the top of the ground in the same way. You can use a spade to do this, but its HARD work, which is why I love sod cutter machines. You can pile the sod off to the side ot slowly compost leaving your yard really to add fertilizer and such, or flip the sod over on the ground and put other stuff on top if you aren't planting right away.

this photo has some good info

http://makeover.about.com/od/yardgar...ing_beds_4.htm

give ya a rough idea.

You should totally come out to my house when you're out this area of the IE, I'll talk garden talk to you till you fall asleep, plus my house is a breastfeeding friendly zone!

[nattybo]

I can so totally relate with you Rikki Jean. The struggles! and pain! and blistered fingers from pulling weeds for hours and hours and days on end! And then turn around and those weeds would be back! I could go on forever about my struggles I have had with my own wild and crazy jungle.

Ok here is what worked for me. It's almost magical. Seriously. And these results were so fast and painless. Give it a try and you will see what I mean.

1. Mow down the weeds with a lawn mower (no bag) or use a weed wacker. Leave the weeds where they fall.
2. dig out any sappling trees or thorny briars and toss those into a compost heap.
3. Lay down one layer of cardboard or sheets of newspaper 4+ layers thick. Weighing them down with rocks/bricks as you go along.
4. Hose down the newspaper (or not if its going to rain soon anyway).
5. Cover it with at least 3 inches of mulch, picking out the rocks/bricks as you lay on the mulch. Or, instead of the mulch, you could start a lasagna garden.
6. Presto! Weeds gone! instant garden!

My mulch of choice was the free mulch provided by the county. Every few years the county will come through our neighborhood and trim the trees. They will deliver to your house as much as you want. But it has to be when they are in your neighborhood...otherwise, you have to make a trip to their recycling center with a truck to pick up the mulch.

[lightheart]

the first clearing will take longer than keeping things maintained. if you continue to mow it will get better. come up with a long term plan of what you want to use certain areas for whether it's a stutcre like a shed or chicken coop, don't really need to improve the soil there so just mow in those areas. say you want a flower garden there and a veggie patch there, start composting in those areas, pile the brush/weeda up there and just let it rot.

You can also smother out the weeds with tarp or a piece of plastic, not all of them but most, so if you deide garden there... then lay down a tarp and wait and wait and wait, peek under as time goes and you'll see the plants dying, depending on your climate may take just a little bit of time... have you ever seen the damage to the grass/weeds that a little wading pool does in just a week left and filled up? with the plants dead it will be easier to pull them up and toss them in the compost.

[Jojo F.]

Originally Posted by Rikki Jean

so, i just pour the vinegar right on? anything else involved?

I keep straight vinegar in a spray bottle and then just spray the weeds I don't want.

[garden-gal]

We use the vinegar method too for small areas of weeds and in the gravel drive, but it really only seems to work best on broad leaf weeds. To get rid of weeds in larger areas, get some black plastic and put it over the area you want to be weed free. Cover the edges with dirt or rocks to hold it down. This will not only kill the weeds already present, but sterilizes the soil, meaning most of the weed seeds laying in wait to sprout will be killed by the intense heat from the sun that builds up under the black plastic. Once the weeds are dead, you can go ahead and do your planting. If you can find a good source of leaves, you can cover the bare areas around your plants with the leaves to keep any future weeds from coming in. The leaves will break down over time and feed the soil as well as build up soil fertility and draw worms that will further help your cause.

We actually have quite a bit of land and no neighbors real close, so we use a piggy (natural tiller) to not only kill weeds in a future garden area, but we are constantly adding leaves from the woods surrounding us to his pen, he tills them under, and the soil fertility is amazing after he has had his 6 month stay in that area. Many farmers are starting to rent out pigs for just this purpose. They can get smelly if you don't keep their pen full of leaves and in many areas this just wouldn't work because of people's natural thoughts on pigs, but it is an idea for some. The goat idea is a thought too, but they can be just as hard to keep penned up as a pig and the smell may also be a problem for some. If you're in a semi-populated area, I would just opt for the black plastic idea.

[FarmerCathy]

All great ideas mamas.

Originally Posted by Rikki Jean

So, if we go with buckwheat, is my yard going to look like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nalgae/1388093968/? .

Haha! Yeah, probably. You'd have buckwheat for eons though.

Originally Posted by Rikki Jean

Seriously though, I think it's a fabulous idea. I'm putting an order in with Peaceful Valley tonight, and I just added a few pounds of buckwheat onto it. So, should I just expect the weeds in the area where the buckwheat is to just disappear? Also, do I really just throw it on?

As far as the "lasagna garden" goes, I think I get what you're saying...sort of. How would I pile it so that it would be sturdy enough but also deep enough for the plants to have roots? Sorry if that's a silly question. Don't forget, I'm a gardening virgin.


DH says that we should just get a goat (something we'd like to do eventually anyway), and let the goat take care of atleast the far back part of the backyard. He could be on to something...

Goats are browsers. They like brush better. You'd need a sheep, they are grazers.

Originally Posted by geogal17

If the weeds are so thick you can cut it like sod. Its about $65 to rent a sod cutter at Home Depot. It cuts into long strips, then you can shorten thse striped with a spade then flip it over weed side down. Then you can do like Farmer Cathy suggested and put news paper or cardboard on top to get the plant matter to break down. Get some corn gluten meal or some of the preen organic weed preventer ( which is just corn gluten) and its supossed ot cut back new weeds from starting up in the newly turned ground, but its directions say reapply every 6 weeks.

In our yard we had to kill everything down to the ground with round up. Once they were dead they pulled up much easier. I hate using it, but there wasn't enough boiling water or vinegar in my house to kill so many weeds LOL. The label says the chemicals just break down in the soil...I don't know how much is true, I try not to think about it. The top foot or so of soil has all been moved against a different fence as support so I'm planting in homefully less chamically polluted soil. But I hear ya its slow going when you're dealing with native plants.

If I had time and was more patient sowing buckwheat or clover or alfalfa probably would have been better and "healthier" for the soil as a whole.

Sod cutter idea is really cool.

Originally Posted by garden-gal

We use the vinegar method too for small areas of weeds and in the gravel drive, but it really only seems to work best on broad leaf weeds. To get rid of weeds in larger areas, get some black plastic and put it over the area you want to be weed free. Cover the edges with dirt or rocks to hold it down. This will not only kill the weeds already present, but sterilizes the soil, meaning most of the weed seeds laying in wait to sprout will be killed by the intense heat from the sun that builds up under the black plastic. Once the weeds are dead, you can go ahead and do your planting. If you can find a good source of leaves, you can cover the bare areas around your plants with the leaves to keep any future weeds from coming in. The leaves will break down over time and feed the soil as well as build up soil fertility and draw worms that will further help your cause.

We actually have quite a bit of land and no neighbors real close, so we use a piggy (natural tiller) to not only kill weeds in a future garden area, but we are constantly adding leaves from the woods surrounding us to his pen, he tills them under, and the soil fertility is amazing after he has had his 6 month stay in that area. Many farmers are starting to rent out pigs for just this purpose. They can get smelly if you don't keep their pen full of leaves and in many areas this just wouldn't work because of people's natural thoughts on pigs, but it is an idea for some. The goat idea is a thought too, but they can be just as hard to keep penned up as a pig and the smell may also be a problem for some. If you're in a semi-populated area, I would just opt for the black plastic idea.

Forgot about the vinegar. Thanks for the reminder. Oh, and the pig, I've always wanted to do that. If you feed them an organic diet without meat in thier feed they tend to be less stinky.

[wordmommy]

Does your local garden supply store sell flame throwers? No, seriously! You can rent a modified flame thrower that will burn up your weeds and their seeds. Although...in SoCal, maybe not so much with the open flames. (Sorry, just saw your location.)

[FarmerCathy]

Oh yeah, totally forgot about those. They look so cool!

[Rikki Jean]

thank you so much for all of the responses everyone! now that you ladies have armed me with all of this info, i'm feeling a lot more confident about the weed problem! since we have so much space back there, i think i may try a liitle bit of everything, and just see what works best!

dh's grandma thinks i'm nuts, and is trying to get me to do weed killer. "it's safe for animals and vegetable plants within 18 hours," she says. yeah, right! not in my world!

Originally Posted by aquarian

Did you just move into our house! !!! We had the same issue as you... today we broke down and signed a contract with gro green. the lasgna gardening sounds like a good idea. So does the goat... I wish those were allowed in our area!

what's gro green?

Originally Posted by geogal17

LOL I figured that out pretty quickly.


Sowing clover/buckwheat isnt time consuming, I just REALLY wanted to get veggies out of my yard this year instead of waiting months watching clover grow. Next year I'll probably just plant half the yard and solarize the rest, then switch off the next year. :

ever seen sod sold at lowes or home depot? its just like a roll of grass carpet. When weeds grow thick enough their roots weave thick enough you can 'slice' it off the top of the ground in the same way. You can use a spade to do this, but its HARD work, which is why I love sod cutter machines. You can pile the sod off to the side ot slowly compost leaving your yard really to add fertilizer and such, or flip the sod over on the ground and put other stuff on top if you aren't planting right away.

this photo has some good info

http://makeover.about.com/od/yardgar...ing_beds_4.htm

give ya a rough idea.

You should totally come out to my house when you're out this area of the IE, I'll talk garden talk to you till you fall asleep, plus my house is a breastfeeding friendly zone!

thank for the info! i will definitely let you know the next time i'm out there! do you go to the pomona valley hmn group? i was at the food not lawns presentation last month...

Originally Posted by nattybo

I can so totally relate with you Rikki Jean. The struggles! and pain! and blistered fingers from pulling weeds for hours and hours and days on end! And then turn around and those weeds would be back! I could go on forever about my struggles I have had with my own wild and crazy jungle.

Ok here is what worked for me. It's almost magical. Seriously. And these results were so fast and painless. Give it a try and you will see what I mean.

1. Mow down the weeds with a lawn mower (no bag) or use a weed wacker. Leave the weeds where they fall.
2. dig out any sappling trees or thorny briars and toss those into a compost heap.
3. Lay down one layer of cardboard or sheets of newspaper 4+ layers thick. Weighing them down with rocks/bricks as you go along.
4. Hose down the newspaper (or not if its going to rain soon anyway).
5. Cover it with at least 3 inches of mulch, picking out the rocks/bricks as you lay on the mulch. Or, instead of the mulch, you could start a lasagna garden.
6. Presto! Weeds gone! instant garden!

My mulch of choice was the free mulch provided by the county. Every few years the county will come through our neighborhood and trim the trees. They will deliver to your house as much as you want. But it has to be when they are in your neighborhood...otherwise, you have to make a trip to their recycling center with a truck to pick up the mulch.

thanks for this! i'll have to see if our county gives mulch away...

Originally Posted by lightheart

the first clearing will take longer than keeping things maintained. if you continue to mow it will get better. come up with a long term plan of what you want to use certain areas for whether it's a stutcre like a shed or chicken coop, don't really need to improve the soil there so just mow in those areas. say you want a flower garden there and a veggie patch there, start composting in those areas, pile the brush/weeda up there and just let it rot.

You can also smother out the weeds with tarp or a piece of plastic, not all of them but most, so if you deide garden there... then lay down a tarp and wait and wait and wait, peek under as time goes and you'll see the plants dying, depending on your climate may take just a little bit of time... have you ever seen the damage to the grass/weeds that a little wading pool does in just a week left and filled up? with the plants dead it will be easier to pull them up and toss them in the compost.

good point about the chicken coop. we're going to be doing that sometime in the next year, so we may just continue to mow in that area for now, but not worry about erradication.

i'm thinking about trying out the plastic idea in at least one area.

Originally Posted by garden-gal

We use the vinegar method too for small areas of weeds and in the gravel drive, but it really only seems to work best on broad leaf weeds. To get rid of weeds in larger areas, get some black plastic and put it over the area you want to be weed free. Cover the edges with dirt or rocks to hold it down. This will not only kill the weeds already present, but sterilizes the soil, meaning most of the weed seeds laying in wait to sprout will be killed by the intense heat from the sun that builds up under the black plastic. Once the weeds are dead, you can go ahead and do your planting. If you can find a good source of leaves, you can cover the bare areas around your plants with the leaves to keep any future weeds from coming in. The leaves will break down over time and feed the soil as well as build up soil fertility and draw worms that will further help your cause.

We actually have quite a bit of land and no neighbors real close, so we use a piggy (natural tiller) to not only kill weeds in a future garden area, but we are constantly adding leaves from the woods surrounding us to his pen, he tills them under, and the soil fertility is amazing after he has had his 6 month stay in that area. Many farmers are starting to rent out pigs for just this purpose. They can get smelly if you don't keep their pen full of leaves and in many areas this just wouldn't work because of people's natural thoughts on pigs, but it is an idea for some. The goat idea is a thought too, but they can be just as hard to keep penned up as a pig and the smell may also be a problem for some. If you're in a semi-populated area, I would just opt for the black plastic idea.

thanks for more info on the plastic idea!

i actually don't think our neighbors would be bothered by a pig. i'll keep that one on file for the future.

Originally Posted by FarmerCathy

Haha! Yeah, probably. You'd have buckwheat for eons though.

Originally Posted by FarmerCathy

Goats are browsers. They like brush better. You'd need a sheep, they are grazers.

Good to know!

Originally Posted by wordmommy

Does your local garden supply store sell flame throwers? No, seriously! You can rent a modified flame thrower that will burn up your weeds and their seeds. Although...in SoCal, maybe not so much with the open flames. (Sorry, just saw your location.)

Wow, what a cool idea! I don't think we could do that here though, especially with the high winds we're having right now. I do really like that idea though...hmm...


eta: this made me think of something funny. dh's grandpa grew up in the house right nextdoor to here. at that time there was nothing but a field on this property. sometime during his childhood, dh's grandpa ste the entire field on fire! i could ask him if he'd like to come over and re-live his childhood...