Need advice from active church-going mamas

[VisionaryMom]

DH and I are on the board of our church, and we're otherwise involved (playing for the children's choir, teaching SS, etc.) I'm really struggling right now with a feeling of control in the church. We're members of a denomination built on the idea that everyone in the congregation has a say. It's not like the denom in which I grew up where the pastor's word was law in the church.

Still there are a lot of power plays going on. They're silly things. Someone told me our son was too young for an activity. He was by about a month. Yet her child, who's a year too young, attends the same activities. DH is the technology chair on the board. The woman who runs the computer-based presentation on Sundays added him to the computer as a "limited user." (She doesn't realize he can work around that easily, but that's a different issue.)

It's just that the church's growth has been stagnant for a long time. We've only been there for about 18 months. We've found out gradually through casual conversation that the church has split several times in its short history (50 years). We're beginning to see why.

The problem is that 1) my son in particular really likes it there. He told me one of the kids was his "best friend." We wouldn't see this child if we didn't go to church there. DS is 3.

I want to like it there. I want to be involved. There are things I'd love to plan that DH and I have discussed - such as fun activities for young couples. But, I'm just angry right now. I didn't go Sunday. DH went with the kids. I haven't gone a lot in the past 6 weeks. I just can't deal with what I view as petty arguments, but what's making me angrier is that I CARE about the petty arguments!

And another thing - and more important for spirituality - is that DH and I are on the missions committee except we haven't met. This church does NO missions or service work. None. Well, they do participate in the local food pantry drive and host 3 blood drives a year. That's it. A call to service is a major part of Christianity for me. I'm a classic "liberal Christian." I don't know how to approach this. I want to organize something; I have a few ideas. I even have sketches of how they'd work. But I don't want to offend, which apparently we do anytime we suggest anything. I mean, for Pete's sake, I offended people by telling the kids they can't chew gum while singing in front of the church. I don't know what to do!!!

[rupiezum]

Have you directly spoken up about these issues - like, for example, your DH saying, "Jane, I don't know if you're aware of this, but I was added as a 'limited user' and I can't really do what I'm supposed to be doing as Technology Chair. Can we fix that, please?"

Or to the person who tells you your son is too young for an activity, saying, "Oh, I'm sorry, I assumed the age guideline was just that, a guideline. I see your son involved in the activity, and he seems to do pretty well despite the age difference."

The key is to say things things kindly and sincerely, with no bite, which is tough. And the responses you get a to a non-confrontational request/comment will tell you whether or not you need to finda new congregation, I'd wager.

[DahliaRW]

I think if you're not comfortable enough to go and worship on Sunday that says A LOT. I would look elsewhere. Most 3 year olds make friends really easily, so I would guess that your son will probably adjust just fine to a new church and new kids his age.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by rupiezum

The key is to say things things kindly and sincerely, with no bite, which is tough.

Ah, I know. I'm usually very blunt, and I know it comes across as mean. So I end up not saying anything because I don't want to seem like a jerk. Hubby is actually usually really good with this sort of thing, diffusing any tension with humor. He said there's something making him uncomfortable, though, and he can't put a finger on exactly what it is.

The other night, hubby had to call a former member who we know a bit with some questions. They started talking about the church in general. DH was telling him about one of the problems I had, and he said, "oh, a run-in with X. [My wife] had that problem, too." So, I think it's not just me.

Yes, I think the fact that I'm not comfortable there is a really important flag. We got a new children's minister recently, and she called the other day to ask if I would do something. We talked for a while, and she said she wants to make some changes with the way the children's programs run that I think would eliminate the power plays there.

We have a board meeting tomorrow night. DH is going to bring up his concerns there. He's going with the approach of "I'm just curious about protocol because I don't want to step on anyone's toes..."

[AprilDaisy]

It really is all in the wording. And there are some people that think their church is "their" church, to run as they see fit. My suggestion is to see where changes can be made and attempt to make them. If that proves not healthy for you, it may be time to find another church that's more welcoming to changes and ideas.

[phathui5]

I would personally be uncomfortable in a church that wasn't doing any real outreach to the community or actively helping people. The outreach is one of my favorite things about my church.

[The Duchess]

I also don't think service to others is "liberal" I think its love. I am not familiar with other denominations as I am Catholic, but Catholic parishes are very big on practical help and service because we follow the one who "came not to be served but to serve". Our brothers and sisters need our love and the Christian response is to be there.

"Preach the gospel at all times -- If necessary, use words."

-- Saint Francis of Assisi

[mccelticmom]

Oh, dear, what a rough spot to be in.

Sometimes the best thing is not to be involved that much in a church. Sorry, but I've been through some of the most horrible experiences in churches, gone through splits, gone through *let's get this pastor out* and all of the above.

Maybe you should start fresh. Look for a church that feeds your soul, that's most important and then you can easily feed your children's souls.

Prayer for you.

[VisionaryMom]

I would personally be uncomfortable in a church that wasn't doing any real outreach to the community or actively helping people. The outreach is one of my favorite things about my church.

This is how I feel, too, and it's why I'm so torn. I'm just not sure what to do, but I feel it's draining me to be involved.

I also don't think service to others is "liberal" I think its love. I am not familiar with other denominations as I am Catholic, but Catholic parishes are very big on practical help and service because we follow the one who "came not to be served but to serve". Our brothers and sisters need our love and the Christian response is to be there.

I don't think all service is liberal. I suppose I use that word because my experience in churches has been that things like feeding the homeless or providing assistance to single moms has been targeted as "that crazy bleeding heart stuff." Some service is acceptable, but those kinds - no way.

Now, our current church doesn't have that philosophy, but in practice, they don't do much service. I like the quote from St. Francis. I've been exploring (very tentatively) the idea of converting to Catholicism. I debated it in college and keep coming back to it. Much of it is for the belief in service that *I* haven't seen in Protestant churches. Of course, my husband would freak out. When I mentioned it, he just kind of raised his eyebrows.

Sometimes the best thing is not to be involved that much in a church. Sorry, but I've been through some of the most horrible experiences in churches, gone through splits, gone through *let's get this pastor out* and all of the above.

We hadn't been involved in a church since 2001. Right after 9/11, this man from the (Episcopal) church we attended started going on and on about "bombing them off the planet." I was in college and pretty radical at the time, and I just couldn't stomach it. Our priest was asked to leave the congregation (there's some formal situation, but I don't know all the terms) because he was actively a pacifist. It was a big brouhaha, and it really turned me off.

We started going to the current church in September 2006, and I really thought we were at a place where we could return and be comfortable. The minister's very first sermon was about how peace is the best possible course of action, and I thought it was a good sign. Now, things have changed. The church seems to be going backward (to me) in terms of the Iraq war. There was discussion Thursday night about doing several things basically as a pro-military message.

Luckily the discussion was tabled because I was really debating my response at that point. There's no way I can support pro-military efforts from a church. I just can't. I may be wrong, but it's how I feel. Even if I *were* supportive of the war on terror, I'm not sure if it's the church's place. Then I feel torn between the idea that we're put at this place for a reason, and perhaps that reason is to be the dissenting voice, but then I feel angry that I've *always* been the dissenting voice and thought I'd finally found a home of like-minded Christians. Where are the peacemongers?

[Kidzaplenty]

I have to think that your feelings of not wanting to be at church is a sign that something needs to change. As well as your DH's feelings that he can't pinpoint. I know switching churches is not usually an easy thing, but it is best to do it while you don't have a horror story or really bad feelings to take with you.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying that any church that has problems should just be dropped, but you seem to feel that this church might not be where you are suppose to be. That is why I mention it. Because every church is going to have problems and none are perfect.

And about converting to Catholicism, I would think long and hard on that. Not that I am against Catholics (and I don't mean to step on any toes or offend). But it is not exaclty like just changing Christian churches. They have an entirely different belief system. So it is nearly like changing religions to one that is similar but not your own. At least that is how I see it (I am sorry if I am wording it wrong).

You said your DS is 3, I know it would be hard for him to lose a friend, but he can make more. I just don't think you should stay in a church you are very uncomfortable in "just for the children's sake". Because you need fed too.

[Olives]

And about converting to Catholicism, I would think long and hard on that. Not that I am against Catholics (and I don't mean to step on any toes or offend). But it is not exaclty like just changing Christian churches. They have an entirely different belief system. So it is nearly like changing religions to one that is similar but not your own. At least that is how I see it (I am sorry if I am wording it wrong).

I know you said you weren't trying to offend but, this is such a shocking statement to me. I'm Catholic and I'm a Christian... I definitly don't think my belief system is something that should be warned about... especially if you aren't against Catholics. It just seems strange that you would warn her against become Catholic when you don't even know what religion she is currently attending. How would you even know it was that different?

Maybe since this is my first real day here in the spirituality forum I should keep my mouth shut and expect comments like this but I guess I was just shocked.

As for the poster, I hope you find a place where you can be comfortable and feel at peace... no matter what religion you choose.

I hope I'm not over stepping my new member status here.

[ernestholmes]

Humble opinion here from a longtime church goer.

Get out - it's toxic, and there are too many issues eating at you. Church - more importantly YOUR SPIRITUALITY - should not feel this way.

There is a bunch of stuff that goes on at our church not the least of which is the crazy and totally disorganized management of the children's choir my child INSISTS on being part of - but when I go to service Wednesday night- there is no residual from any ofthat human nonsense.

You need to find another place of worship!

Originally Posted by BrandiRhoades

DH and I are on the board of our church, and we're otherwise involved (playing for the children's choir, teaching SS, etc.) I'm really struggling right now with a feeling of control in the church. We're members of a denomination built on the idea that everyone in the congregation has a say. It's not like the denom in which I grew up where the pastor's word was law in the church.

Still there are a lot of power plays going on. They're silly things. Someone told me our son was too young for an activity. He was by about a month. Yet her child, who's a year too young, attends the same activities. DH is the technology chair on the board. The woman who runs the computer-based presentation on Sundays added him to the computer as a "limited user." (She doesn't realize he can work around that easily, but that's a different issue.)

It's just that the church's growth has been stagnant for a long time. We've only been there for about 18 months. We've found out gradually through casual conversation that the church has split several times in its short history (50 years). We're beginning to see why.

The problem is that 1) my son in particular really likes it there. He told me one of the kids was his "best friend." We wouldn't see this child if we didn't go to church there. DS is 3.

I want to like it there. I want to be involved. There are things I'd love to plan that DH and I have discussed - such as fun activities for young couples. But, I'm just angry right now. I didn't go Sunday. DH went with the kids. I haven't gone a lot in the past 6 weeks. I just can't deal with what I view as petty arguments, but what's making me angrier is that I CARE about the petty arguments!

And another thing - and more important for spirituality - is that DH and I are on the missions committee except we haven't met. This church does NO missions or service work. None. Well, they do participate in the local food pantry drive and host 3 blood drives a year. That's it. A call to service is a major part of Christianity for me. I'm a classic "liberal Christian." I don't know how to approach this. I want to organize something; I have a few ideas. I even have sketches of how they'd work. But I don't want to offend, which apparently we do anytime we suggest anything. I mean, for Pete's sake, I offended people by telling the kids they can't chew gum while singing in front of the church. I don't know what to do!!!

[ernestholmes]

PS about Catholicism

I was raised heavy duty Catholic by heavy duty Roman Catholic grandparents and mother.

I must also agree that converting to Catholicism is a major conversion. There is an immense amount of study to do, catechism, communion, Catholicism blanketly states that ALL other faiths and ALL other denominations will burn in hell, not to mention gays and other "miscreants". You must learn to and accept worshipping saints and the mother of Jesus in addition to God and Jesus.

I am sorry to be tough on this one - and I do accept entirely all Catholics - but it is a major conversion. Catholics are on the whole one of the most deeply committed faiths to service - in my experience as Catholic I have never seen a religious denomination give more or do more for the poor, the alcoholic, the immigrant - lots of giving and service goes on in the Catholic church.

I just had to move on because in my soul I learned - totally and deeply, that God does not send anyone to hell, ever, no matter what. I could not be part of that bleif system anymore. But if our church gave as much and served as much as most Catholic churches do - I would be happier with it for sure.

Taking on such a conversion should be done seriously, carefully, and with a great deal of care. Just as one would convert to Judaism or Buddism or anything else.

[VisionaryMom]

It just seems strange that you would warn her against become Catholic when you don't even know what religion she is currently attending. How would you even know it was that different?

We did leave our church a couple of weeks ago. I posted a thread somewhere but haven't been back to comment on it yet. FTR, we were in a Disciples of Christ church. I was raised Southern Baptist and have been to Episcopalian and Unitarian Universalist churches. (Yes, I know UU is a bit different, but just to give context.) They all obviously have some similarities with Catholicism since all Prot denoms are descended from Catholicism, but Episcopals are closest. And yes, I was happiest there.

Get out - it's toxic, and there are too many issues eating at you. Church - more importantly YOUR SPIRITUALITY - should not feel this way.

There is a bunch of stuff that goes on at our church not the least of which is the crazy and totally disorganized management of the children's choir my child INSISTS on being part of - but when I go to service Wednesday night- there is no residual from any ofthat human nonsense.

We finally discussed it, and now that I haven't been to service in 2 Sundays I actually feel better. DH helped with some tech stuff and still will go this Wednesday for some assistance (and of course they're free to call us with problems about tech issues), but that's it. We're not doing anything else there, and I have to say it feels freeing.

Maybe children's choir is just meant to be nuts. That's where a lot of my problem came from, too. I felt so drained after going to church for anything, and to see that my son wasn't getting anything out of it either (except yelled at by older kids ), it just wasn't worth it.

I must also agree that converting to Catholicism is a major conversion. There is an immense amount of study to do, catechism, communion, Catholicism blanketly states that ALL other faiths and ALL other denominations will burn in hell, not to mention gays and other "miscreants". You must learn to and accept worshipping saints and the mother of Jesus in addition to God and Jesus.

I know it would be a major conversion, and I'm not going to jump over to Catholicism without doing due diligence on the church. A portion of my family is Catholic, and I've been to a good deal of Catholic services, so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with the belief system.

You know, in the So. Baptist church where I was raised, they also believe other Christians are going to hell - Catholics in particular. Well, they don't even really consider them "legitimate" Christians, but still they're definitely doomed. I do have some issues with that - and frankly with edicts against homosexuals, though I thought there were currents within Catholicism fighting against that.

I don't know of any Christian denomination WITHOUT some of those beliefs, which is why I've avoided church altogether for the majority of my adult life. Some days I just like the idea of communing with Jesus and not going to church because then I don't have to worry about other people's interpretations of the Bible. I can use my own spirituality as a guide.

[theretohere]

I would do a few things. I would discuss my concerns with the pastor, and if things were not met with a good resolution, I would find a new church.

[dirtyhipegirl]

From my own recent experience, I used to go to a wealthy non denominational church and after I asked leaders in the church what I could do in the community through the church, such as feed homeless people, I was told that the church did not do that because they had found that most people wanted a handout from the church. To me the bible is very clear that we that are blessed are here on earth to bless those who are hungry, sick, unwanted by society, etc.. After much prayer God led me to a wonderful "come as you are" church. When I first started going I thought it was perfect, then little things here and there were annoying to me. Eventually, though I've come to understand that the "church" is made up of people, and people are imperfect. Pray about it, and God will lead you to where you are supposed to be.

[CherryBomb]

We evil Catholics also sacrifice babies and sprout horns at midnight and dance with the devil.

[Kidzaplenty]

I am sorry if I offended Catholics with my post. I was not intending to do that. Perhaps my post was not clear.

What I was trying to say is that converting to Catholicism (or any other type of religious "conversion") should not be done lightly. A conversion usually entails whole life changes and is not as simple as changing churches or even changing denominations. Many non-Catholic churches have a lot of similarities, where as Catholic churches are a bit more different. And I don't think any conversion should be done lightly, but with study and careful thought as to what you are doing and if it is really what you want to do.

So, I have nothing against Catholics at all, and if someone chooses to convert, that is their choice. But I was just suggesting that a person considering (and asking opinions, as OP was) converting to something different think it through and not make a choice based on frustration with their current situation. Conversions (to any thing) based on some emotion or something other than a true belief that the thing they are converting to is right for them usually don't last.

But that is just my opinion. I have Catholic friends and family, so I have nothing against Catholics.

[anotherKatrina]

Originally Posted by ernestholmes

PS about Catholicism


Catholicism blanketly states that ALL other faiths and ALL other denominations will burn in hell, not to mention gays and other "miscreants". You must learn to and accept worshipping saints and the mother of Jesus in addition to God and Jesus.

Hmm...my copy of the Catechism doesn't say this. How sad that this is what you were taught.

[CherryBomb]

*cough*

I wasn't talking about you, Jenny.

I was irritated at the tired old "ZOMG Catholics worships Mary and the Saints and think everyone else is going to HELLLLLL!!1!1" bs spewed out by another poster.