Birth Ended in C-Section and Client doesn't want to pay half.... - Page 2

[homewithtwinsmama]

[QUOTE=tlcdoula;10772741]

Originally Posted by DoulaAlicia

Unfortunately you gave her an out so this time I think you need to eat the cost.

TLC doula. Somehow you snipped this to attribute something to me that I did not write. Just wanted to clarify that.

[tlcdoula]

Sorry I just hit quote and I guess it quoted everything. I meant that for the original poster because that is what she said (sorry again).

[tlcdoula]

I have to admit that I think I might have an issue with my last client as well, but plan to pursue getting payment.

Here is what happened. I did her first birth as part of a hospital program that I work for. At the time the family paid $75 and the hospital paid $225 so we got a total of $300 for the birth. The mom's first birth I was with her for 2 hours before the baby came. When she got pregnant again she called the hospital and was informed that I do not work there anymore (resigned a year ago). She asked them for my information and when she called I informed her that my fee for services as a private doula are $600. At the time she asked for a discount and we talked and decided that we would cut the prenatals down since I worked with her before and therefore the fee would be $500. She paid 1/2 at the contract signing and then the second half was due at 38 weeks. I sent her a reminder about the second half being due just prior to 38 weeks - heard nothing (her last was born at 38 weeks). Sent another reminder at 38 weeks and then sent a 3rd reminder at 38 1/2 weeks. Then I got an e-mail telling me she can't afford to pay me the second half. We talked and she said she would send me 1/2 of the remaining balance and the second half in a week. I got the 1/2 a day before she went into labor and this one was faster. I was with her for 40 minutes before the baby came. I know when we first signed the contract she was concerned about this one being faster and I felt that what that meant was paying more for a faster birth, but this time she is getting a few prenatals and a postpartum in addition for me really only being paid $200 more (she didn't get all of my prenatals but still got some).

Her contractions started at 7 am and I am very, very clear with people that if they think they are in labor to call and give me a heads up. She called me at 8:30 am and said she thought she might be in labor and was getting ready to go to the hospital in a little bit. She got there at 9 am (lives blocks from the hospital) and I got there at 9:20 as my drive is further. She had the baby in her arms by 10 am.

Well, it is now a week later and no money in my hand. I can't say for sure if this will be an issue, but I am thinking it might especially since they found out that between the time they hired me and the time they birthed I decided to go back to the hospital program and work (I am not ready to give up doula work, but being pregnant am finding people not wanting to hire me - the hospital program they get me and that is that - plus I really missed the program and my co-workers!!!!) Unfortunately for them they didn't birth at the same hospital so even though I went back to work there they would not have been able to get me that cheap because they chose a closer hospital this time.

I have to call them on Monday and schedule their postpartum and I am hoping they just pay me without me asking especially since I gave up another client at my full rate because I was taking them and didn't want to stress myself out. If they don't pay me I plan on asking for the money, but based upon what they said in the hospital I am thinking they don't want to finish paying.

[pigpokey]

Originally Posted by DoulaAlicia

In the end I told her I didn't want her to come off with a negative experience from her doula and told her to pay if she saw fit but not to worry about it. And I don't believe I will see any more money.

So don't send her a further letter. Eat this one with some grace, as you already agreed to.

In the future, try to say "let me think about it and call you back," so you can gather your thoughts and not feel resentful. It would be understandable, I think, to say "I turned down clients for your due month to reserve your position. So I would appreciate being paid in full, but if I am able to get a last minute paying client for your due month, I will refund 50%."

[happyartmama]

This happened to me as well. Interviewed, was hired, received deposit, went to two prenatal meetings, then I received a call of "Hey guess what? We had the baby yesterday." Mom said she went for a prenatal OB visit, baby's heart rate was high, they sent her to hospital, then did a c-section, and there was "no time at all" to call you.

Except the more mom talked, the stranger her story got; she went home in between OB visit and hospital to pack some things, call family, etc. Then had to wait about 4 hours at hospital until OB arrived, re-checked baby, etc. and decided upon surgery.

I could tell by the tone of the phone call that it was assumed she wouldn't pay me anything else since I wasn't at the birth. I offered to come for breastfeeding support, then a postpartum, etc. All were refused and I finally brought up the subject of payment.

I explained that I only work with 2-3 clients/month, can not influence specific outcomes (i.e., precipitous birth or un-planned c-section) but that I potentially turn down other clients to work with this mom. In the end she agreed with that reasoning and sent me a check, but the whole situation felt weird. Always had from the beginning (really felt like mom was hiring a doula because it felt "in vogue" to do so (?!?!) rather than because they actually wanted to the support.


Lesson learned? Trust my gut about clients from the get-go, and make sure my contract is exceedingly clear!

[DoulaAlicia]

Originally Posted by happyartmama

This happened to me as well. Interviewed, was hired, received deposit, went to two prenatal meetings, then I received a call of "Hey guess what? We had the baby yesterday." Mom said she went for a prenatal OB visit, baby's heart rate was high, they sent her to hospital, then did a c-section, and there was "no time at all" to call you.

Except the more mom talked, the stranger her story got; she went home in between OB visit and hospital to pack some things, call family, etc. Then had to wait about 4 hours at hospital until OB arrived, re-checked baby, etc. and decided upon surgery.

I could tell by the tone of the phone call that it was assumed she wouldn't pay me anything else since I wasn't at the birth. I offered to come for breastfeeding support, then a postpartum, etc. All were refused and I finally brought up the subject of payment.

I explained that I only work with 2-3 clients/month, can not influence specific outcomes (i.e., precipitous birth or un-planned c-section) but that I potentially turn down other clients to work with this mom. In the end she agreed with that reasoning and sent me a check, but the whole situation felt weird. Always had from the beginning (really felt like mom was hiring a doula because it felt "in vogue" to do so (?!?!) rather than because they actually wanted to the support.


Lesson learned? Trust my gut about clients from the get-go, and make sure my contract is exceedingly clear!

I know what you mean about GUT feelings. I kept telling my husband that this family hired a doula but didn't really know why that much. I mean they wanted labor without drugs if possible but weren't that adamant about it. And that was it. I think if people don't respect or at least understand the full scope of who the doula is they tend more not to call if things go fast. They just don't respect how much we really care about their birth outcome and their experience and it is because they don't really care that much about their own experience. They haven't done the research and are not affected too negatively by intervention. So, what if the doula wasn't there? Well, it may be a shame but not horrible. Other serious natural birthing Moms that have done their research give more respect to the doula in my opinion. A doula isn't an accessory you take to the hospital with you. She is a guide, a birth professional, a loving woman, a nurturer, a confidant, a calming presence....and a lot more.

[firefly mama]

This has been a very interesting discussion. I'm surprised at how many of you require full payment prior to the birth. No one does that around here, though I wish we did. My contract asks for $100 at signing, 1/2 of the remainder at 38 weeks, and the final 1/2 of the remainder by 3 weeks pp. Most of the other doulas in my area just ask for a deposit ($75-100) at signing and then the rest of the fee at the pp visit. I don't know anyone that has been stiffed before, but your stories make me anxious.

Once I did have a client who I met for the initial consultation, got my deposit from her (hadn't signed a contract yet), and then was preparing to schedule our first prenatal meeting when she had the baby at 29 weeks. They called and I was able to be there for about 4 hours before baby come. I offered to reduce my fees because we had no prenatal visits. They said they would pay me full price, but agreed to my reduced fee since I offered. I visited them twice more in the NICU too, and once at home. I'm glad I did the reduced fee though. These clients have ended up being super cheerleaders for me and have gotten me several more clients.

I'm gonna ponder this whole fee schedule thing a bit more.

[sacredma]

this has been a very informative discussion. we get a deposit upfront( 1/3), this basically covers the prenatal and being on call, etc.
we require the full payment at 36 weeks. i would really not like to have to deal with getting a payment at the birth or after at the postpartum visit. I hold the check until after the birth, just in case......
we do not offer refunds, if they dont call.
this happened to my doula partner, so we learned our lesson. she happened to be at a birth ( a scheduled c) and called her client, who was due around the same time and her husband said that she was in labor and going to the hospital. (note, he did not call her) when she got there, my doula partner went to the room to check in on her and proceeded to offer labor support. the mom was very insulting to her and made nasty comment about her to her friend, who was there, her husband just stood there, not saying a word.......after much back and forth my partner went to get something from the cafeteria and when she came back they asked her to leave. she had already gotten payment, as this was a gift from the woman's sister, as she was concerned about her and her mental state........ after the birth, she did not want her to come for a postpartum visit and actually demanded all the money back, including the deposit. my doula partner told her that she had fulfilled her end of the contract and she could not have her money back. she also contacted her sister and explained the situation and she was very understanding.... but it was an awful situation and made my doula partner question her abilities....

on another note, i noticed that you said you do 3 prenatals.....why do you do so many? just curious.

[Veritaserum]

I do (did since I'm not currently attending births) about 1/3 as a deposit and the remainder due by 36 weeks. That deposit is non-refundable because I would only take so many clients per month and may turn away others. In my contract I say that I will refund if I miss the birth due to my error (like I take 3 hours to get there) and don't send a back-up. I specify no refunds if the birth is simply fast or they don't call me or they call me long after they knew things were happening. I also specify how much time it will take me (usually 1 hour from the time they call, in case it's daytime and I have to take the kids to a sitter) so they should call me early to let me know that things are starting to happen and they'll want me to come some time in the next few hours.

I'm sorry you got burned. It really stinks. Being on call is rather horrid and I don't think people appreciate the stress that comes with it!

[MommyMidwife]

This happened to me once as a doula

and once as a midwife and now I go over that contract word for word...then i have both mom and dad sign. if they don't pay up, i turn it over the attorney.
they are paying for your time, your expertise, your emotional support, they are paying to take you away from your home and family.
YOU ARE WORTH IT!
jeni

[turtlewomyn]

Well, I am sort of speaking from the other side as a someone who had a doula and had a c-section.
I had already paid her in full by 36 weeks or so (I don't remember what was in the contract, but we had the money and I wanted to clear it up).
I was told by my midwife (CNM within a doctors practice, I think she was just following protocol) over the phone that I had grown my baby too big and I needed a c-section and they would be calling me back to arrange it. I called up my doula in tears. She did send me some info on ACOG guidelines about fetal macrosomia. I went to an appointment with one of hte doctors to find out why I needed a c=section. I wish I would have asked my doula to go with me (I think now that is outside certain doula's scope of work). I got talked into a scheduled c-section. We scheduled it for monday, and I hoped that the baby would come out over the weekend (I was supposedly past due). My doula kept in touch, but did not attend the c-section. I don't remember if I told her not to bother, but I certainly didn't ask her to be there, I didn't think that was within the scope of a doula. It would have been nice to have her there. She could have held my hand when DH left with the baby.
On her own she partially refunded my money. I did not ask her, that was not my main concern at all.
She never did any post natal visits (I think she was flaking on those at the time, I know she flaked on a friend of mine who had her baby the same weekend, we used same midwife, doula, and hypnobirthing class, that's how we became friends). I went to visit her a few months after DD was born.

I think your client is being unreasonable to not pay you, you definitely tried to be there.

What was written in your contract???

[tlcdoula]

Originally Posted by turtlewomyn

Well, I am sort of speaking from the other side as a someone who had a doula and had a c-section.
I had already paid her in full by 36 weeks or so (I don't remember what was in the contract, but we had the money and I wanted to clear it up).
I was told by my midwife (CNM within a doctors practice, I think she was just following protocol) over the phone that I had grown my baby too big and I needed a c-section and they would be calling me back to arrange it. I called up my doula in tears. She did send me some info on ACOG guidelines about fetal macrosomia. I went to an appointment with one of hte doctors to find out why I needed a c=section. I wish I would have asked my doula to go with me (I think now that is outside certain doula's scope of work). I got talked into a scheduled c-section. We scheduled it for monday, and I hoped that the baby would come out over the weekend (I was supposedly past due). My doula kept in touch, but did not attend the c-section. I don't remember if I told her not to bother, but I certainly didn't ask her to be there, I didn't think that was within the scope of a doula. It would have been nice to have her there. She could have held my hand when DH left with the baby.
On her own she partially refunded my money. I did not ask her, that was not my main concern at all.
She never did any post natal visits (I think she was flaking on those at the time, I know she flaked on a friend of mine who had her baby the same weekend, we used same midwife, doula, and hypnobirthing class, that's how we became friends). I went to visit her a few months after DD was born.

I think your client is being unreasonable to not pay you, you definitely tried to be there.

What was written in your contract???

Wow, I am so sorry that your doula wasn't there for you. I hate to say it, but it sounds like she wasn't doing her job!! If I have a family that is having a cesarean I will be there - if I cannot come into the surgical suite then I am waiting in the room or recovery room for her (depending on which room she is coming back to) and I assist in that area and then I do postpartum visit(s).

If your doula flaked on another mother that weekend I wonder if she had something going on and wonder why she didn't send a back up.

[jenmidwife2b]

I haven't read all of the responses, so forgive me if I repeat something. But, no I would not allow a client to only pay half when they had a c-section birth. My contract makes it clear that I expect payment by 37 weeks and that the only reason for refunds is if I don't make the birth through a fault of my own. I go over my contract with clients at the time that they hire me, and often at the initial interview, if they ask. If they don't pay me, I don't go to their birth unless they have worked something alternatively out with me beforehand.

[1972momma]

I haven't read all the responses here, so apologies if I'm duplicating.

I've used a doula once, and am now a newish one myself, and for myself and my clients have always had a contract that stated what the payment arrangement would be in the event of a cesarean delivery.

Generally, if the woman does not call because she "changed her mind," full payment would still be owed. However, I think we can all agree that support after a cesarean isn't usually to the extent that it would be during a natural labor and birth, so many doulas I know offer a certain number of hours (usually 8) of postpartum support in lieu of labor support. I.e., the mom can choose what you did for her or postpartum support.

I do think it's a problem that this was not in your contract. Because of that, your best option now might be to let it go and make a plan to ensure that that particular thing is never unclear to a client again.

Good luck!

[jenmidwife2b]

Originally Posted by 1972momma

However, I think we can all agree that support after a cesarean isn't usually to the extent that it would be during a natural labor and birth, so many doulas I know offer a certain number of hours (usually 8) of postpartum support in lieu of labor support. I.e., the mom can choose what you did for her or postpartum support.

I actually wholeheartedly disagree. I put way more effort and time into my c-section moms than my natural birth mamas. Much more postpartum follow up and usually much more to deal with postpartum than my natural birth moms. Those births are harder on the moms and on me.