Friends' very aggressive child not "growing out of it"--Help! - Page 2

[Ofwait]

Originally Posted by catemom

Thanks for your responses, moms! I worry about my child's (2 1/2yrs.) safety mostly because I've seen this almost 4 yr. old kid harm newborn babies and children two or three yrs older than him. I've also had no indication that my friends think it is a big problem that should be dealt with. I think they are leaning pretty heavily toward the "free range kid" philosophy of parenting, but their son is not really learning social skills. Most of the time, their child is either playing by himself or terrorizing other children. The last time we spent time with this family, I asked the child if I could get some food for him, and his response was to make a gun with his hand and pretend to shoot me (no smile, no laughter, just a cold stare). Anyway, I am writing these details so that you can understand more about the situation. I hate to criticize my good friends, I'm no blue ribbon parent myself. I'm just so exasperated with the situation. Thank you all so much for your input, I really appreciate it!

I would personally use a lot of caution in this circumstance. I too was in a similar position, when your child is grabbed by the neck and has her head beaten into a table there is a problem. And my friends wrote it off as "boys will be boys". He was a very agressive child that the parents didn't know how to deal with and so choose not to, at every one else's expense. Our issue was solved when we moved away.
I would speak to the parents, I realize most won't acknowldge a problem though. If the issue is very serious the child may need therapy/counciling before some one really gets seriously injured.

[tiffani]

Originally Posted by LaurenS

It's not always the parent. Sometimes a child just is more "spirited". I know because I have an aggressive almost 5 year old. Some parents may think I am too permissive, so I have distanced myself from them. Though there are consequences for his actions. And often I see children egging him on pressing his buttons and their moms don't seem to do anything about it. Normal kid things I mean, it's just that my child reacts much more strongly than most kids. And once he's charged up, forget it.

hey, I have that kid too! he's 6 now, and things are sooooooooo much better -- hang in there!

One thing I want to add to this discussion is that parents often make such a big hoopla about physical aggression, but emotional aggression goes nearly unnoticed. My son has a giant red button on his chest (not literally, of course) and there are certain types of kids who just LOVE to try to get a reaction out of him, though it could mean a bloody nose for them...

I think what many people don't realize is that "aggressive" kids are often just really sensitive kids who don't react well to other kids treating them poorly, as kids often do. My son really is a sweet kid, who would never initiate a fight, but he has a very hard time stepping back from one, or not taking the bait when a kid is intentionally picking at him. He sometimes assumes a child is "being mean" when they aren't, or it's unintentional, but for the most part he's just really reactionary when kids are genuinely mistreating him, which I can understand to some degree -- it's just a matter of helping him learn to react better -- if I'm not there to assist, he'll freak out -- usually just yelling and screaming, but it does escalate to hitting (even biting on a couple of occasions) if I'm not there to help him through it. Actually there have been a few kids who have been so determined to hurt his feelings, yet we had no way to get away from seeing these kids, or their parents were clueless and anything I said to the kid wasn't helping at all, that I figured they could learn about the ramifications of their crappy behavior and I chose to just sort of step back and let them "work it out" -- one of these kids is my son's cousin, and he did, in fact, figure out that teasing and taunting my son was not the best idea and they get along much better now! . Thankfully his parents are of the mentality that "well, a bloody nose will teach him" and my son felt AWFUL that he hurt him like that, that he also makes more of an effort to not let his cousin's taunting get to him.

Like Mariah, () I also just stick close and try to help the kids work through whatever the problem is. I'm often the only parent involved, and I see the kids who are very quietly aggressive get away with it because nobody notices their "mean" behavior, while my child will start yelling at the first tinge of injustice!! so in a way, it's a blessing, because I get the opportunity to help him grow socially, whereas a lot of other parents are truly clueless about how mean and manipulative their kids can be because the kid is so quiet about it. It's harder to grow out of normal kid mistakes if nobody is there to help you.

[Max'sMama]

Originally Posted by tiffani

One thing I want to add to this discussion is that parents often make such a big hoopla about physical aggression, but emotional aggression goes nearly unnoticed. My son has a giant red button on his chest (not literally, of course) and there are certain types of kids who just LOVE to try to get a reaction out of him......whereas a lot of other parents are truly clueless about how mean and manipulative their kids can be because the kid is so quiet about it. It's harder to grow out of normal kid mistakes if nobody is there to help you.

I think you hit the nail on the head for a lot of situations.

[lunar forest]

Another thing to think about is that aggression is a symptom of something bigger. I had/have that aggressive kid too. It was so frustrating when he would be playing nicely, keeping to himself, and then out of the blue turn around and smack a kid. wth! he had a lot of aggressive behaviors and I didn't know what to do with him. Eventually another mom (who's child had been at the receiving end more than once) very sweetly and gently that maybe ds had some sensory issues. She didn't blame him for being a jerk, or me for letting him, she just simply wanted to help. I *heart* that. It wasn't because of my parenting - he had an issue that I couldn't see.
I know this isn't the only reason kids are rough/aggressive but I do think it's something that is really hard for the parent to notice until it's brought up (and then it's like "oooooooooh! right, that makes sense! I'm so blind...")

[limabean]

Originally Posted by tiffani

One thing I want to add to this discussion is that parents often make such a big hoopla about physical aggression, but emotional aggression goes nearly unnoticed.

I know what you mean. I have cousins like this -- one was very cruel emotionally to the other when they were growing up, but the taunted one was always the one getting in trouble because he responded with physical violence. It was really sad, and even as a grown man you can see the emotional shell the taunted one has built around himself.

However, the OP's DS is 2.5 years old -- I'm pretty sure he's not secretly whispering awful things in the 4yo's ear to try to press his buttons.

[Max'sMama]

Originally Posted by limabean

However, the OP's DS is 2.5 years old -- I'm pretty sure he's not secretly whispering awful things in the 4yo's ear to try to press his buttons.

True, but couldn't another child be doing the whispering towards the 4 year old and he takes it out on the next child?

I bowed earlier, because I remember lashing out after being taunted as a child. It's really a difficult place, parents don't hear the emotional and nothing is done. Also many times the aggressive child is dealt with after the fact, as sometimes, during the fact the attention is what is sought.

I know I often deal with the aggression when DS will be receptive to change, not just consumed with rage.

[tiffani]

Originally Posted by limabean

However, the OP's DS is 2.5 years old -- I'm pretty sure he's not secretly whispering awful things in the 4yo's ear to try to press his buttons.

true, it was quite likely off-topic to some degree! I just like people to have a little empathy for "aggressive" kids, as they're usually just struggling and needing help...their mamas too!

This doesn't mean we should allow aggressive behavior, or ignore it, or "boys will be boys" about it, but they don't usually need punishment as much as a sensitive ear and a strategy session for when they feel aggressive.

[Max'sMama]

Originally Posted by tiffani

true, it was quite likely off-topic to some degree! I just like people to have a little empathy for "aggressive" kids, as they're usually just struggling and needing help...their mamas too!

Preaching to the choir about that here! I have an aggressive one myself.

[Swirly]

I have total empathy for the child I have to deal with, and also for her mom, but that does not make it okay!! It does not make it okay that the child is allowed to terrorize everyone. I have suggested part of it is sensory issues (because I know the child has them) and it is ignored.

Seriously, charging across the room at the sight of a child and whacking them over the head hard with a stick (and being allowed to continue to carry the stick and hit people with it) is not being instigated by any of the other 1-4 year olds.

[Swirly]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

My feeling is that when you know your child is aggressive it is your responsibility to protect other children. For me this meant many, many occasions where I was shadowing my child, literally a few inches away from him in situations I knew could be triggers for him. I missed out on lots of mom time, great conversations with the other mothers, etc. And I did feel rather sorry for myself, but at the same time my child deserved to be out and playing and having fun, not isolated. Yet again it was my responsibility, not other parents', to make sure my child didn't hurt anybody. And it allowed me to be present before things got too out of hand, and to present my child with other options like using his words instead of his hands (he was speech-delayed, which was part of the problem).

I did not punish him. I would tell him that hitting/scratching/pushing was not okay. I'd try to point out the other child's reaction (crying, etc) but he had not yet developed the ability to empathize or control his reactions. Still, he understood English and he got that what he was doing was wrong. As his impulse-control and empathy developed he got better at controlling himself and seeing how his actions were affecting others.

And THIS is what I expect and want to see from my friend with the aggressive child. Constant shadowing (instead of being in a different room or sitting across the yard chatting), being between other children and hers, and when it happens (as it will because you can't stop everything) a very firm "Violence is NOT allowed or okay!"

My child is no saint, although so far it is not a chronic problem, and this is what I have to do to protect other children in circumstances where she is prone to reacting physically, and I expect the same courtesy.

[catemom]

Wow! I'm so glad I started this thread. Thank you again so much for all your excellent input. I agree that some kids really do have a "push my buttons" sign around their necks. The sensory issue thing sounds as if it is the more likely culprit in my friend's case. Maybe all the kids buzzing around him set him off somehow and he doesn't know how to channel that energy well.

Moms of aggressive kids Thanks so much for your responses, it is really helping me see the other side of it and have more compassion for my friends' situation.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by Swirly

And THIS is what I expect and want to see from my friend with the aggressive child. Constant shadowing (instead of being in a different room or sitting across the yard chatting), being between other children and hers, and when it happens (as it will because you can't stop everything) a very firm "Violence is NOT allowed or okay!"

My child is no saint, although so far it is not a chronic problem, and this is what I have to do to protect other children in circumstances where she is prone to reacting physically, and I expect the same courtesy.

Yep.

I've been on both sides of this issue. My toddlers hit like banshees! And I made/make it a point to be right there making sure that other people are not subjected to the phase they're in. AND I'm telling my kids that it's NOT ok, and offering up ideas and tools, and asking them to empathize, and apologizing on their behalf, and mediating and so on.

And I've also seen kids who are no longer toddlers routinely hit and grab and push and do deliberate things to anger other kids. And parents who are chilling out or else asking everyone else to accomodate their child's desire for a turn or whatever. I've bailed on those relationships. For me, I don't think you're going to change that dynamic. If people can't figure out that that's a crappy way to interact and the ensuing irritation that comes out isn't just the world coming down unfairly on their kid, then my pointing out, "Um, I notice that when your kid yanks something from mine, you ask my child to wait for a turn with the thing. I find this unfair and I'd like to discuss why," isn't probably going to do much good. I dunno....maybe they will get it, but I'm probably not going to be able to discuss it in a way that is neutral and gentle. B/c if I get to the point where we need to have that sort of "come to jesus" talk, I'm already past the point of irritation.

I don't think foregoing playdates for a while is "abandoning" anyone. To me, it's sort of the final frontier in boundary setting. If people can't or won't respect the boundaries that you're setting when you're together (like, don't hit me--and especially if they're, seemingly, not even interested in your boundaries), then you know...you gotta protect you and yours.

[tiffani]

I agree, monkey's mom. if a parent is doing NOTHING about their child's behavior, that's not ok, and it's not fair to the kids being hurt or the other moms who always have to be extra vigilant -- I for one don't mind extra vigilance when there is a little biter/hitter/scratcher in the room if the parent is doing their best to deal with the situation, but I don't want to ALWAYS have to pick up the slack of a parent who thinks it's her child's right to hurt others, or just turns a blind eye. Thankfully I'm not around any of those these days, but I have encountered several parents who seem to not think it necessary to intervene when their kid is being emotionally destructive. I do try to handle those kids myself, and sometimes they are just being kids, and when you mention to them how they might be hurting someone's feelings, they clue in and try to change their behavior. Then there are the ones who look at you with the evil eye and go right back to taunting and teasing... to which I have no recourse but to step back and see nature unfurl...

so the two points I was trying to make...

1) while helpful suggestions are ok to throw out there, we really can't assume that the parent *should* be doing anything other than what they're doing to deal with the kid -- we may not agree, or we may want to offer suggestions if whatever they're doing is repeatedly not working, but I know that coming down on my son for reactionary aggression NEVER helped even a little.

2) what looks like "aggressive" behavior is sometimes actually reactionary behavior to another child's quieter taunting, teasing, manipulating, controlling, etc. certainly not always -- I guess I'm just speaking for my own kid in that respect. It doesn't make his behavior ok either -- we work on better ways to react -- but like I said before, there have been times when I've worked so hard to help my son and another kid work out the problem, and then it becomes apparent that the other kid is used to taunting, teasing, etc, and getting away with it, and nothing I'm saying is helping, so I step back and let nature take it's course, so to speak. I used to be so very against violence of any kind, and still help my son work through things with friends in any other way possible, but I have come to see that there are kids in this world who will push, push, push those buttons intentionally and *seemingly*maliciously (I'm sure they have their own issues at hand), until all I can do is step back and let the natural consequences of their actions take effect. let the kids "work it out", so to speak, which teaches the taunting, teasing kid that you can only push so far, and reinforces for my son that it doesn't feel good to hurt others. It really is a seperate topic, not applicable to the subject at hand, really.

[HerthElde]

Just one other thing about aggressive kids and parents who seem to do nothing about it (sorry if it's been mentioned, I looked, but didn't see it).

Often, the "aggressive" kids can't be talked to in the moment. I know when my own very spirited dd gets into a mood, if I try to address the situation right then, up goes a wall and the situation gets worse. Better to calm down the situation in the moment (if it's too out of hand, we'd just leave, but otherwise if a workable solution can take place, I don't see that letting her continue to play is a "reward"), focus on the kid who might be hurt and talk to her about it later.
And she turned 4 in January, and is muchmuchmuch better than she even was a few months ago. But 4 is still pretty little. It doesn't seem like it to the mom of a 2yo or a 3yo (I remember!!). But it is.

[HerthElde]

Originally Posted by tiffani

if a parent is doing NOTHING about their child's behavior, that's not ok, and it's not fair to the kids being hurt or the other moms who always have to be extra vigilant -- I for one don't mind extra vigilance when there is a little biter/hitter/scratcher in the room if the parent is doing their best to deal with the situation, but I don't want to ALWAYS have to pick up the slack of a parent who thinks it's her child's right to hurt others, or just turns a blind eye.

Yep, have to agree with that.

catemom, the gun thing would freak me out, though, tbh. But that's based on the little sheltered bubble of the world my kids and I and our playmates all live in, especially low to no TV. It could have even been something he saw in a movie? It would definitely be a bit of a red flag to me to watch more closely, though.

[RockStarMom]

I've been in both positions, and they're both so hard! A PP mentioned something that I highly recommend, and I wanted to repeat: try to meet somewhere outside the house, where the aggressive child is more likely to be distracted by things other than messing with your child. Restaurants, the park, the beach, sticking the kids in strollers and walking through the park or downtown, etc.