White Privilege

[*Erin*]

I hope this can be a good starting place. I hope we can all learn. I do not profess to be the oracle of feminism or white privilege. I hope good things will come of this thread. i hope it doesnt vanish or get pruned. edited to say:it did get pruned. for copyright infringement. which i never realized was an issue here. i know now. please read the linked articles as they are critical to understanding what im talking about. and feel free to report any other copyright violations you see around the boards.or ignored.

(the following quote sums up quite nicely my the beginning of my response to the questioning fo my charges of racism in the "illegals" thread.)

My White Problem (and yours) by Kendall Jackson

"Charges of racism, so the habituated response goes, are so stigmatizing that making them effectively forecloses all possibility of rational discourse. The risk, opponents claim implicitly, of mismarking racism far outweighs the gains of marking it properly. That's exactly backwards. The costs of racism's perpetuation far outweigh the prices of mismarking it. The implied claim, that most markings of racism are either mistaken or insincere, is a claim which must itself be validated, if it can be, by those who make it. I happily accept the burden to validate my claims to mark racism."

ok some big statements that will likely cause an uproar:

you cannot, i repeat, cannot be an active feminist without being anti-racist. feminism is not for white womyn. it is for all womyn. and WOC have a double whammy, being of color and female. we cannot call ourselves feminists and ignore their dual struggles.

everyone who is white benefits from institutionalized racism.
it is not up to POC to find a place for themselves in a white patriarchial world.

just like it is impossible for womyns equality in the white patriarchy.

the best either party can hope for is to be just like white domineering males.

unpack the backpack

as a white person, i can be assured of the following things:

(below quoted from Peggy McIntosh's essay, Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack PLEASE READ HERE-- essay


this whole concept, white privilege, really disturbed and shocked me at first. that was my white horror and indignation. surely i, leftist radical that i am, am not benefiting from, gasp, racism.

"White people want to and do claim that racism is (only the) overt expression of racial bigotry or prejudice, and that such overt expression is socially impermissible."


"One tactic of oppression is the implicit denial of oppression by making its infrastructure as invisible as possible. The longer race or gender oppression can be plausibly denied or shielded or masked, the better for the oppressers. Not only is it beneficial to deny the facts of oppression, it's beneficial to deny their intended results, the privileges such oppression confers, and the mechanisms by which such oppression is created, maintained, extended. The denial of White privilege, like the denial of racism itself, serves the interests of those who enjoy it"

My White Problem (and yours) by Kendall Jackson


it is very difficult for us to wake up to the massive scale of institutionalized racism that gives plenty of lip service to anti racism, but rarely does anything to actually help or enlighten.


Whiteness is ownership of the earth. -- W.E.B. Du Bois

just a few links for further reading, will add more along and along. (please lmk if any do not work properly):




Colors Of Resistance Links List

White Privilege

Inequality in the US *very interested, statistics*

Southern Poverty Law Center's Further Reading List

Y

The Global Privileges of Whiteness



Let's talk.


(edited to add: )Yomamasays. Excellent links list

[SpiralWoman]

hi there little mama~
I didn't get a chance to read all the links, but wanted to give your thread a reply, I'm sure it won't be ignored

everyone who is white benefits from institutionalized racism.

I really agree with this statement, although I think I want to put it in the context of classism as well. In fact, I think that racism exists within a larger system of class discrimination. Here in US, being anything but white is cultural shorthand for being lower class, economically disempowered. The thing about being white, is that as a white person, I can *pass* as a "person of power" in my society in a way that POC cannot. All I have to do is look the part (lose enough weight, have the right clothes, etc) & no one will know that I am poor & powerless. That is part of my white privilege.

I never got to read the other thread in full, glad you posted about this seperately.
blessings, maria

[JessicaS]

White Privilege

Hey, littlemama23, glad to see you back.

[Marlena]

you cannot, i repeat, cannot be an active feminist without being anti-racist. feminism is not for white womyn. it is for all womyn. and WOC have a double whammy, being of color and female. we cannot call ourselves feminists and ignore their dual struggles.

everyone who is white benefits from institutionalized racism.
it is not up to POC to find a place for themselves in a white patriarchial world.

There's a problem with a conjunction of two of the statements here: "one must be anti-racist in order to be an active feminist," and "it is not up to POC to find a place for themselves in a white patriarchal world."

Here's the problem: I, as a white woman and a feminist, can do my best to support anti-racist causes and women of color. However - and inevitably - my support will be limited, and will in fact be called "limited" by many WOC, because I am not a WOC myself. I can't stand in their place and see things from their perspective, genuinely, no matter how hard I might try, because I've not shared their experience of growing up and living in this society as a WOC. (One might disagree that one needs to be able to stand directly in a person's shoes in order to be able to say anything meaningful about their experience, but that's another matter.)

At the same time, stating that "it's not up to POC to find a place for themselves in a white patriarchal world" means that us white patriarchs (and white feminists) need to change in order ot make room from the POCs. Fair enough. But how are we to do that if we're allegedly groping in the dark to figure out how to change, seeing as we (at least according to proponents of standpoint epistemologies) don't know and can never genuinely understand what the experience of WOC is (and, incidentally, many folks would take umbrage at grouping all women and/or people of color together). Well, the POC can tell us how they want us to change (again, presuming they can speak as a monolithic mass - not true, of course). But that often ends up presuming that we white folks shouldn't have any say in that change, as we've already had the lion's share of the say re most aspects of how our society is constructed. Imposing change from the other direction is not necessarily much better than that which it's supposed to replace. But how is there to be a dialogue, a give-and-take, between groups that have such disproportionate shares of power?

And so it goes. This isn't to say, "so let's just throw up our hands and forget about it," but rather to raise some issues concerning how we conceptualize the problem.

[SpiralWoman]

hi NM~
yes, if someone said we were all inately racist & couldn't change, that would be racist.

We are "born" that way and can't help it, thus leading to a defect on our part.

That is, indeed, nonsense.

But I didn't get that from the article. In fact, the article says the oposite: that it is possible to be antiracist! What the article & the OP did say is that *all* whites enjoy "white privilege."

Here is how it works: If there is oppression against a group in your world, and you are *not* in that group (ie: white instead of black) you are pretty lucky: you are privileged that you will *never* experience *that* particular oppression. "Lumping" together all us lucky white people & saying we all get this "privilege" is not sterotyping us. White privilege isn't an action taken by any individual, it just is.

I think this may be where your idea:

whether they know it or not.

comes in. Even if a white person grows up without ever being taught about slavery or Jim Crow laws or any of our country's history of oppressing black people & they are taught not to react to different shades of skin color any more than they react to hair color, that white person will still benefit from the racism that is active in our society.

HTH
blessings, Maria

[SarahGuinn]

littlemama, it's BFB

You are brave but we've had this conversation here. It's a brick wall because many aren't open to the brief glimmer of seeing this fault in themselves. And won't be.

I did like SpiralWoman's post though.

Again, more power to you but I'm not touching it here.

You have my support though.

[MirandaW]

I am very intrigued by this topic. I want to say I *do* want to join in the discussion, but I have to run. I will post more once I've had a chance to organize my thoughts a bit more and give you a clearer sense of why I even believe I have the right to participate.

[Greaseball]

I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals,the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.

I think this is the one I take advantage of most often...I know that I can be caught doing something really stupid, or even downright mean, and no one will say "Yep, another one of those white Europeans who doesn't have any respect for anyone!" or "If those white people want others to like them and consider them equal, why don't they stop doing those things they always do?"

[*Erin*]

Originally posted by SarahGuinn
littlemama, it's BFB

You are brave but we've had this conversation here. It's a brick wall because many aren't open to the brief glimmer of seeing this fault in themselves. And won't be.

I did like SpiralWoman's post though.

Again, more power to you but I'm not touching it here.

You have my support though.

hey good lookin

yes, i thought it had prob. come up, and i figured it'd be brickwalled.

thank you.

[*Erin*]

also, i will not be able to participate in this thread for several days, i have terrible mastitis, and am not much in the way of intellegent conversation right now.

thanks mamas.

SpiralWoman-i liked your post as well.

[*Erin*]

i feel better. still have a plugged duct, but feeling better. only now its 3am and im feeling sort of tired...

i have to say, im shocked. TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY VIEWS and TEN posts....


NM, it would indeed be nonsense to say one is born racist. noone said that. what was said was that you are born INTO a RACIST SOCIETY with INSTITUTIALIZED WHITE PRIVILEGE.

MirandaW, i look forward to hearing what youre thinking.

Me too, greaseball. the bandaid thing gets me too.

has anyone considered makeup to be a privilege? it most definitely is. it has only been in the last several years that womyn of color could buy foundation/powder to match their skin tone. and im talking about buying it like a white person can buy it. in walmart, or walgreens, or belks...no special ordering needed.

marlena ---"But how is there to be a dialogue, a give-and-take, between groups that have such disproportionate shares of power?" i could write about this at such length, and i will, but i need to go to bed. briefly, i think its about starting small. bell hooks speaks of "eating black culture" .live with poc. talk to people of color in your day-to-day life. challenge your ingrained perceptions of white and black every time you see someone of color. watch tv and notice the ratio of poc to white, and how poc are represented. write emails and letters to businesses who dont show poc in thier commercials, or who portray poc unfavorably. small acts of kindness, cooperation, recongnition of humanity. small talk. we can't just say "hey oppressed folks. we're real sorry and feeling kinda guilty about the way the whole world has been set up by us and our forebearers to screw you over...lets chit chat and see can't we fix it." it doesnt work like that. poc are sick and tired of trying to tell us white people what we need to learn. white people need to educate. learn about black culture. on our own time. discourse starts with dialogue. and if you dont ever talk to poc, there's no potential for dialogue....

[Marlena]

marlena ---"But how is there to be a dialogue, a give-and-take, between groups that have such disproportionate shares of power?" i could write about this at such length, and i will, but i need to go to bed. briefly, i think its about starting small. bell hooks speaks of "eating black culture" .live with poc. talk to people of color in your day-to-day life. challenge your ingrained perceptions of white and black every time you see someone of color. watch tv and notice the ratio of poc to white, and how poc are represented. write emails and letters to businesses who dont show poc in thier commercials, or who portray poc unfavorably. small acts of kindness, cooperation, recongnition of humanity. small talk. we can't just say "hey oppressed folks. we're real sorry and feeling kinda guilty about the way the whole world has been set up by us and our forebearers to screw you over...lets chit chat and see can't we fix it." it doesnt work like that. poc are sick and tired of trying to tell us white people what we need to learn. white people need to educate. learn about black culture. on our own time. discourse starts with dialogue. and if you dont ever talk to poc, there's no potential for dialogue....

Littlemama, I'm aware of that. However, I was merely pointing out one meandering direction these sorts of analyses VERY frequently take when you follow them through for any length of time. I've done graduate studies in feminist philosophy, in addition to having plain old-fashioned experience, so I've not just fallen off the turnip truck.

[PM]

ITA with the white privilege concept; I definitely benefit from an embarassing number of privileges as a white westerner in this country.

Perhaps some people would understand the concept better if they were to substitute the word privilege with the word advantage?

If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

This is the one I have a problem with. We all pretty much live in housing we can afford, no? Whether we live in a shanty for 50 bucks/week or a 3 million $ home, it's what we can afford, no?
And, personally, I have never been able to live in the area I've desired I've always desired ethnically diverse neighborhoods, but in Paris, for example, you just can't choose. What ends up happening is that the African or Sri Lankan family ends up cramming 10 people into an apartment in which the white family lodges only 4. That's the difference. I'm just not comfortable with the wording of that particular phrase.

To offer a more global perspective to this thread (since people often insist on using the term "white people" as if there were "white people" only in the United States of America), Central Asia, specifically Kyrgyzstan, offers an interesting perspective on "white privilege." White people settled in Central Asia in the 19th century. I won't go into the specifics of why they came. Following the break-up of the Soviet Union, almost all of the white Slavs returned to their homes in Russia, Ukraine, Germany, Hungary etc. I did a tour of Uzbekistan, for example, and I saw fewer than five Slavic faces in three weeks. There, and in the other southern republics (Turkmenistan, Tadjikistan), the Slavs were "encouraged" (often harassed) to leave, which they did.

Here in Kyrgyzstan, over half of the Slav population returned to Russia. The Russians are now the largest minority at 12-15% of the total population. Talk to any Russian here and he/she will tell you that he/she is discriminated against - can't get the jobs, not represented in the government, can't speak the official language, etc. The old ladies begging on the streets are not the Kyrgyz - they are the ethnic Russians.

Kyrgyz was declared the official language. The president is required to take a Kyrgyz language test (there are questions about cheating). Kyrgyz should also become the official language of business by 2004, I believe (already moved up from 2002). Of course, this is a huge disadvantage for the remaining Slavs. The thing is, the Slavs are the brains of the country (technology, engineering, etc.). So the deadline keeps getting moved up, a white privilege is to continue to speak Russian every day (though few of the capital's Kyrgyz citizens can operate in it either).

At the same time, however, Kyrgyzstan continues to rely on Russia and China for its goods. So the Kyrgyz continue to see white plastic baby dolls; Russian fashion magazines, TV shows and rock music stars; Hollywood movies, etc.

There are very few wealthy Slavs. The Kyrgyz middle class is made up of Kyrgyz. The wealthy include relatives of the president (Kyrgyz), government officials, Turkish businessmen, and, of course, expats like us.

The country is celebrating its 2200th year of statehood (not sure where good ol' Askar Akaev came up with that one) and the Slavs came onto the scene only around 1860. There is little left in Kyrgyz schoolbooks about the brief Soviet occupation.

I know this doesn't have a whole lot to do with your thread, but I just needed to add some more global perspective to it. I can't really think of other countries where the white population has been so "cancelled out" for lack of a better term at the moment.

[3boys4us]

I not so sure about this - I think it is attempt to replace the problems of globalism and the first world benefiting from the problems in the third with race. The other points - about the IRS auditing a white person or pulling them over etc... Or the privilege of being a white male etc.. seem to be pretty generic.

I am a POC and obviously a woman but this essay offends me more then it defines me. What about working your way past these things? What I see from this is that we are victims with no way of helping ourselves. As if we are passive, helpless in the face of white patriarchy.

I don't buy it - yeah - I have been in awkward situations where race is a factor and I think think that everytime I go drop my minivan off to be serviced, the guy talks to my dh but actually the majority of my life is not devoted to being victimized.

edited to add that I am strictly talking about the US and not a foreign nation as PM pointed out in her post. I have been to foreign countries where simply being American was a benefit and I have seen dh -white anglo-saxon male that he is - benefit in ways abroad that I couldn't being S. Indian.

[barbara]

I agree that this is a topic that needs discussion and I belive there are misunderstandings and prejudgeous on both ends of the argument!

Of your original set of statements, I would agree with most but must take acception to these two:

If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

At least im my little corner of the world this just ain't true, unless you are assuming that a person with white skin also has wealth! Perhaps that is a misconception.

I know that I can be caught doing something really stupid, or even downright mean, and no one will say "Yep, another one of those white Europeans who doesn't have any respect for anyone!"

Greaseball,(not making any comments about you personally... you know I love you mama! ) but around here we have a name for fair skined people who act "trashy!"

3boys4us I thank you for making the following statment, as I feel this intutitively, bus as I am not a POV but a privilaged pale person, I can not speak from a place of experience or real knowledge on this.

I am a POC and obviously a woman but this essay offends me more then it defines me. What about working your way past these things? What I see from this is that we are victims with no way of helping ourselves. As if we are passive, helpless in the face of white patriarchy.

I guess I'm just an idealist and want to see us all get along and finding our common threads instead of pointing fingers and finding fault with oneanother.

[barbara]

I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.

Perhaps so, but in any job situation I may be suspect of getting the job because of my race, or gender, or the college I went to, or the way I dress....

Please, there are prejudgeous of all sorts and these statement you have made can be attributed to all types of people. As I tell my children, life is not always fair, but we do the best we can with the situations we are faced with.

[*Erin*]

"littlemama, You said in another thread that We are all racist (by nature) and its in our nature to be racist. I'd copy the quote here but I think its against the rules to do that."


apples and oranges. the point i was getting to there was the same arguement im making here. by all-i mean all "firstworld"white people, that when you are born into a place of privilege, you grow up with that privilege imbued into your nature, how you approach things, how you go about day to day life. (thank you for the feel better wishes )



"I not so sure about this - I think it is attempt to replace the problems of globalism and the first world benefiting from the problems in the third with race. The other points - about the IRS auditing a white person or pulling them over etc... Or the privilege of being a white male etc.. seem to be pretty generic.

I am a POC and obviously a woman but this essay offends me more then it defines me. What about working your way past these things? What I see from this is that we are victims with no way of helping ourselves. As if we are passive, helpless in the face of white patriarchy.

I don't buy it - yeah - I have been in awkward situations where race is a factor and I think think that everytime I go drop my minivan off to be serviced, the guy talks to my dh but actually the majority of my life is not devoted to being victimized.

edited to add that I am strictly talking about the US and not a foreign nation as PM pointed out in her post. I have been to foreign countries where simply being American was a benefit and I have seen dh -white anglo-saxon male that he is - benefit in ways abroad that I couldn't being S. Indian. "

im sorry you feel generalized or disempowered by this. this article is not supposed to define you. it is merely trying to define something that is in place in our world that works against you. i hope the intent is to indeed move past the whole issue of race. but. to become aware that it exists, we have to talk about it. and your experience as a finacially comfortable w. indian, married to a white man is going to be a whole lot more pleasent than, say, a single black mama recieving welfare. not at all discrediting your experiences, i validate you and your feelings totally.

if you look at the statistics, there are more young black men in jail than in college. something is wrong with that. one has to assume that either the education system is flawed, or young black men are flawed. its asisnine to say that young black men have the same advantages as a young white man. there needs to be some evening of the playing field, starting with the acknowledgement that not everyone wants to/should/can play the patriarchy game, and that it needs to change.

it has been less than 50 years since black america was endowed the same legal rights as white america.

how on earth can a culture who was/is systemically oppressed
find some equanimity in that amount of time?

as for globalization, no, i think this is an entirely seperate issue. globalization is a whole 'nother can of worms.

you are not passive and helpless in the face of the patriarchy anymore than i am. you are a strong womyn, aware of your own gifts and talents, and intellect. i would never say that poc were passive and helpless. im not suggesting anything of the sort. i AM suggesting that with such a history of enforced servitude and horrible abuses doled out upon them by white people, that POC deserve acknowledgement of the way they have been treated, and are treated in our current sysytem.

that the current system is tragically flawed and screwed up and gererally admits white men, and of late, white womyn into the halls of power.

look up the numbers of the following, who can say POC(and womyn, and esp WOC) are fairly represented:
presidents-white men
heads of state-white men
doctors and lawyers-white men, though we are seeing an equillibruim with womyn

landowners-white men
railroad/airline/transit owners-white men

the holders of assets and power and white guys.

parismaman, interesting spin on the idea.

"Littlemama, I'm aware of that. However, I was merely pointing out one meandering direction these sorts of analyses VERY frequently take when you follow them through for any length of time. I've done graduate studies in feminist philosophy, in addition to having plain old-fashioned experience, so I've not just fallen off the turnip truck."

i do not think meandering is bad as long as in the dissection, the larger picture is preserved. i didnt think youd fallen off the turnip truck.

[*Erin*]

Originally posted by barbara
Perhaps so, but in any job situation I may be suspect of getting the job because of my race, or gender, or the college I went to, or the way I dress....

Please, there are prejudgeous of all sorts and these statement you have made can be attributed to all types of people. As I tell my children, life is not always fair, but we do the best we can with the situations we are faced with.

if you had read anything i have posted, you would not be saying this. i have quantified what ive said in above posts, and you can read the links i posted for further clarification that yes, white privilege DOES in fact exist, and that if youre not part of the solution (which begins with acknowlegement and discussion and reading) then you part of the problem.

[barbara]

Erin if you don't believe there is prejudgeous outside of race then just check out the young mama's thread over in Finding your Tribe. These mamas are certianlly experiencing some persecution equal to what you my be experiencing, but that is JMHO.

it has been less than 50 years since black america was endowed the same legal rights as white america.

Granted, but it has been 50 years and I'll bet you aren't 50 years old. The world IS changing so please let's not keep putting up the barriers that our ancestors had to fight so hard to abolish!!

More hatred and raceism will not make the world a better place, only love will solve these issues. Again, JMHO

[3boys4us]

littlemama23 - are you discussing the US or the world in general with this topic?

IMO what applies to the US and perhaps in Europe as well does not necessarily apply to other nations. It is in the colored third world where you see women in power (esp. polictically) - even Islamic (but not Shari'a ones) nations have had more women as heads of states then the US.

There is difference between being victimized and being the victim. POC may have just had real power endowed to them in the last 50 years but that doesn't mean that they are all poor and poorly educated and welfare mamas. There are those of us who are in the middle class and are raising educated children. I agree there are too many young black men in jail - IMO this is War on Drugs (I digress but all this country ever seems to do is go to war). There are too many poorly run school systems in mostly urban areas.

But there is a POC middle class and they count and are growing. Your essay does not acknowledge those who have successfully made that leap.


What I agree with is how globalization uses poor (and yes most POC) nations to make its wealth off of.

I agree that in some cases color is the reason you get pulled over.

But I disagree that the system is "tragically flawed". There is need for some adjustment but the system works and we (POC) need to make it work for us and show when it has been successful.