Do I really have to supplement with formula? - Page 5

[alegna]

Originally Posted by wannabe

But Angela, we're not talking about risking a nursing relationship, we're talking about an occasional bottle.

...which can be a risk to a nursing relationship.

-Angela

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by alegna

...which can be a risk to a nursing relationship.

-Angela

Yup...DD got 3 bottles of EBM when she was kidnapped to the NICU...we never did get her on the breast successfully. Having to end up exclusively pumping for 4 months until we at least got her on part time was a nightmare I wouldn't wish on anybody.

[hanno]

Originally Posted by wannabe

Hanno, for future reference, it's very much not recommended to feed babies who aren't on solids water. It can make them very sick.

Can I have some sources on that?
I'm going to have to disagree with your expertise here, wannabe.
I'm talking less than an ounce. Gripe water has water, herbal tea has water, medecines have water and even breastmilk has water!

[thismama]

Originally Posted by wannabe

But Angela, we're not talking about risking a nursing relationship, we're talking about an occasional bottle.

Well but it depends on the baby though, and you have to find the balance between the 'occasional bottle' that the baby has the skill to take (many bf babies who dont have the bottle intro'ed early wont take the bottle) vs. the risk that the babe will prefer the bottle and not take the breast. So it's not as easy as 'oh we can give an occasional bottle and the babe will definitely take it and it definitely wont risk nursing.'

I wish it were that easy!

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by thismama

Well but it depends on the baby though, and you have to find the balance between the 'occasional bottle' that the baby has the skill to take (many bf babies who dont have the bottle intro'ed early wont take the bottle) vs. the risk that the babe will prefer the bottle and not take the breast. So it's not as easy as 'oh we can give an occasional bottle and the babe will definitely take it and it definitely wont risk nursing.'

I wish it were that easy!

yeah, i know that if we had not intro'd the bottle early, there is no WAY in hades DD would've ever taken a bottle. it was hard enough as it was--she was iffy from about 2-3 months with it, and we started at 2 weeks.

i guess i did a dumb thing intro'ing the bottle at 2 weeks, but an LC who had worked with us said it should be fine, and it was. we did about a bottle a week from 2 weeks on. so i guess it worked out. she was such a great nurser from minute 1 that i have never, ever worried she would wean because of a bottle or two. i just don't think so.

so i agree, it comes down to the baby and the mom's needs. if your baby is a great nurser, and you know you're gonna have to do bottles, then you just start them when you feel comfortable.

i guess there's also a difference between a baby who gets a few bottles a week or month and one who gets several a day...

[merry-mary]

Originally Posted by blueridgewoman

Everyone keeps saying that eventually, when dd is older, I'll have to supplement with formula while she's eating solids. I'm very opposed to formula (sorry...I know that there are absolutely cases where its necessary, etc) and I really really don't want her to get a single drop. Do I have to eventually supplement, or if I practice CLW and she goes for a few years, is that okay?

I guess what I'm asking is, what's the cutoff age where, if she should wean herself, do I not have to supplement her?

The answer, as I think everyone has pointed out, is no! You do not need to supplement. I think this "advice" comes from the misperception that once you introduce solids, your milk supply will dwindle, which will force you to supplement with formula. As long as breastmilk continues to provide the majority of baby's diet for that first year and as long as you continue to offer the breast often (however often baby eats) your supply should keep up with baby's needs.

At the age of one, most doctors will say it's OK to introduce cow's milk, so no formula is needed. That is IF you decide to go that route. You can continue nursing for as long as you'd like - you don't need to offer cow's milk, just as you won't need to supplement with formula.

As for the bottle debate/discussion - it all depends on your situation! I work outside the home part-time, so bottles were an absolute necessity: DS needed to learn to take one, and I needed to get myself on a good pumping schedule. I offered the first bottle at 3 weeks and continued offering one on a semi-regular basis (probably a few times per week) until I returned to work when DS was about 7 months old. It took awhile before DS was OK with the bottle: we had a few weeks where he didn't want much to do with it. Persistency and consistency in offering it eventually paid off. AND I made sure to pump when my DH offered the bottle of EBM.

Good luck! And ignore those who say you'll have to supplement. Despite the fact that I worked 4 days a week, DS never once had formula.

[macca]

Originally Posted by readytobedone

i would just like to point out that, for moms who plan to WOH at any point during their child's first year, taking a bottle might be very useful if not necessary.

i had to be away from DD for a few hours at a time, a couple times a week, starting at 3.5 months and we worked very hard from 2 weeks on to get me pumping regularly and her taking a bottle. it took several different bottle nipples, and a lot of experimenting with bottlenursing positions, but she did finally take a bottle--and if she had not, i don't know how i would've done my school stuff and made a living. she needed to nurse or get a bottle every 90 minutes for a long time, and i just couldn't work around that!

so to say, "statistically it's not likely they'll need a bottle"--this really only applies to SAHMs.

Of course, I was only referring to situations where there's no need for mum to be away from the baby for an extended period of time. There seems to be an assumption in our society that ALL babies need to learn how to take a bottle and that just isn't the case.

[Rhannie]

Originally Posted by wannabe

Can you point me to a discussion of where judicious intro of a bottle in the recommended way causes more problems than having no way to feed a baby when the mother's at work? Otherwise why do they reccomend it?

Just because a baby doesn't take a bottle, doesn't mean there is no way to feed them when the mother is absent. Cup and spoon feeding are very viable ways of feeding infants at any age--my DD had her first drink (BM) from a cup at 3 days old. We didn't need to use a cup often (maybe 4 times before she was 6 months old and after that she would play with the cup at the dinner table), but she never had anything resembling a bottle either.

[wannabe]

Originally Posted by hanno

Can I have some sources on that?
I'm going to have to disagree with your expertise here, wannabe.
I'm talking less than an ounce. Gripe water has water, herbal tea has water, medecines have water and even breastmilk has water!

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/so...aby-water.html
http://parenting.ivillage.com/newbor...,,441n,00.html

I think you'll find that breastmilk has stuff other than water in it, too.

Just because a baby doesn't take a bottle, doesn't mean there is no way to feed them when the mother is absent. Cup and spoon feeding are very viable ways of feeding infants at any age

I wouldn't call spoon feeding BM to a five month old very viable. Doable, but not viable.

DD got 3 bottles of EBM when she was kidnapped to the NICU...we never did get her on the breast successfully. Having to end up exclusively pumping for 4 months until we at least got her on part time was a nightmare I wouldn't wish on anybody.

Sure, but where has anyone here or anyone who knows anything about breastfeeding ever said that giving a bottle to a baby under three weeks is anything but madness? I feel your pain, but please do some reading.

..which can be a risk to a nursing relationship.

-Angela

for an inattentive and unknowledgable parent, yes.

[hanno]

Originally Posted by wannabe

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/so...aby-water.html
http://parenting.ivillage.com/newbor...,,441n,00.html

Try reading your own links. The first one says that sips are fine and fun.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by wannabe

for an inattentive and unknowledgable parent, yes.

No, for any nursing pair. There are moms here who have done "just an occasional bottle" and had trouble.

Please don't insult them by calling them inattentive or "unknowledgeable." They are following advice from people like you who suggest as long as it's just occasional it won't cause any problems.

-Angela

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by wannabe

Originally Posted by wannabe
But Angela, we're not talking about risking a nursing relationship, we're talking about an occasional bottle.

..which can be a risk to a nursing relationship.

-Angela

for an inattentive and unknowledgable parent, yes.

I find your post really insulting.

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by macca

There seems to be an assumption in our society that ALL babies need to learn how to take a bottle and that just isn't the case.

conversely, there seems to be an assumption at MDC that babies won't need bottles, so don't bother introducing one. that's not the case, either.

i don't know how to multi-quote, but yeah, spoonfeeding a baby 6 ounces of EBM is not a viable option. frustrating for the baby, i bet, and NO daycare is gonna do that when they have other children who need to be cared for.

i am very glad DD takes a bottle. if she didn't, my life would be a whole lot harder.

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by readytobedone

conversely, there seems to be an assumption at MDC that babies won't need bottles, so don't bother introducing one. that's not the case, either.

i don't know how to multi-quote, but yeah, spoonfeeding a baby 6 ounces of EBM is not a viable option. frustrating for the baby, i bet, and NO daycare is gonna do that when they have other children who need to be cared for.

i am very glad DD takes a bottle. if she didn't, my life would be a whole lot harder.

I get what you are saying if a mom is unable to BF. But it has been said a few times in this thread already, we are not talking about a mom who has to leave their baby. When a mom and baby can be together, then no a baby does not need a bottle.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

I find your post really insulting.

ITA. Now I think there is or may be a connection between a less experienced mother and nipple confusion resulting from bottlefeeding. Is that fair to say? I am considering using bottles occasionally for my newborn (I may do part time school) and I do feel like it will be somewhat less of a risk because I am experienced and would know if an issue was developing. Not sure if this is wishful thinking though, and I think it is a serious overstatement to say that a parent is 'inattentive and inexperienced' if their child develops nipple confusion from switching btw. breast and bottle. I think bottles need to be used with caution by everyone.

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

I get what you are saying if a mom is unable to BF. But it has been said a few times in this thread already, we are not talking about a mom who has to leave their baby. When a mom and baby can be together, then no a baby does not need a bottle.

but that's just the thing...generally the condition "assuming the mom can be around her baby all the time (i.e. doesn't work)" isn't usually even stated in threads like this. it's just the default assumption that everyone SAH with her baby. and more women work than don't work (in the real world, not sure about this board)! so from the get-go, this idea that "not all babies need a bottle" excludes a huge portion of the population, whose babies for all intents and purposes, will HAVE to get bottles unless some caregiver is willing to spoonfeed them breastmilk every day for a year.

full-time working women almost always have to use bottles. and part-time working moms (like me) often do, too.

i'll even go one step further and say that, apart from the working or staying at home question, some women just want their babies to be able to take bottles so they can have the option of getting away for a couple hours. IMO a mom who wants to be able to go on a date with her partner, or to work out by herself for a few hours, sometime in the first YEAR of her child's life doesn't need to beat herself up over it on the very small chance that intro'ing a bottle at an appropriate age and stage is going to ruin her nursing relationship! sorry, but i think that's ridiculous!

[rmzbm]

Originally Posted by wannabe

for an inattentive and unknowledgable parent, yes.

WOW, you really are rich. Must be great to be you though. My oldest weaned at 4 mos. due to bottles...I was unknowledgable, yeah...but inattentive? Yeah, I call pumping nonstop while sobbing "What have I done to him" to qualify. I did what I could, and you're solution is that I should have been more "attentive?" Go away, seriously. :

[thismama]

I hear what you are saying, readytobedone, but I disagree with you that it's a 'very small chance' that the nursing relationship will be ruined. I think it's a pretty big chance, or at least a medium chance. Women working for pay has been one of the biggest factors that has provided a market for bottles and infant formula. Women working also contributes to the decline in numbers of mama/baby dyads who are able to sustain a nursing relationship. I just did a paper about this so I know what I am saying is accurate.

Yes women often have to work. Yes we need to use bottles if we do. And yes it is a risk, a real risk. We can mitigate the risk somewhat (or maybe a lot) by using bottles carefully and knowledgeably, but that doesn't take the risk away or make it 'very small' IMO.

[delphiniumpansy]

No offense, but I think there is a lack of positive bottlefeeding/nursing stories at MDC. So, I will share one.

My first dd was born 2 weeks early and my milk did not come in for several days. She was already very small and skinny and by day 2 she was frantic. Plus, the stupid OB gave me a pain pill that made dd sleepy. So, we took her to the ped as she was not nursing much, sleeping a lot, and seemed frantic when awake. He recommended supplementing with formula. He knew I wanted to nurse and he set it up so that nursing was not compromised but also so dd would get some food. I nursed her first, every 2 hours, and then dh gave her a bottle of formula. My milk came in about day 5 and from then on, she drank more and more milk and less and less formula. By the end of 2 weeks (more or less) she as drinking no formula and had gained weight and my boobs were full. We quit the bottles and never looked back. She nursed for 30 mos and never took a bottle again.


I have another friend who gave her ds a bottle of EBF a day starting when he was a few weeks old until he weaned to a cup. She wanted her dh to be able to feed the son. She also nursed him for 30 mos.

I have another friend who nursed her dd for 2 years. He husband starting giving their dd a bottle of formula at night when she was a few mos old. It did not affect their breastfeeding relationship at all.


It can affect the breastfeeding relationship to give a bottle or pacifier but it does not have to. Personally, I believe nipple confusion is very, very rare. Babies are smart. They know the difference between the soft, warm, real mama's nipple and the fake ones.

[delphiniumpansy]

Also, wanted to point out that plenty of working moms nurse for many months, even years, with the help of bottles. So again, bottles are not guaranteed to threaten the breastfeeding relationship and to say so is needlessly alarmist, I believe.