Breastfed 12-month-old & our ED - results aren't consistent

[Astromom]

I'm on day 19 of an elimination diet for both me and my 12-mo-old DS. I started out with just turkey, salt, zucchini, sweet potato, rice, and pears. I was losing too much weight on that diet (I'm under the ideal weight for my height as it is) so I added in grapeseed oil, honey, and gluten-free & wheat-free grains. I originally had cooked carrots in there but I took them out because I think they were causing constipation in DS.

A little background - we think he's allergic/sensitive to bananas and dairy (based on green diarrhea and vomiting.) So we haven't eaten those since he was little. He also has had frequent night waking, gas, reflux, mucousy stools, and a little red rash right around his anus. These are all signs of food problems too but I am dense and didn't put 2 and 2 together until recently.

So almost 3 weeks ago we started the diet. I am so desperate for sleep. He wakes every hour to 2 hours every night, and sometimes he stays awake for hours in the middle of the night. On days 3, 8, 13, and 14 he slept for 4 hours straight at night. That's the first time he's done that since he was new. I was elated! The other nights though he's been his usual terrible sleeping self.

The fact that he slept decently for 4 nights makes me think that we are on the right track with this elimination diet, but why doesn't he sleep well consistently??? There's absolutely no correlation to what we've eaten that I can see. I've tracked everything in excel and it seems very random. I can't keep this diet up - I need to add more foods back in or I will lose my mind. Please help! Thank you!!

[kjbrown92]

If you want a second look, PM me, and then send me your spreadsheet, and I can see if there's any patterns. I have 2 kids (out of 3) with multiple food sensitivities. I have been looking at patterns for a couple of years (and at times it's driven me loopy). It sounds like you're on the right track.

Have you checked all supplements and everything for ingredients?

If it's still not helping, I'd swap out ingredients. So the first week swap out zucchini for another vegetable and see if that helped. If not, put it back in and swap out quinoa for rice. Etc. For instance, my DD can't do zucchini or pears. So even though they're considered the least allergenic, someone somewhere is sensitive to everything.

[Chinese Pistache]

The other thing to consider is that some kids just aren't good sleepers. Breastfed babies are especially prone to night-waking. My first two (neither has any allergies) didn't sleep through the night until 2 yrs old and my 2 1/2 yr old still wakes a few times to get in bed with us or get a drink of water (she's the one with allergies, but we've identified them all and eliminated them). It may be that your dc just needs a little more time to change her sleep patterns.

It does sound like you are on the right track as far as identifying problem foods. Does you ds have any other symptoms?

ETA: I'd personally be concerned about grapeseed oil as your fat source since seeds can be allergenic for some. Canola or olive might be a better choice for and ED.

[Astromom]

Thank you both for the replies. You two are awesome, you know that?

Kathy, I forgot to say that we also take a probiotic given to us by our naturopath and I take a multi that the person at Whole Foods recommended -- both bottles say they are hypoallergenic. I had remembered reading in another thread that your DD can't have pears or zucchini and that has been on my mind as we've gone through this. But where I'm getting confused I think is the fact that his sleep improved at all. So, for example, we eat pears every day. If they were a problem food, he wouldn't have had those 4 good nights of sleep would he? I'm so confused. Same thing about zucchini -- I made sure that I went 4 days between zucchini because I wanted to make sure it wasn't a problem food (sweet potatoes are our nearly daily food) -- it doesn't seem to matter. He had a "good" night during zucchini time, and he slept badly too. He's had good nights during sweet potato only time, bad nights during sweet potato only time.

Same with the grapeseed oil. He had both good and bad nights before we added grapeseed oil, and he had a "good" night after we started with grapeseed oil. Actually he had two good nights. (I chose grapeseed over olive because it has a higher smoke point so it's safer to cook with... however we exclusively used olive oil pre-ED.) But I canlook into Canola oil instead!

The only correlation I could figure out was that the days before bad nights had cooked carrots, while the days before good nights never had cooked carrots. Cooked carrots are gone now as of 6 days ago.. and he's had two good nights since then. But 4 bad ones too...

I forgot to say that the other symptoms do seem to be improving. No more little red rash. Stools not nearly as mucousy. Still gassy though. And the sleep thing is killing me.

I'm not even beginning to hope for him to sleep through the night. I just really loved the 4 hour straight thing that he did those 4 nights (he still woke up every hour-2 hours the rest of the night.) That is ok with me. That's doable. I understand that he needs to wake to nurse but I know he can go several hours during the day without nursing so it seems reasonable to expect him to go several hours at night without nursing too... at least one time per night!

But anyway, yes... it might just be a matter of time until DS can adjust his sleep. But how to I maintain the ED long enough to test that? I've already lost enough weight that I'm concerned about my supply...

[tanyalynn]

Could you have two sleep problems going on simultaneously? You may need to try a more traditional sleep aid in addition to eliminating problematic foods. I give my kids melatonin (1mg) each night and that's been important to us, but I don't know that it would've been helpful if we were still eating lots of our problematic foods. Of course, adding in a supplement adds another level of uncertainty to the situation, so that's an obvious downside.

We use this.

http://www.thorne.com/order_online.w...c-ce45b426c283

[kjbrown92]

Originally Posted by Astromom

Kathy, I forgot to say that we also take a probiotic given to us by our naturopath and I take a multi that the person at Whole Foods recommended -- both bottles say they are hypoallergenic. I had remembered reading in another thread that your DD can't have pears or zucchini and that has been on my mind as we've gone through this. But where I'm getting confused I think is the fact that his sleep improved at all. So, for example, we eat pears every day. If they were a problem food, he wouldn't have had those 4 good nights of sleep would he? I'm so confused. Same thing about zucchini -- I made sure that I went 4 days between zucchini because I wanted to make sure it wasn't a problem food (sweet potatoes are our nearly daily food) -- it doesn't seem to matter. He had a "good" night during zucchini time, and he slept badly too. He's had good nights during sweet potato only time, bad nights during sweet potato only time.

Just remember the delay with breastfeeding too - immediate (for some people) to 96 hours.

On the multivitamins, what are the ingredients? A lot of them have soybean oil in them and/or corn. In fact, I haven't been able to find a multivitamin for my DD!!

Also sleep improved some when I took out some foods, and then improved immensely when I took out all the foods. And my DD isn't a good sleeper. She just turned 3 (yesterday). She still wakes up 1-2 times a night but will go back to sleep without too much fuss, but on a night where she's eaten something bad, it's like 10 times a night, and crying and won't go right back to sleep. So there's not so great sleepers and horrible sleepers. If the rash and poops and stuff are better, then you're moving in the right direction, for sure.

I know how hard it is. Truly. And it takes great courage and perseverance, and I commend you for even trying the ED. There are a lot of moms who would just switch to a hypoallergenic formula and say, oh well. So really you do deserve applause. And your baby will thank you (by sleeping) at some point.

Other things:
Are you making bone broths with your turkey to get extra calcium and vitamins?
Are you making a turkey with skin and eating the roasted skin? Lots of good fat in there.
Turkey meatballs in broth is good (in case you're not doing that).
And the salt is sea salt right? So no cornstarch (in iodized salt)?
Have you tried swapping out quinoa for the rice? (there are some kids that are sensitive to rice, but because quinoa is less common, there are less allergies to it)
Is there a more obscure fruit that you haven't had a lot of that you could switch out with the pear? Not sure what kinds of fruits you ate before the ED but if you start having something you rarely had before, it's more likely that there isn't a reaction to it, KWIM?

Anyway, good luck!! I'm rooting for you!

Kathy

[Chinese Pistache]

Kathy, Vita Kids by Douglas Labs is corn, soy, dairy, and all the other allergens free. The one we use is flavored with lemon if your dd can do citrus.

[kjbrown92]

Nope, my dd can't have citrus. I still haven't found one for her. If it's not one of the regular allergens, it's a flavoring she can't have. I actually LIKE things with ARTIFICIAL flavors for her. Crazy, eh?

[Astromom]

Tanya, yes, we totally could have two (or more) issues going on w/r/t sleep. For example, I'm pretty sure he's allergic to the cats. There could be other things too... I'm so stressed all the time from work, and who knows how that affects him...

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

On the multivitamins, what are the ingredients? A lot of them have soybean oil in them and/or corn. In fact, I haven't been able to find a multivitamin for my DD!!

It's Super Nutrition Simply One Women (I don't have a vitamin for DS) .. the bottle says "contains no yeast, wheat, gluten, buckwheat, sugar, pollen, dairy, corn, or soy residues or any hidden additives". I hope that means it's a good one!

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

I know how hard it is. Truly. And it takes great courage and perseverance, and I commend you for even trying the ED. There are a lot of moms who would just switch to a hypoallergenic formula and say, oh well. So really you do deserve applause. And your baby will thank you (by sleeping) at some point.

You have no idea (actually, you probably do!) how much I needed to hear that!!!! Thank you so much. I'm at my wits' end... and the support here means the world to me.

Other things:
Are you making bone broths with your turkey to get extra calcium and vitamins?

No, I don't know how to do this!

Are you making a turkey with skin and eating the roasted skin? Lots of good fat in there.

Absolutely!

Turkey meatballs in broth is good (in case you're not doing that).

I will try it.

And the salt is sea salt right? So no cornstarch (in iodized salt)?

right!

Have you tried swapping out quinoa for the rice? (there are some kids that are sensitive to rice, but because quinoa is less common, there are less allergies to it)

I didn't swap out rice yet... I'm pretty dependent on the rice at this point (I have tons of bags of rice pasta and tons of rice milk containers and rice flour, etc) but I will try to transition over to quinoa.

Is there a more obscure fruit that you haven't had a lot of that you could switch out with the pear? Not sure what kinds of fruits you ate before the ED but if you start having something you rarely had before, it's more likely that there isn't a reaction to it, KWIM?

Yep, I know what you mean. But I was quite a fruit-monster in my pre-ED days. The only fruit I didn't eat were melons and citrus (because I don't like those!)

Thank you again...
sleep is still not improving but I'm not giving up yet... thanks to this thread... without it I think I would have succumbed to the siren song of eggplant parmesan and chocolate mousse...

[kjbrown92]

Bone broth -- go over to Nutrition, then go to Traditional Foods. They're big into bone broths. But I'll give you a quickie course. Take your roasted turkey, after you've taken your meat off it, and stick it in a pot. Of course if you aren't doing any of the vegetables (I use carrots and celery) I guess you can just put in 6-8 peppercorns, and cover carcass with water. I use my 12 qt. pot. Simmer for 6-8 hours. Then salt and pepper it. You'll get some good gelatin-izing (probably not a real word, but oh well), then you know that you're getting the good stuff out of the bones. It gives you some great vitamins and then you can make soup with your other ingredients - stick in some turkey meatballs and some diced zucchini or some rice pasta and any leftover meat. I saute some spinach and then put some broth over it. Yum.

I just didn't know if you could switch over to quinoa for a week and see if it made a difference for the rice.

Have you tried the sleeping tricks like putting one of your worn tshirts under the baby's head so that it smells like you? Or tilting the mattress up a little on the head end - in case there's some reflux in there? Nightlight? Music?

[caedmyn]

You might look into food chemical sensitivity--several of the things on your elimination diet are high in naturally occurring food chemicals (particularly the zucchini and the honey). www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.com

[Astromom]

Thankyou for the tip for broth-making Kathy..
and caedmyn thank you for the point about chemical sensitivities.. definitely something else to consider... those are fascinating websites and they are hitting close to home! I will be researching that further...

In the meantime, please help me with my logic and see if this thinking is flawed. Since starting the ED, he's finally improved his sleep enough to have these intermittent 'good' nights, right? Well, in the last week we had several mediocre nights in a row (up every 2 hours, which is at least better than being up every 1-2 hours with a long stretch of being awake and inconsolable) and then two nights ago, he finally had a night with a 4 hour stretch. So in conjuction with the improving skin and stool, it would seem logical that all the foods that we ate every day during the previous 4 days all must be "safe" foods. (That would be turkey, sweet potato, probiotics, pear, rice, and quinoa.) Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to have a good night, right? Does this sound right? We ate some other things in those days too, but not every day - so I can't include those in the safe list at this point. (And I can't necessarily say which of those are not "safe" foods at this point either.)

Someone please tell me if that's not correct thinking...

Thank you!

[caedmyn]

Were those the only foods you ate the previous four days? Keep in mind that it can take time for a reaction to clear, or start, so I don't know if four days is necessarily enough time to know for sure. If it is food chemical sensitivites, all of those foods other than the sweet potatoes are very low in food chemicals (assuming the turkey is reasonably fresh and hasn't sat in your fridge for days). If you're needing more foods, I'd try thickly peeled russet/brown potatoes and maple syrup, which are both very low food chemical and not common allergens, either.

[chlobo]

Is it possible to do an ED & a low chemical diet at the same time? Wicked fresh meat is very hard to come by.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by chlobo

Is it possible to do an ED & a low chemical diet at the same time? Wicked fresh meat is very hard to come by.

Yes, absolutely--if you look at the basic Failsafe diet at www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.com, and just do it without dairy, wheat, and eggs (not easy, but certainly not any more difficult than a TED, and I've done it), that will eliminate all your most common allergens and catch food chemical sensitivities, if there are any.

As far as the meat, your best bet is either frozen chickens (a local butcher shop should be able to tell you how old they are--less than a month is good), beef from a butcher shop that is sold right after it's butchered and hung (as opposed to grocery store meat this is vacuum packed for up to 3 months before sale), or lamb if you can find a place that sells fairly fresh lamb. (If you live in an area where there's a Meijer store, they get their lamb within 2-3 days of slaughter, according to the butcher I talked to.)

[kjbrown92]

Originally Posted by Astromom

In the meantime, please help me with my logic and see if this thinking is flawed. Since starting the ED, he's finally improved his sleep enough to have these intermittent 'good' nights, right? Well, in the last week we had several mediocre nights in a row (up every 2 hours, which is at least better than being up every 1-2 hours with a long stretch of being awake and inconsolable) and then two nights ago, he finally had a night with a 4 hour stretch. So in conjuction with the improving skin and stool, it would seem logical that all the foods that we ate every day during the previous 4 days all must be "safe" foods. (That would be turkey, sweet potato, probiotics, pear, rice, and quinoa.) Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to have a good night, right? Does this sound right? We ate some other things in those days too, but not every day - so I can't include those in the safe list at this point. (And I can't necessarily say which of those are not "safe" foods at this point either.)

Someone please tell me if that's not correct thinking...

I think your thinking sounds correct.
I wouldn't go the white potato route recommended by caedmyn just because it's a nightshade, which are highly allergenic. Can you keep on those few foods you mentioned for a few days, without adding other foods, and see what happens with sleep, stool, skin? Believe me, I know your frustration with sleep. It was the hardest thing for me too!

[Astromom]

Just wanted to pop in and say we are making progress here I think.

caedmyn, you are awesome for posting that info-- I suspect salicylates might be a problem. I think he's maybe moderately sensitive to them. We're working on that right now to see for sure.

It also looks like he is allergic (or intolerant) to corn.

Thank you all for your help! This is a difficult path to go down!