Mac bit my son this morning ***UPDATED*** - Page 2

[Sage_SS]

***** sorry double post

[thekimballs]

Originally Posted by ReadingMama

But is it ethical to foster a child in a home with a dog that is known to bite? Even if I trust my son to have "learned his lesson" and I recommit to being vigilant about supervision, is it safe to bring a foster child into the situation?

North of 60 has all the good information on training; I just wanted to comment on my "don't borrow trouble" advice. If you're in the middle of training, you've got months of stuff to do, right? You're not going to get a call tomorrow night. In the months until you actually have to make a call regarding Mac and foster children, ANYTHING could happen, including Mac going to his sweet reward for something totally different. So I am saying deal with the situation today, get that under control, before you start piling "what ifs" on top of it. I've very rarely had THE THING I worried about actually come even close to fruition; it's always some new and different issue and I wonder why I was so silly as to worry about THE THING for so long.

[AsYouWish]

Originally Posted by ReadingMama

The peeing in the house started after a couple months on the steriods. He drinks more because of the steroids and so he pees more often. That's the connection between the two. I had a urinalysis done to make sure it wasn't an infection and then the vet recommended trying something else for pain management. Not only has it not been as good for pain, even though it's Rimadyl, it also hasn't stopped the peeing in the house. He didn't pee in the house for the first couple of months we had him. Only after the steroids.

I just wanted to pipe in with my experience with my dog peeing in the house. My dog has never been completely house trained, but he does pretty well overall. Most of his accidents are the result of separation anxiety, or me not reading his cues because he never explicitly signals that he needs to go out. But about 18 months ago, Edison started peeing in the house with DP and I standing right there, sometimes even right after coming inside. He had two separate urinalyses done over the course of a week or so, and came up clear, and the vet said it must be behavioral. But I just knew without a doubt it wasn't. I pushed hard for a blood draw and analysis, and that is how we found out he had a kidney infection. Poor babywookie! I have no idea why two UAs didn't give us this information, but I'm glad I pushed the vet on that one.

It sounds like for Mac's peeing issues you have a lot more variables going on, so it could be he really does have a kidney or bladder issue that hasn't been detected yet. Also, just FYI, in Edison's case, he really was drinking an extraordinary amount of water and was really grumpy/irritable. And I think from the point that he was symptomatic (because it took us a while to figure out that there was something more going on than his typical accidents) it was almost four weeks until we found out that he had the kidney infection. So it went on a while, and we didn't even have all of the age/illness/medication variables you are dealing with.

I hope this was helpful to you. Good luck as you figure everything out!

[ReadingMama]

Thank you, North of 60 for the link and info. What is bell training?

And thanks to everyone else (sorry, I don't have time this morning to type much) for your understanding and support. I will do all I can to make this work, but I clearly need to do more research about the foster parenting part. I do feel more informed and calmer now, so you all have really helped a lot. As of now, all I'm sure of is that Mac is no longer allowed on the furniture, my son will have to learn that he can only interact with Mac when I'm there with him, and we need to change meds for Mac's pain.

Originally Posted by AsYouWish

I just wanted to pipe in with my experience with my dog peeing in the house. My dog has never been completely house trained, but he does pretty well overall. Most of his accidents are the result of separation anxiety, or me not reading his cues because he never explicitly signals that he needs to go out. But about 18 months ago, Edison started peeing in the house with DP and I standing right there, sometimes even right after coming inside. He had two separate urinalyses done over the course of a week or so, and came up clear, and the vet said it must be behavioral. But I just knew without a doubt it wasn't. I pushed hard for a blood draw and analysis, and that is how we found out he had a kidney infection. Poor babywookie! I have no idea why two UAs didn't give us this information, but I'm glad I pushed the vet on that one.

It sounds like for Mac's peeing issues you have a lot more variables going on, so it could be he really does have a kidney or bladder issue that hasn't been detected yet. Also, just FYI, in Edison's case, he really was drinking an extraordinary amount of water and was really grumpy/irritable. And I think from the point that he was symptomatic (because it took us a while to figure out that there was something more going on than his typical accidents) it was almost four weeks until we found out that he had the kidney infection. So it went on a while, and we didn't even have all of the age/illness/medication variables you are dealing with.

I hope this was helpful to you. Good luck as you figure everything out!

I will keep an eye on the peeing issue. The strange thing is that he did fine when he was on the steroids at first. Then he got off them for several days and then got back on. It was only after starting them the second time that the peeing in the house started. The vet says he just needs more time off the steroids for them to be completely out of his system (he's been off them for 2 weeks.)

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by ReadingMama

Thank you, North of 60 for the link and info. What is bell training?

Bell training is a method of shaping the dog's behavior so that you receive a CLEAR signal that the dog has to eliminate by them alarming a bell when they need to go outside. I use it a lot with clients who are having house training issues because I find a lot of times the accidents happen because the owner and the dog are two like two ships passing in the night. Unless a dog is incontinent, there ARE signals being given that he has to get outside, it's just that it's very easy for us to miss them. And when dogs are on medications or getting older it can be overwhelming for them that they suddenly have the urge to pee. They simply don't have time to subtly circle the kitchen table 4 times counter clock wise to tell you they have to get outside like they used to.

[ReadingMama]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

North of 60 has all the good information on training; I just wanted to comment on my "don't borrow trouble" advice. If you're in the middle of training, you've got months of stuff to do, right? You're not going to get a call tomorrow night. In the months until you actually have to make a call regarding Mac and foster children, ANYTHING could happen, including Mac going to his sweet reward for something totally different. So I am saying deal with the situation today, get that under control, before you start piling "what ifs" on top of it. I've very rarely had THE THING I worried about actually come even close to fruition; it's always some new and different issue and I wonder why I was so silly as to worry about THE THING for so long.

Thank you for giving me some perspective. I meant to say that earlier, but forgot!

UPDATE:

I contacted Russell Rescue, not to place Mac, but to get advice on how to manage the different issues we're dealing with. Their website says one of their major goals is to help dogs stay in their current homes, so hopefully they will be a good resource for us.

I've decided to put Mac back on steroids and look into belly bands or bell training. He's still peeing in the house a few times a week, so he might as well be back on steroids and feeling better.

I will confess that I have not stopped Mac from being on the couch. I'm so inconsistent! He snaps at dh if he tries to get him off the couch, but I can gently lift him off. Ds is not allowed to try to get him off the couch. I'm going to the trainer website posted in an earlier post right now.

[Aries1985]

The belly bands are AWESOME!

Friends of mine had a shih zou who peed constantly. Literally, he would just stand there and pee and nothing was medically causing it. He did fabulously with a bely band and a poise pad in it.

[ReadingMama]

Here is a summary of what a very nice and helpful person from Russell Rescue said. She said that while she can't really advise me too much because she hasn't met Mac, she is very concerned with the biting and young kids. She said that Mac has several issues: biting and snapping at people, separation anxiety, resource guarding, and the pee issue. She said it would not be fair to rehome him at this point, for liability reasons and because people are more likely to abuse dogs with behavior problems like Mac's. She said it's a quality of life issue for us and for Mac. For Mac, it's living with constant pain and the fear of someone hurting him. For us, it's the fear of getting bitten and concerns about liability for people who visit. She said she recommends a behaviorist, but that I should also consider euthanasia (since there's the kid/dog conflict and he's not a rehoming candidate.)

My vet has mentioned euthanasia twice--not for biting, but because we haven't been able to get the pain under control and the vet doesn't want to just sedate Mac all the time.

Considering that freaks me out. He still has some life left in him, you know? There's a part of me that just thinks, "He shouldn't have to be euthanized because the people who rescued him aren't a great fit for his needs." What if an experienced JRT person without kids had found him instead of me? That would have been a better fit, even with all of Mac's issues. Should he be euthanized because I don't know how to manage a JRT with behavior problems? I don't know if I'm thinking clearly about it. I guess I'm surprised that two experienced dog people mentioned euthanizing Mac in the same day.

[thekimballs]

This is a very difficult decision.

I would personally say that for me the entire decision would hinge on the pain factor. Behavioral issues can be managed, avoided, trained, etc. And, let's face it, most of them are inconvenient for US, not so much for the dog. The dog is happy--a badass, but happy. Pain is something totally different. Pain immediately and constantly affects quality of life, and a dog in pain is a miserable dog.

We also know that dogs don't know how long they've lived; they don't know how long dogs "normally" live; they're not afraid of death; they don't fear what is to come. For a dog, life is entirely in the now, this day, this hour. A dog in pain doesn't say "Well, but I'm only three; I should count my blessings." He only knows that he doesn't feel right and is unhappy.

For that reason, I (and this really is my personal conviction; take it for what you wish) would not keep a dog that is in constant pain and that pain cannot be controlled alive. Doesn't matter if the dog is two or twenty. It doesn't matter if the pain is "only" pain, and the dog would otherwise live ten or twelve more years. If I cannot, in a reasonable amount of time, provide that dog with the majority of its hours pain-free, I owe it to the dog to send it to heaven.

You guys have been HEROES to this dog. I mean that. You have not skipped any steps; you're doing everything right. This is not a decision that should be bound by guilt or insecurity. It needs to be about the dog first and foremost, and then about you and your family and your limits. And remember that even a short life that has known love is far, far to be preferred than most other things on earth.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

This is a very difficult decision.

I would personally say that for me the entire decision would hinge on the pain factor. Behavioral issues can be managed, avoided, trained, etc. And, let's face it, most of them are inconvenient for US, not so much for the dog. The dog is happy--a badass, but happy. Pain is something totally different. Pain immediately and constantly affects quality of life, and a dog in pain is a miserable dog.

We also know that dogs don't know how long they've lived; they don't know how long dogs "normally" live; they're not afraid of death; they don't fear what is to come. For a dog, life is entirely in the now, this day, this hour. A dog in pain doesn't say "Well, but I'm only three; I should count my blessings." He only knows that he doesn't feel right and is unhappy.

For that reason, I (and this really is my personal conviction; take it for what you wish) would not keep a dog that is in constant pain and that pain cannot be controlled alive. Doesn't matter if the dog is two or twenty. It doesn't matter if the pain is "only" pain, and the dog would otherwise live ten or twelve more years. If I cannot, in a reasonable amount of time, provide that dog with the majority of its hours pain-free, I owe it to the dog to send it to heaven.

You guys have been HEROES to this dog. I mean that. You have not skipped any steps; you're doing everything right. This is not a decision that should be bound by guilt or insecurity. It needs to be about the dog first and foremost, and then about you and your family and your limits. And remember that even a short life that has known love is far, far to be preferred than most other things on earth.

:

(I'm too sick to say much else, but "yeah that".)

[junebugmidwife]

Originally Posted by spring978

I think rehoming Mac would be a blessing for everyone he needs a nice elderly couple.

((hugs)) to you and your boy getting nipped is scary.

Normally I wouldn't suggesting rehoming unless it was a last resort but because of the short amount of time you have had him and the likelyhood he will just get grumpier I think rehoming is ideal

Just wanted to say ITA with this. I have rescue dogs (not kids), and know what it's like to have a child bitten (in our case, it was a doxie--bad idea with little kids and a dog of unknown/poor breeding). Very scary and your dog sounds like a setup for more biting.

If the elderly couple won't take him, contact a breed or other rescue to see if they can take him, to keep him out of a shelter.

[ReadingMama]

Update!

Originally Posted by thekimballs

This is a very difficult decision.

I would personally say that for me the entire decision would hinge on the pain factor. Behavioral issues can be managed, avoided, trained, etc. And, let's face it, most of them are inconvenient for US, not so much for the dog. The dog is happy--a badass, but happy. Pain is something totally different. Pain immediately and constantly affects quality of life, and a dog in pain is a miserable dog.

Thank you so much for helping me think about this in a new way. I understand why the trainer I emailed mentioned euthanasia. At the same time, after really giving it some thought, I don't think I can do it for behavioral reasons (unless I had a truly vicious dog who was a danger to everyone.) But you're right. For him to have an enjoyable life, I have to get his pain managed. There are a few things we haven't tried-like pain medication injections and glucosamine/chondroitin injections. The vet said that's about all he's got left to try to get the back pain under control. Mac's back on steroids and he's still on tramadol and Promotion.

I had planned to get belly bands for him since I put him back on prednisone, but guess what! The PP who mentioned that her dog tested negative for a bladder infection and then tested positive later on called it right! A second urinalysis a month after the first showed an abnormal PH, white blood cells, and some crystals that may or may not mean a kidney stone is forming. That's actually good news because it not only explains the peeing in the house, but it also might explain why he's been crabbier than usual lately. Whoo! He's on an antibiotic for 2 weeks.

More great news! After discussing this situation with my mom to get her input on all the options, she offered to take Mac in June when she moves to a new place! She knows all of Mac's issues and is firmer and more consistent about discipline than I am. Although she likes little dogs and has said before, "If I had a place where I could have a dog, I'd take him," I didn't even think of her as an option because until a week ago she hadn't been planning on moving from her apartment where dogs aren't allowed. I'm so grateful!

::

[dbsam]

ReadingMama,
I am so glad for you and Mac!! (and your mother since she will hopefully enjoy Mac's company.)

I am not as knowledgeable as some of the pp's but have lived with this same issue. Prior to having my children I spoke with our behaviorist several times making sure I wasn't letting my love for Harry endanger our children. In Harry's case, she felt it was workable if I was diligent. She also said, however, she was only saying this because she knew me and my husband and in some other families would recommend putting him down and would not have recommended re-homing because of his issues. (We didn't have someone like your mother who knew us, Harry and the entire situation and where we could continue to be involved with his life.) It was hard setting limits and the behaviorist constantly reminded me “He does not think like a person” and I cannot simply ‘love’ his issues away.

Earlier, when you were asking about finding a behaviorist -ours is our vet. She is with our original vet group but we switched to her when we found Harry because she was the only vet in the group who was also a behaviorist. It is nice to have someone who understands the medical and mental sides of a dog. I’m mentioning this because some behaviorists do not advertise since, like ours, she is so busy with her vet clients. You may want to check with vets if your mother ever needs someone to work with Mac.

[dbsam]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

Behavioral issues can be managed, avoided, trained, etc. And, let's face it, most of them are inconvenient for US, not so much for the dog. The dog is happy--a badass, but happy.

This is so true and said perfectly!!

[ReadingMama]

I laughed when I read "badass" too! Thanks for all your help and support everyone. I'll keep you updated.

[ReadingMama]

Mac bit ds again this morning. This time on the arm. It didn't break the skin, but it did cause a bruise. Once again Mac was on the couch. He was snuggled under throw pillows and ds forgot he was there and bumped a pillow. Mac just reacted. It's hard to keep Mac off the couch because he is so little and short that if you try to stop him mid-jump, he twists and falls off the couch (not good for a long backed dog with a bulging disc--of course, neither is jumping up on the furniture!)

Mac has tried to bite ds 4 times since we found him in October. He missed once and made contact the other three times. Only once did it break the skin. But I don't trust Mac and I feel bad for ds. My mom will still take Mac at the beginning of July, but because of the repeat biting, I'm thinking I should get a soft muzzle for Mac--the kind that lets the dog still drink with it on. I don't know if that would make Mac even more prone to try to bite (like maybe he'd feel more threatened because he couldn't defend himself.) Of course, I don't really care what Mac thinks about it. I just don't want to deal with any MORE Mac issues than we're already dealing with!

Mac doesn't pee in the house when he's on an antibiotic for the bladder infection (he's back on prednisone for arthritis), but he starts peeing inside again if he goes off the antibiotic (even after being on it for two weeks.) So he's on it for another two weeks.

Dh lost his job recently so we can't afford a behaviorist right now. We're just going to try to stick it out until July. I love Mac--I really do. He's just HIGH MAINTENANCE!

[mom_of_boys]

Terriers, imho, are just not child friendly and yes that's a biased opinion b/c my MIL has one and she is a horrible jrt (just a rotten terrier)

can't touch her while on her special couch, have to hold her mouth shut so the boys can kiss her (why force young kids to kiss a bratty little dog bawfled my mind)

She bares her teeth ALL the time and MILs excuse "oh that's how she plays" umm yeah I don't think so!


It sounds like Mac needs a new home. One w/o kids. good luck!

[thekimballs]

Ummm...I'm not sure how to put this without being seen as scandalous, but your son is eight, right? And these bites are scary but not actually dangerous, right? Then, in my house, Mac would win the argument, to put it baldly.

We've talked about keeping him off the couch if at all possible, and I think you know all those steps. You need to keep doing them, as consistently as possible. But when Mac does bite, there is some dominance there, but I think we all agree that most of this is a small dog in pain, reacting to a child he perceives as threatening. So at this point, if your son was my kid, he'd get "Yeah? And what were you doing wrong that you got bitten?"

My sister's poodle mix is very nervous about kids, and though he's much, much better now, in the past he's bitten all my kids. So at this point, since we know his triggers (basically, he panics and bites if he thinks a kid is going to fall on him or physically threaten him), if I see one of my kids being stupid near him I say "Look, that dog is going to bite you, and it's going to be your fault." And when they come to me crying that he bit them, they get blamed, because I know that he's biting out of fear and that they scared him.

I know I'm the mean mom, and I know that's going in the face of the sort of conventional wisdom about dogs these days (where a bite is the ultimate evil), but when you're talking about permanently muzzling him--well, your son needs to check the blankets before he sits down. And he needs to take responsibility for actions that make Mac bite. Eight IS old enough to remember to call you if Mac is on the couch, so you can shoo Mac off.

My advice would be TOTALLY different, please realize this, if Mac was doing this because he was being aggressive. But an old dog who is biting because he's been hurt is a whole different ball of wax.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by mom_of_boys

Terriers, imho, are just not child friendly

Terriers actually make great family pets. Many hunters and bushmen use terriers specifically BECAUSE they're good family pets (as opposed to more primitive breeds). Unfortunately, the problems you are describing are a direct result of bad (or non existent!) training in a breed that THRIVES off assertive yet gentle leadership. The problems your mom is having are probably her fault, and not the fault of her dog. It's just that simple.

And as for holding the dog's mouth shut so the kids can kiss it.. I wouldn't recommend that. Not unless you want your kid's face to get mauled. The reason muzzles were invented was because it's DANGEROUS for humans to hold shut the mouth of a nasty dog. If that dog shows its teeth and growls, keep your kids face away from the dog.

Originally Posted by thekimballs

My advice would be TOTALLY different, please realize this, if Mac was doing this because he was being aggressive. But an old dog who is biting because he's been hurt is a whole different ball of wax.

:

Is there a room that you can give to Mac as his safe place, just until your mom can take him? Maybe a spare bedroom, or a gated kitchen? It sounds like he needs a quiet place where's not going to constantly get disturbed. My jacks like to burrow under the throw blankets too, and the simplest solution is to give them blankets to burrow in a room where my daughter isn't accidentally going to land on them (because it has happened). For that reason the living room is now dog free. They go to the blankets like a moth to a flame, and with a toddler running around I can't do "blanket checks" everytime she goes in there to get a toy. I just had to get diligent about that room being dog free. They have the foyer now with a big plush dog bed and a throw blanket, and it's out my daughters path of destruction, so she can't accidentally trip on them or anything. It has helped tremendously.

[BunnySlippers]

I think you are awesome

You are doing an awesome job with this dog