How do you deal with kicking the dog?

[leila1213]

I am at a loss with how to get 21 MO DD to stop kicking my parents' little dog. I've tried explaining that we only kick balls, it hurts the doggy, she will bite, run away, etc, etc. I'm pretty sure she's doing it when/because she wants attention and is bored. So, I guess we need to focus on keeping her busy. But is there any way to prevent it? How do you stop it when it's in progress and not make it seem like a fun game? I have Unconditional Parenting and want to go that route, but I don't have time to read all the way through right now to determine how to handle this situation. Any suggestions?? Thanks!

[Adasmommy]

I just have sympathies . . . I haven't figured out how to get my three and a half year old to stop hurting our cat. I thought after this long that she would have a) gotten over it and b) matured enough to understand that we don't hurt our cat. Um, no. It is one of the most frustrating parenting problems I deal with because it's hard not to get mad at someone who up and kicks your cat!

I guess I'll be watching this thread, huh?

[limabean]

I would say something like, "Oh no! That hurts the doggie! Let's make sure the dog is okay ... are you okay, doggie? We use gentle pets with the dog, like this [show gentle pets] ... can you show me how you do gentle pets? Oh, the doggie likes gentle pets!" etc.

That's what we did when our DS went through a tail-pulling phase around that age, and it only took a couple of times before it seemed to click that the only way he was allowed to touch the dog was gently.

[~ZooBabies~]

Wow, I could have written this myself!

For some reason recently, our 3 y/o DD has started pulling our dogs tails, slightly kicking them and terrorizing our cat! She thinks it's funny! Its very frustrating.

I just started explaining to her "Ouch, that hurts the dog!, pet like this (show her how)" which sometimes feels SILLY to me, bc she PERFECTLY well seems to understand and she will do it again. *sigh* I just keep tryin' to explain to her! I hope it's just a phase!

GL!

[Limabean1975]

Originally Posted by Adasmommy

I just have sympathies . . . I haven't figured out how to get my three and a half year old to stop hurting our cat. I thought after this long that she would have a) gotten over it and b) matured enough to understand that we don't hurt our cat. Um, no. It is one of the most frustrating parenting problems I deal with because it's hard not to get mad at someone who up and kicks your cat!

I guess I'll be watching this thread, huh?

I'm watching too...and horrified to see that your 3.5 year old is still doing it! My DS is only 26 months, and now I am wondering if I will still be dealing with this more than a year from now, with our three cats.
I have been using the approach that the other Limabean (hello, other limabean!!) recommends; minimal, if any, success so far (it comes and goes in waves).

[NiteNicole]

I would keep them seperated. Yes, it's possible. We have a small dog and even tho dd has never shown any aggression towards him (or him towards her), they still aren't unsupervised together and she's not ever up in his face or space.

It's not fair for the dog to have to wait for the kid to mature, nor is it fair that when the dog finally nips.

[leila1213]

Originally Posted by NiteNicole

I would keep them seperated. Yes, it's possible. We have a small dog and even tho dd has never shown any aggression towards him (or him towards her), they still aren't unsupervised together and she's not ever up in his face or space.

It's not fair for the dog to have to wait for the kid to mature, nor is it fair that when the dog finally nips.

This was my most recent thought. We have tried demonstrating the "pet doggy gently", and still do that, but it just doesn't seem to have an impact. I will suggest my mom keep the dog upstairs or outside, but I don't know how that will go over. The dog is very clingy. I do think keeping DD busy and keeping the dog out of the way makes the most sense. Now, to try to implement this strategy...

[marlyninla]

My 38-month old kicks our uber gentle corgi from time to time. She does not do it to hurt her or to get attention -- she genuinely thinks she is playing with the dog. We have explained over and over that Stella doesn't like that play and that if she loves Stella she won't kick her, etc. To no avail. Seperating them is not an option -- they are best friends. Taking Stella away would be like taking her toys away (a form of discipline we don't use). She used to be too rough with the cat but after a couple swipes gave that up. The dog WON'T bite her (not that I want that anyway) so that's not going to "fix" it. I'll just keep explaining and "exampling". She doesn't kick hard (I guess it's more like prodding with her foot). Funny this just came up, I took this adorable video or my 20-month old dancing the other day and I noticed the big sister in the background kicking the dog when I viewed the video.

[gabysmom617]

Originally Posted by leila1213

This was my most recent thought. We have tried demonstrating the "pet doggy gently", and still do that, but it just doesn't seem to have an impact. I will suggest my mom keep the dog upstairs or outside, but I don't know how that will go over. The dog is very clingy. I do think keeping DD busy and keeping the dog out of the way makes the most sense. Now, to try to implement this strategy...

Yeah, we used to have a friend with a miniature pincher who she wasn't "sure if she would bite" and was "clingy" and she couldn't bother to lock the dog away when we came over with my then 12 month old.

We solved that problem by just quitting going over there altogether.

I get animal love, and all that, I really do. But a child's safety supercedes that. Not saying your mom's dog is dangerous or anything, but how many times will the dog accept being kicked before it gets sick of it and nips, you know? Even a small dog can do major damage, especially to such a young toddler. I mean, really, depending on how long your visits are to your mom, what is it going to hurt for the dog to spend some time in a comfy room, in it's own little bed (or better yet, maybe in a crate in the room with the family)with a treat to chew on until you guys leave? If your mom is really concerned about her grandbaby's safety and wants to see her, she'd at least do that much.

...But that's just my opinion.

[jillmamma]

I agree, I would keep kid and dog separated unless you are actively watching both very closely. Not worth it.

[limabean]

Originally Posted by Limabean1975

(hello, other limabean!!)

Hi!!

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

If your mom is really concerned about her grandbaby's safety and wants to see her, she'd at least do that much.

I understand what you're saying, and agree that in some cases separating the dog and child is best, but since the OP's DD (*not* the dog) is the one instigating the aggression in this case, you could just as easily say, "If the OP is really concerned about her mom's dog's safety and wants to spend time visiting in her house, she'd at least keep her DD away from the dog."

In my house, my dog has rights too, and if a guest kept hurting her, although I'd restrain the dog temporarily for her safety, I'd expect the guest to learn how to treat her respectfully rather than making a blanket rule that the dog would have to be segregated from the rest of us every time that family visited.

[berkeleyp]

What if you immediately picked dd up when she started being aggressive with the dog and explained that you're not going to let her hurt the dog and then hold her on your lap for a few minutes until she says she is ready to not hurt the dog again. I think giving her a choice might help her understand: you can sit with mommy or you can be "free" as long as you don't hurt the dog. You might have to do it a few times but I think she would understand and probably choose "freedom".

[gabysmom617]

Originally Posted by limabean

Hi!!



I understand what you're saying, and agree that in some cases separating the dog and child is best, but since the OP's DD (*not* the dog) is the one instigating the aggression in this case, you could just as easily say, "If the OP is really concerned about her mom's dog's safety and wants to spend time visiting in her house, she'd at least keep her DD away from the dog."

In my house, my dog has rights too, and if a guest kept hurting her, although I'd restrain the dog temporarily for her safety, I'd expect the guest to learn how to treat her respectfully rather than making a blanket rule that the dog would have to be segregated from the rest of us every time that family visited.

I agree that the first line of defense should be to try to redirect the toddler, or maybe give her the choice between "freedom/not hurting the dog" and "sitting with mommy/non-freedom after hurting the dog". Or maybe explaining to toddler that doggy feels pain too, etc. For some toddlers it may work.

But at 21 months, my toddler just was NOT able to grasp the concept that poor kitty/doggy could feel pain, nor could he display the impulse-control necessary to stop himself from making a beeline to the dog (or his case at 21 months, sil's kitty, whom we lived with temporarily) as soon as I put him down.

I understand dogs should have rights too, and that guests should be expected to treat the dog respectfully when visiting...but what if the guest is a small toddler who just too young to grasp or understand how to treat the pet with respect? Should the child be punished just because she is unable to display the behavior expected of her?

When my "friend" would invite us over, ds, then about 11ish/12ish months old, would be desperate to get down and play on the floor (not necessarily with the dog). The dog would be running around acting skittish not really wanting him around. My friend could not promise us that she would not bite, and I was expected to hold my squirming whining baby on my lap constantly, because he wanted to get down and crawl around for the duration of the visit, and the dog was allowed free. I was miserable. He was miserable. I didn't really see how it was fair. Eventually, visits to her house just became hassles that just wasn't worth it.

I think that expecting a guest in your house who has a toddler to hold this toddler down during the entire duration of the visit because she/he is enamored with the pet and can't control her impulses to engage the pet in what is in his/her mind fun reactive play, (wow! step on kitty's tail, kitty screams!) is a bit unreasonable.

As for the dog being "segregated" from the family, crates are not punishment, expecially if they are in the same room with the family. I have a very skittish dog who loves to be with the family in the same room, and she often retires to her crate when she is feeling overly nervous, and peers at us of her little window. She feels safe in her crate, and many dogs who are crate trained come to enjoy their crate, especially if it's kept in sight of the rest of the family. Crating a dog in the toddlers presence doesn't have to be a punishing "segregating" experience for the dog.

I dunno, in my opinion, I still feel that keeping a little toddler who doesn't know any better safe comes before giving the dog "rights".

FTR, my toddler is now 33 months, and shows the utmost gentleness with my pets, especially my dog, who he goes and sits beside and puts his arm around while he "talks" to the dog lovingly. He also is just now showing the signs of being able to understand empathy. For toddlers, showing empathy is a developmental stage that some toddlers reach later than other ones do. I think it's easier to expect a toddler to treat a pet respectfully only after he/she has reached this stage.

[limabean]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

When my "friend" would invite us over, ds, then about 11ish/12ish months old, would be desperate to get down and play on the floor (not necessarily with the dog). The dog would be running around acting skittish not really wanting him around. My friend could not promise us that she would not bite, and I was expected to hold my squirming whining baby on my lap constantly, because he wanted to get down and crawl around for the duration of the visit, and the dog was allowed free. I was miserable. He was miserable. I didn't really see how it was fair. Eventually, visits to her house just became hassles that just wasn't worth it.

That sounds really frustrating. I just had a friend and her two small kids over this morning, and I set my dog up with treats, water, and a blanket in the backyard for a couple of hours so that the kids could play in peace, even though the kids and the dog are all gentle and have never had a problem with each other -- I just figured that we'd have enough kid-feet tripping over train tracks, etc. without adding 4 fur-feet too. I promise I'm not completely unreasonable to my friends when they come over!

It helps to know that you have a dog too (I would have realized that sooner if I paid more attention to signatures) -- it puts your post in a new perspective. I just get tired of the "it's just a dog" mentality that I read sometimes, and feel strongly that although of course guests' rights and needs are a top priority and that it's my responsibility to train my dog and make sure that guests are always safe around her, my dog is part of my family and, whenever reasonbly possible, she gets to be with us.

[gabysmom617]

Originally Posted by limabean

...
It helps to know that you have a dog too (I would have realized that sooner if I paid more attention to signatures) -- it puts your post in a new perspective. I just get tired of the "it's just a dog" mentality that I read sometimes, and feel strongly that although of course guests' rights and needs are a top priority and that it's my responsibility to train my dog and make sure that guests are always safe around her, my dog is part of my family and, whenever reasonbly possible, she gets to be with us.

I totally get that part. I have seen people (my mom ) want some one to put up their dog and their own house because she doesn't like it...
....well, if the dog is not bothering you, and you are not bothering the dog, then what's the big deal? You don't like dogs, don't go to the other person's house.

My mom has an abundance of weirdness. But I definitely understand the point that you should be able to respect another person's house and a dog includes that...

[leila1213]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

Yeah, we used to have a friend with a miniature pincher who she wasn't "sure if she would bite" and was "clingy" and she couldn't bother to lock the dog away when we came over with my then 12 month old.

We solved that problem by just quitting going over there altogether.

I get animal love, and all that, I really do. But a child's safety supercedes that. Not saying your mom's dog is dangerous or anything, but how many times will the dog accept being kicked before it gets sick of it and nips, you know? Even a small dog can do major damage, especially to such a young toddler. I mean, really, depending on how long your visits are to your mom, what is it going to hurt for the dog to spend some time in a comfy room, in it's own little bed (or better yet, maybe in a crate in the room with the family)with a treat to chew on until you guys leave? If your mom is really concerned about her grandbaby's safety and wants to see her, she'd at least do that much.

...But that's just my opinion.

You are totally right. The problem is that my mom watches DD one day per week. For free. And, I get the feeling that if I suggest putting the dog in a crate when DD is there that I will either get a) major pushback, or b) ignored. I agree that the risk is a serious injury to DD.

And, actually, my concern at this point was primarily the dog. The poor thing has an umbilical hernia about 2" long, and I'm afraid DD will kick her right there and cause permanent damage. She (the dog) also has only one eye - which resulted from an injury my dog was responsible for!!! You can imagine the difficulties that might cause with a frisky little toddler around.

So, maybe I can frame it in terms of the dog's safety and see if she might come up with the same idea somehow??!! :

[gabysmom617]

Originally Posted by leila1213

You are totally right. The problem is that my mom watches DD one day per week. For free. And, I get the feeling that if I suggest putting the dog in a crate when DD is there that I will either get a) major pushback, or b) ignored. I agree that the risk is a serious injury to DD.

And, actually, my concern at this point was primarily the dog. The poor thing has an umbilical hernia about 2" long, and I'm afraid DD will kick her right there and cause permanent damage. She (the dog) also has only one eye - which resulted from an injury my dog was responsible for!!! You can imagine the difficulties that might cause with a frisky little toddler around.

So, maybe I can frame it in terms of the dog's safety and see if she might come up with the same idea somehow??!! :

Yeah, hmm...that's kinda sticky. I was thinking more along the lines of the dog's safety as well, because if the child hasn't reached the age of showing the empathy or self control required to respect the dog, and grandma refuses the crate the dog/put up babygates for the dog's/toddler's seperation, or somesuch to keep the dog safe from toddler, then what is the only other alternatives until she reaches that stage when she can display empathy and self control, you know? Punishing the child for something she just can't do yet? Just allowing toddler to kick the dog? Personally, I think neither of those options are acceptable...

What does your mom usually do when she's keeping your toddler and you are not there? Hopefully she keeps the dog safe from the toddler instead of punishing the toddler for something she can't understand yet...Everyone would be happier..


ETA, one more point:
The dog doesn't necessarily have to be eternally restrained with you daughter visits...I promise, if you give it a few months at the most, that little "switch" will turn on in your daughter's head, and she'll be able to understand what it means that the dog feels pain and she will understand how to treat the dog respectfully. She is just not quite there yet, she is still very young, but she will reach that stage in no time, she's almost there, she just needs a few more months...

[leila1213]

So, yesterday - I told DD when we were on our way over to my parents' house that she needed to be nice to the doggy. (She knows "nice" means petting gently.) I said that I could keep the doggy outside and M inside if she can't be nice. I kept reminding her that the doggy would stay outside and M would have to stay inside if she kicked her. When we went upstairs I left the dog downstairs, but during the time we were around the dog, she did pretty good!! She did shut the door on the dog, but I think that was mostly accidental. So, I'll convey this to my mom next time she has her. Thanks for the ideas and support!

[gabysmom617]

That great!

[berkeleyp]

Sometimes talking about things before they happen in preparation is the best for kids. My dd was going through a stage of screaming when I dropped her off at daycare so I started talking to her about what was going to happen when I dropped her off on the way there and the tantrums stopped. Its like we had rehearsed her not having a tantrum and then she didn't.