Is this a mama bear response or is it rational? (update post 52) - Page 3

[FoxintheSnow]

I agree with mommy e and laoxinat.

[Aubergine68]

I am sorry that the OP is dealing with this situation, but I think this is turning into a great thread. I am learning a lot from this discussion.

I've had the situation of having two older preschoolers exclude/pick on a younger child in my dayhome more than once.

It was really shocking to me the first time I figured out something like this was going on, especially since my then 5-yr-old dd was one of the bullies . I can empathize with the mom's (possibly inadequate) immediate reaction to her daughters' behavior. Sometimes we really aren't sure in the heat of the moment what the right thing to do is, and it is hard when strategies we used to use (like maybe the not forcing apologies) might not be enough anymore.

I define exclusion, and two or more children hurting another and laughing about it as bullying behavior. This is a very different from a fight over a toy.... with preschoolers, especially, it doesn't mean that the kids involved are "bad" kids....just that it is time to start teaching them more about empathy and friendship skills that maybe they haven't been ready for before.

I agree that laughing in this situation could very well have been a nervous reaction....but it is not an appropriate one, either. It is important for children to learn that we don't laugh when someone is hurt, before it *does* turn into true contempt for the pain of others. This is something I am working on when a child is crying in my home for whatever reason -- I don't want to hear "I didn't do it!" or "He took my car!" or anything else besides "Are you ok? Can I help you?" and I'm trying to teach the little ones I look after that the only appropriate response when someone is hurt is compassion and help. And, yes, for me, that might sound like "I'm so sorry you are hurt!"

Reading Barbara Coloroso's, The Bully, the Bullied and the Bystander, made a huge difference in how I approach situations like this. I now feel that a situation like this with very young children is actually a golden opportunity for parents to start considering bullying issues and how to handle them, how to "bully-proof" their child and community.

It is important to start teaching the child being bullied to stand up for himself, to start teaching the children doing the bullying to use their power and leadership potential to help others, not hurt them, and to start teaching all children and adults who might witness a situation like this how important it is to not tolerate bullying when they see it happening....but also to work together to create a safe and positive environment of empathy for others where bullying CAN'T happen.

"Bully" is a very strong word, and I don't think it would be useful for the OP to
use it in discussion with her friend about her friend's children! But I do think that a calm discussion about how that situation was unfortunate and awkward for everyone, and maybe it's time to start teaching all of their children that one can always play alone but excluding others from a group is not ok, and that when another is hurt we have to help them, etc. would be very appropriate. If it were me, I'd ask my friend's advice on how to prevent a situation like this happening again, and listen to what she says.

It is important to start teaching older toddlers to ask an adult for help if they are having trouble playing with older children, too, so maybe the OP's child could start learning a useful strategy as well... he needs the protection of adults, but also to learn that he has ways to protect himself, too.

I have a baby monitor that I use when children are playing in a room slightly away from me. I can sit in the kitchen with a friend and keep an ear tuned to problems in another room. Not useful for younger toddlers who might hit almost spontaneously, but great for more verbal older children who need help sharing and playing well with others. If the layout of the home makes supervision of play spaces a little awkward, then maybe a tool like this might help in the OP's situation.

[hattifattener]

Originally Posted by greeny

I've had problems with my now-3-year-old biting badly when he was younger. It was awful - horribly painful for the other kids, very embarrassing for me, put a strain on my friendships with other moms.

We decided our solution would be to leave immediately if it happened.

"Leaving immediately" has been popping up alot as a suggestion for how moms can react when their little ones hurt others.

I am really wanting to learn more about natural consequences in these kinds of situations, as opposed to the random "no snack" type of punishment. But what do you do if your child is acting out BECAUSE they want to leave? Short of realizing what they're after and giving it to them BEFORE they get out of hand (not always possible), what do you do?

It's really a nasty situation- you can't give in to their wishes and go, 'cause that would teach them that hitting gets them what they want. But it also doesn't seem appropriate to stay, if things are going that badly. Any thoughts on this variation?

[chaimom]

OK... so the mom doesn't do forced apologies, but was the mom not sorry herself that her daughters hurt the toddler? If she didn't feel the need to apologize, I would have problems with that.

Plus, I don't understand all the passive language moms have in apologizing on behalf of their children: "I'm sorry that happened; I'm sorry you got hurt." NO. That's not what happened. How about owning up to what happened and letting the offending child hear it: "I'm so sorry my child hit you. That was wrong." (Hug the hurt child) "What will make you feel better?" The hitter shouldn't have hit. If he doesn't feel the need to apologize, so be it. But he shouldn't be made to feel OK about hitting either. He needs to know his mom doesn't approve.

As far as no-snack consequences-- someone really does that?! Natural consequences for the OP's incident would be leaving the playdate immediately (my choice). Or only being allowed to play within site of the parents, since they couldn't be trusted alone.

Also, I think in this instance the OP should seriously consider having a heart-to-heart with her friend by saying, "I love the relationship our daughters have, but I'm not sure we can continue the playdates if my son is excluded. I have to bring him along, so he needs to be able to play, too. If not, I'm afraid we can't come." It's possible the other mom thinks her daughters have a right to exclude the boy by any means possible (pushing him off the bed). And in that case, it gives the other mom the ability to back out of the playdate. Or if she accepts the "terms" of the playdate, she'll probably be more involved in coaching her daughters into more acceptable behavior.

Anyway, just MHO.

Best of luck resolving the situation.

[hattifattener]

Originally Posted by chaimom

As far as no-snack consequences-- someone really does that?! Natural consequences for the OP's incident would be leaving the playdate immediately (my choice). Or only being allowed to play within site of the parents, since they couldn't be trusted alone.

Geeez! Nobody I know does! I'm just asking what the natural consequence should be if leaving is what the misbehaving child wanted. Cause that wouldn't be much of a consequence, see?

[dawn1221]

Originally Posted by thismama

Ha! well they may not believe in forced apologies but I dont believe in violent behaviour going on without consequences. I think you are having a rational mama bear response, myself. I have told other peoples children, in a serious tone, that being aggressive with my child is not okay and if they are not able to behave decently they will not be playing with her. I've done this actually when apologies have been forced but mumbled insincerely and I have not felt this to be adequate (no true remorse demonstrated, no other consequence, repeated violent behaviour from the child). I feel it's my job to protect my kid... it is true it's the other mama's place to deal with her child, but if she is not doing it, I will let the child know what I will and will not tolerate... mostly for the benefit of my own child who needs and deserves my protection, but also to let the other child know what's what and what they can expect from me if they dont change their behaviour.

If my kid were repeatedly or callously violent with a friend, she would get seriously lectured and told an apology is in order. I would definitely offer one if she did not, and I would let her know that if the behaviour happens again, she can expect xyz to happen (no more playtime, have to sit with me, etc). I would tell her that in front of the other child, because I think a child who has been treated poorly by a friend who doesn't feel badly needs to see some kind of justice being done.

Wow, this is exactly what I would have done too.

FTR, I would have been pissed if a friends children treated my child that way. Someone owed the kid an apology. And if I didn't believe in making my kids apologize, then I would have been the one to apologize.

In fact, I would have stated, in front of my kids, how disappointed I was in their behavior and how sorry I was that they took this opportunity to treat your child this way.

I also would have been clear about how embarrassed I was that they thought it was okay to do such a mean thing to another child.

The mother of the offending children misbehaved in this case.

[pranamama]

I do believe in forced apologies. Some social skills require practice, just like saying please and thank you and the mortification involved when you realize you've hurt someone means a lot of kids get as upset as the chid they've hurt, or want to laugh it off.

I think learning to apologize is a wonderful skill and want my children to knowo
how to apologize.

[pranamama]

I think what I don't like is that the announcement that we don't do forced apologies sounds like an anti-apology almost as in there will be no consequences for my child.

If I didn't force apologies, I don't think I would announce it at that particular time, maybe before the playdate would be more appropriate

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by hipumpkins

The playdates can not really be seperated for just girls. We live about 40 min from each other. they all are growing up together. Other mom and I met when our oldest girls were just months old so I feel they should play kindly together or at least be helped to do so.
It does infuriate me (mama bear maybe not rational) when the other girls want to seperate out DS.

It might not be part of the issue at all, but, if having some "protected" time without ds helps them play kindly together most of the time, it could be worth the effort. Why would it infuriate you if they want to play without ds sometimes? Excluding is unkind, yes. But desiring some time together without a 2 yo in the mix isn't nec unkind. And, ime, these relationships are fluid....the siblings that dd really wanted a "break" from when they were 2 or 3 are sometimes her favorite children to play with now that they are 4 or 5.

[hipumpkins]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

It might not be part of the issue at all, but, if having some "protected" time without ds helps them play kindly together most of the time, it could be worth the effort. Why would it infuriate you if they want to play without ds sometimes? Excluding is unkind, yes. But desiring some time together without a 2 yo in the mix isn't nec unkind. And, ime, these relationships are fluid....the siblings that dd really wanted a "break" from when they were 2 or 3 are sometimes her favorite children to play with now that they are 4 or 5.

The playdates last several hours usually b/c of the distance. So the kids are not all together all the time. sometimes we are reading books, sometimes they are outside, sometimes one kid is out with us while the others are doing something.
DS is part of the group. When the group is playing he should be a a part of it to the extent that he can play with them. He loves dress up and can play Barbies just easily as the girls. He isn't rough and actually is quite gentle. He is easy to play with b/c he'll do pretty much what you ask. (as he approaches 3 though this might all change )
I do think it is better to teach them how to play together than accept that those girls just don't want to.

It's not like they have trouble playing b/c he is a toddler; they don't want to play with him b/c he is a boy and that makes me crazy. (and that might jsut be b/c i adore him and feel his sadness when they say don't want to play with him)

"I love the relationship our daughters have, but I'm not sure we can continue the playdates if my son is excluded. I have to bring him along, so he needs to be able to play, too. If not, I'm afraid we can't come." It's possible the other mom thinks her daughters have a right to exclude the boy by any means possible (pushing him off the bed). And in that case, it gives the other mom the ability to back out of the playdate. Or if she accepts the "terms" of the playdate, she'll probably be more involved in coaching her daughters into more acceptable behavior.

I like the wording of this. I will use it if tomorrow we run into the same problems.
we haven't seen each other since then so we'll see.

[hipumpkins]

Aubergine68,
your post is full of great advice. I am going to get that book from the library if only for the tools I would need in other later encounters as well. I read , "you can't say you can't play" which is not really about bullying so much as exclusionary play of children. It helped me feel better about teaching kids to play together rather than tell the cast off child to some and play with me (or whatever)

[hipumpkins]

The playdate went really well. The mom either talked to them or else a long break from each other was needed.

Everyone played well together and the youngest girl kept offering Michael crackers...well until she said, "that's enough Michael " in her most grown up voice

At one point the 3 girls were downstairs and DS wanted to go too. I was walking him down and when they saw us the older one said, "hide a monster!!" At first I was ready to defend my son...but then I realized they meant me!!
All kids scurried into sleeping bags.

thanks for all the replies!

[Aubergine68]

Thanks for the kind words, hipumpkins! It is great to hear that your playdate went so well!

Originally Posted by hipumpkins

I read , "you can't say you can't play" which is not really about bullying so much as exclusionary play of children. It helped me feel better about teaching kids to play together rather than tell the cast off child to some and play with me (or whatever)

I haven't read that book, but requested it on interlibrary loan after seeing it mentioned in this forum. I look forward to reading it. I love the title, and avoiding exclusion is an issue I feel strongly about.

[Equuskia]

My dd is 2.5, and not the most verbal, so I do apologize for her when she does something, or at least inquiry if the other child is ok if no one was hurt. I agree that the mother should have apologized for her girls' behavior, because even though she didn't do it, as a parent she is still responsible for their actions. I'm not saying it's her fault, just that she is responsible for what her child does.

Someone asked if leaving the park when their child was acting up in order to leave the park was giving in. Here is my take on it. I don't know how old the child is you are referring to, but I will use my daughter as an example. When it's bedtime, sometimes she just takes my hand, drags me to bed and says "bed" or "I wanna go to bed. Come on". But sometimes she gets whiny about it. Really whiny. Do I give in and take her to bed? Or deny the fact that she sounds overtired and leave her where she is because she's whiny and that's not the way to ask me? The way I see it, if I take her to bed, it's not giving in, because she has a legitimate need, but is simply not using her verbal skills. I remind her "If you want to go to bed, tell mommy you want bed" and take her there. If your child wants to leave the park, leave, but do tell him "We don't hit people, it hurts [or whatever inappropriate action the child was doing] If you want to leave, please come and tell me." The child has a legitimate need (may be overstimulated, tired, hungry etc), but is either lacking the skills to express themselves or are just too overstimulated to remember. I see that moment as more of a teaching and reminding moment than one that needs natural consequences.