friend thinking of circ...advice?

[caitlinlea]

One of my good friends just gave birth to a baby boy a couple of weeks ago (she already has a daughter). I am completely anti-circumcision -- I feel very very strongly about it. We are both part of a small online community (12 women) and all of us are very close and have been through pregnancies and births of first and even second children together. A few of the other women have circumcised their sons so I am really hesitant to say anything about the subject (me and one other mother did not circumcise). She recently told us that the circumcision is scheduled for next week -- he was a small baby, just 5 pounds, and they wanted to give him a few weeks before the procedure. She's admitted they are on the fence about it but hasn't asked for any advice. Should I email her some links/info about circumcision? I hate for any child to go through this cruel and unnecessary procedure, yet it is considered so normal that still many parents don't question it too much.

I don't want to step in and thrust my beliefs on her, especially if she decides to circumcise anyway I don't want it to be awkward between us. I already do so many things "differently" that I don't know how much effect I will have. I know everyone in our group respects me and I love them all dearly but we avoid discussion on particular issues where it is me against all of them (vaccines, for example).

Thanks for the advice! I just want to do the best thing for my friend while still respecting her choices.

Caitlin

[perspective]

I think you definitely should share your thoughts on this. You have to understand that there is a difference between sharing your beliefs, and thrusting them upon others.

Your doing nothing wrong by sharing your thoughts. Think of all the mothers on this site that feel so blessed to have been "enlightened" before they had a son. (and sadly, all those here who feel so regretful because they were not)

You need to use your passion to fuel your confidence, but not to override your message. Its very easy to fall accidentally into a tone that ends up sounding like "im right, and your wrong". But if you can present it in a way that she can feel your confidence and sincerity in your message, but so it does not feel like she is being told what to do, even if she ends up disagreeing with you, she (at the rest of the group) will still respect you for it.

[caitlinlea]

Thanks for the reply. Any advice on where I should direct her for more information? The problem is every site/article I know of is against circumcision, which is frequently referred to as genital mutilation. Obviously I agree with this but I'm not sure that it strengthens my case to offer such biased material. Although, really I don't believe there is a single good reason to circumcise (other than religious beliefs, which are not an issue with her) so it's hard to find information in a pro/con format.

[thixle]

www.nocirc.org
Once you get a good grasp on the issue, you realize there is NO WAY to be unbiased. It is wrong to perform cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting minor.
The best approach, I have found is to simply pour out your heart to your friend. Be it email, phone call, or in person.

She wouldn't do it to her daughter, kwim?

If you are interested, I can pm you some info I've cropped together in word documents. Some is pro-circ, but anti-INFANT circ. Some discusses the similarity between the genitals of femals and males. Some discuss ethical issues. Just pm me your email address and I would be happy to send them along!

[nd_deadhead]

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

I like this article a lot.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

Any advice on where I should direct her for more information?

Yes, I do. Here are some more "mainstream sites" with a anti circ message.

I suggest you start with these, and go to a stronger argument later, if needed. If you do not acknowledge her point of view first, and respect her ideas, your not going to get anywhere. (And I know how hard that can be when you know circumcision is not the right choice for an infant.)


http://www.askdrsears.com/html/1/T012000.asp
Bare basic facts site created by a well respected, mainstream "baby doctor" Includes a pro/con list on circumcision.

http://www.fitpregnancy.com/circumci...by/1144?page=1
VERY GOOD article by a mother who discusses the mental journey that led her to keep her son intact. I strongly suggest giving this to her. In many ways, this mother seems very rationally mainstream, and is something the woman you talking to could relate with.

I had a 3rd site, but I cant think of it at the moment. I hope these are helpful. They are not alienating to people who are still considering circ, so she will probably be much more accepting to the material.

[caitlinlea]

Thank all of you for your replies! It was bugging me so much not to say anything, especially when she was getting advice from other moms who have circumcised their babies (including one mom who told her how to very carefully clean the area by RETRACTING the foreskin if she decided not to circumcise!). So I had to say something. I decided to PM her though, and I listed a few of the sites you all recommended. I told her if she decides not to circ let me know so I can direct her to some good articles/instructions on how to care for an intact penis - in particular not to retract it!

Thanks again -- probably I could have been more direct with her; I tried to remain neutral and emphasized that I respect whatever decision she makes (yes, that is probably a lie ) I am still reeling from a couple of vaccine debates I've been involved lately and am tired of getting confrontational for the moment. All I can do when it comes down to it is make the decisions I believe to be right for my own son.

Thanks moms!
Caitlin

[perspective]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

I am still reeling from a couple of vaccine debates I've been involved lately and am tired of getting confrontational for the moment. All I can do when it comes down to it is make the decisions I believe to be right for my own son.

I disagree. Your tired of confrontational arguments because of the kind of arguments you end up having. You can be confrontational but you just have to keep your mind open to a real discussion on their thoughts and concerns (which includes telling yourself you might be wrong, and listening to their points.) Then it wont be a fight, but a calm exchange of ideas. And thats exactly the thing the one thing missing from circumcision discussions in America, most people dont calmly sit down and go over the facts.

[caitlinlea]

You are right. I often don't deal well with these types of situations. I think these discussions often turn into or imply personal attacks on another's decisions (at least this is how I have felt in my decision not to vaccinate, and also my decision to raise my son vegan -- the 2 things I get the most flak about). Lately I have realized that I need to be a lot less defensive and a lot more open-minded.

Thanks again for all the advice/support! I'll let you all know how she replies. THIXLE if she asks for more info I may PM you. Thanks!

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

You are right. I often don't deal well with these types of situations. I think these discussions often turn into or imply personal attacks on another's decisions (at least this is how I have felt in my decision not to vaccinate, and also my decision to raise my son vegan -- the 2 things I get the most flak about). Lately I have realized that I need to be a lot less defensive and a lot more open-minded.

Thanks again for all the advice/support! I'll let you all know how she replies. THIXLE if she asks for more info I may PM you. Thanks!

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/1/T012000.asp

Also ask what her specific concerns are. It makes it easier to target..

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

I don't want to step in and thrust my beliefs on her, especially if she decides to circumcise anyway I don't want it to be awkward between us.

Think ahead a couple of years. What would you say if she came to you and say "Why didn't you warn me?"

Think ahead 20 years and imagine her son coming to you and asking "You were in a position to protect me and you didn't say anything. Why didn't you say something?"

Will you have a viable answer?



Frank

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

Thanks for the reply. Any advice on where I should direct her for more information? The problem is every site/article I know of is against circumcision, which is frequently referred to as genital mutilation. Obviously I agree with this but I'm not sure that it strengthens my case to offer such biased material. Although, really I don't believe there is a single good reason to circumcise (other than religious beliefs, which are not an issue with her) so it's hard to find information in a pro/con format.

I can't think of a better place than right here! Any question she has can be answered and it will become abundantly clear that not circumcising is not unusual. Even if she never posts here, every question will be answered.


Frank

[caitlinlea]

Think ahead a couple of years. What would you say if she came to you and say "Why didn't you warn me?"

Think ahead 20 years and imagine her son coming to you and asking "You were in a position to protect me and you didn't say anything. Why didn't you say something?"

Will you have a viable answer?

These are questions I asked myself. I wonder though, how/where is the line drawn on respecting someone's opposing decision? I absolutely believe circumcision on infant boys is wrong. If my son decides when he is an adult that he wants to be circumcised, then fine. At least now he has the right to make that choice for himself and I have not robbed him of that. In any case, my belief is absolute and I feel strongly that I am "right" in this belief. But what of the many parents that do circumcise their boys? They honestly believe they are doing the best thing for them. I can't force someone into a decision they don't want to make and I think there is a point when I need to back off and respect their choice (or at least shut up about it and disagree quietly )

There is a grandmother on another thread I've followed that is upset because her daughter chose to follow the vaccine schedule for her granddaughter. This grandmother has been both criticized and praised for being so outspoken in her convictions that her granddaughter should not be vaccinated. Should she have backed off? She honestly believes there are reasons to be concerned about vaccinating and believes it is in the best interest of the child not to get vaxed. But the mom believes the opposite. Now IMO vaccines are a much grayer area than circumcision, but still, I believe that I cannot control the decisions others make, no matter how much research I give them or how convincing my argument. (I'm not trying to start a discussion on vaccines -- I'm just using this as an example where opinions/beliefs differ widely but the best interests of the child are always at heart)

I am only writing this because I struggle so much with how to be diplomatic about these issues. I am constantly getting lectures from all kinds of people about how raising my son vegan is going to cause him all kinds of problems and these people are genuinely concerned about his well-being. I am confident in my research that I can raise a very healthy vegan child and feel equally strongly about this. Should these people respect my decision, or should they forever give me grief over it?

Which brings me back to the original issue at hand -- how can I/do I respect my friend's, or any person's, decision to circumcise their child? Should I respect it? This is where I struggle.

Maybe I digress too much, but I am genuinely curious how many of you reconcile your differences with friends, family, etc.

Caitlin

PS: Frank, I also told her to check mothering.com for some great info and discussions. It's always been one of the best resources for me!

[perspective]

Well I can see why your experiences as a parent has lead you to question how far you should criticize what other parents do. But there is a difference. Raising your son as a vegan is a parental choice, every parent has to make these choices. You have to feed you kid, if you dont make him a vegan, he eats meat and then people could question you on that too. There is no way out of that. And like all children, when they get older they agree with some stuff, and disagree with others. (ie, your son could stay a vegan, but decide its important to vax)

Circumcision is not like that at all. This is not about saying uncut is better then cut (or vise versa). This is not about you making a choice between the two. He can do whatever he wants with his penis when he is of age. This is about protecting the rights of sons to have freedom and control of their bodies.

Your job is not to say a cut penis is bad. Your job is to explain that this has nothing to do with parental rights. Your job is to also dispel myths about the intact penis, so they understand that its perfectly healthy and very easy to clean. (And that they WONT be alienated in american male society in the slightest) All so they can feel comfortable and confident in the natural state of their sons body. Your only job is to champion human rights.

And this is how you know your on the right side of the issue. Your not saying one side is right, or one side is wrong. (like a person criticizing you for keeping your son vegan would). Your simply saying that these are choices left for the owners of those bodies, and it is not our place to even get involved in the discussion.

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

These are questions I asked myself. I wonder though, how/where is the line drawn on respecting someone's opposing decision?

I'll answer with a question. Ryleigh McWillis, Demetrius Maneker, Jake Holliday, Allen Erwin and Jeremie Johnson all died of their circumcisions. When was the last minute to stop advocating for them?

I am only writing this because I struggle so much with how to be diplomatic about these issues. I am constantly getting lectures from all kinds of people about how raising my son vegan is going to cause him all kinds of problems and these people are genuinely concerned about his well-being. I am confident in my research that I can raise a very healthy vegan child and feel equally strongly about this. Should these people respect my decision, or should they forever give me grief over it?

Is there any evidence that raising a child as a vegan will harm them? Forgive me but I don't know much about this. Really, all I know is that children require levels of cholesterol for proper brain development that would be unhealthy for adults.

Which brings me back to the original issue at hand -- how can I/do I respect my friend's, or any person's, decision to circumcise their child? Should I respect it? This is where I struggle.

I respect those who made the decision not knowing the issues but for those who have been exposed to the message and choose to reject it, they are out of my life forever. They are not welcome in my home and I will not visit them in theirs. I'll give you an idea of how strongly I feel about this. Several years ago, I was engaged to be married. The daughter of my fiancee was pregnant and when she learned she was expecting a boy, I tried to talk to her but she would hang up on me. (She lived about 5 hours away) My fiancee was giving me "lip service" indicating she was on my side of the issue. I told her that if her daughter circumcised the boy, she would not be welcome in my home. The boy was born and was circumcised. During the next 5 months, my fiancee and I argued heatedly and virtually all the time. I learned that my fiancee had been secretly supporting her daughter behind my back and ended the engagement 3 months before the wedding date. That's how strongly I feel about it.

Maybe I digress too much, but I am genuinely curious how many of you reconcile your differences with friends, family, etc.

I simply make no efforts to reconcile with them and reject their efforts.

PS: Frank, I also told her to check mothering.com for some great info and discussions. It's always been one of the best resources for me!

Personally, I think there is no better place.



Frank

[caitlinlea]

My friend thanked me for the information I sent her and said she will read through it and that she and her husband are still on the fence about the decision. We'll see what happens -- I will definitely keep trying. One of the other women who chose not to circumcise spoke up as well and I think that helped.

Frank/Perspective: I agree circumcision is genital mutilation and a blatant disregard for the rights of infant boys. This is an absolute IMO. The trouble is so many people still believe they are helping their sons in some way to avoid diseases or health problems later in life. Most mothers I know have circumcised their sons. I don't believe they are bad people in fact they are wonderful loving mothers in every other way. But I am secretly appalled at their choice and I often don't know how to handle my disapproval around them. It's not easy, nor do I want to, cut them out of my life.

Thanks for the replies and support. I am really glad I said something to her about this issue and I hope she leaves her son intact.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

My friend thanked me for the information I sent her and said she will read through it and that she and her husband are still on the fence about the decision. We'll see what happens -- I will definitely keep trying. One of the other women who chose not to circumcise spoke up as well and I think that helped.

Frank/Perspective: I agree circumcision is genital mutilation and a blatant disregard for the rights of infant boys. This is an absolute IMO. The trouble is so many people still believe they are helping their sons in some way to avoid diseases or health problems later in life. Most mothers I know have circumcised their sons. I don't believe they are bad people in fact they are wonderful loving mothers in every other way. But I am secretly appalled at their choice and I often don't know how to handle my disapproval around them. It's not easy, nor do I want to, cut them out of my life.

Thanks for the replies and support. I am really glad I said something to her about this issue and I hope she leaves her son intact.

caitlinlea - At least you stood up and said something. You're right the biggest problem we face is that people, for the most part, don't dig into the issue too deeply. That's why it is important that we try and correct the myths. It's not that they are bad, just misinformed. If possible see if there are specific issues that we could help resolve; it's always better when the information is targeted. Keep us posted and thanks for stepping in.

[caitlinlea]

When I replied I did ask her what her concerns were with not circumcising. Seems like it is just ingrained in her that that is what people are supposed to do. Her husband is circumcised and they are worried about their son wondering why he is different, and also the health "myths" for circumcising. I did address these concerns briefly but the links I sent her cover all of these issues and she conscientious about researching....she will read them and I hope make the right decision. I thought about sending her a link to the circ video but I haven't yet. I think my doing that would offend her. I know some of you will think that doesn't matter, and maybe it doesn't, but I think I need to give her space to do her research and come to the conclusion on her own. They are not scheduled to go in for almost 2 weeks. If need be I will strengthen my case more but for now I will see what happens.

Thanks,
Caitlin

[Microsoap]

Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking

Think ahead a couple of years. What would you say if she came to you and say "Why didn't you warn me?"

Think ahead 20 years and imagine her son coming to you and asking "You were in a position to protect me and you didn't say anything. Why didn't you say something?"

Will you have a viable answer?



Frank

I think what Frank said and THIS: What if her son comes to her as an adult or even teen and says? "Why did you do this to me??!!"

Circumcision is irreversible. He can always choose it for himself when he's an adult. If you do it against his will and he doesn't like it (which to us seems like something one wouldn't want to done to themselves), there's no going back.

[caitlinlea]

You are preaching to the choir! I agree with everything you all say. Look, I know this woman. If I tell her things like that and suggest she watch graphic videos of circumcising I will offend her and more importantly push her away and she will not listen to me at all. I have said many times that by not circumcising my son I am giving him a choice later. She knows this. I can only do so much and if I push hard enough all I'll accomplish is lose a friend and she'll make the decision to circumcise anyway. I am not trying to place more emphasis on my friendship over the boy's rights -- please don't misunderstand me. I am just trying to be the most effective I can be. I believe it is important to speak up about circumcision and I am doing that. It is hard though, I will admit, the possibility of losing friendships b/c people think you don't respect their decisions and feel that I am overstepping my boundaries. I guess I am choosing to walk a fine line.

Really, circumcision should just be made illegal. Then no one can do it!