Can it be animals actually think and feel?

[oatmeal]

I heard this story on NPR today which was fascinating
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1434359

but really not very suprising to me.

Monkeys have a sense of injustice? Just watch what happens when one of my dogs tries to go for the other dog's kibble!

Or what happens to an elephant calf when its mother is shot down on the veldt.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that animals think and feel? That they are conscious and intelligent?

I just don't get it.

[dado]

you're not alone. how anybody who has ever had a pet could think animals don't feel or hurt is beyond me.

[momto l&a]

Nursing Mother,
I so agree with you.

[Quirky]

Should we torture and kill animals for our enjoyment, on factory farms and in slaughterhouses, whether or not they can reason and think? Whether or not they have legal rights? Personally, I think Jeremy Bentham nailed it:

The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been withheld from them but by the hand of tyranny. . . a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day, or a week or even a month old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail? The question is not, can they reason? Nor can they talk? But, can they suffer? Why should the law refuse its protection to any sensitive being? The time will come when humanity will extend its mantle over everything which breathes...

from Principles of Morals and Legislation

Don't click here if you want to continue to believe that eating animals doesn't cause tremendous pain and suffering.

[owensmom]

Yeah Jane!

[oatmeal]

Thanks Jane.

It all comes down for me to what the guy in my sig has to say about this uniquely human ability to compartmentalize out morals. One set of morals for one group and another set for the "other" - whoever has the poor fortune of being subjugated.

It's too hard to break habits, to think about suffering, to come in direct contact with the barbaric suffering animals undergo in order for humans to farm and eat and wear them.

Just like we spend billions of dollars on war while humans suffer. It's all the same denial mechanism to me.

Denial is a powerful, powerful thing. Hitler knew how to use it well.

[Marlena]

Having worked on a farm (a small, family owned one, rather than a factory farm, but a farm nevertheless) on which animals were raised not only for dairy but also for slaughter, I understand the cruelty that is involved in the raising and killing of animals for meat. Even though we did not crowd our animals, fed them well, and gave them space to run (and in fact pastured our dairy herd in the spring and summer), at the end of the day you still have to take the animal's life in order to use it for meat.

Of course animals suffer. All living things suffer.

A question though: do any of you kill spiders? Slap at mosquitoes? Swat houseflies? Put out bait traps for cockroaches? Have you ever used a mousetrap for rodents in your attic or basement?

Do they not feel pain? Do they not want to live rather than die? I would frankly be shocked to discover that they do not feel pain, and have no drive to stay alive.

How far ought we to take humane treatment of all living things?

[mamabeard]

i can count on my hand the number of times i have intentionally killed an insect in the last several years.. and i felt tremendous guilt afterward. however, we can take this down to the microscopic level, and yeah, i'm sure i kill millions of inperceptible living things on a daily basis..

but, i still think it's important to act and live with the deepest sense of empathy possible, with regard to those things we actually have a choice about. i've been without meat for almost 7 years, i'm quite healthy, and know that it's not a necessity.. so for me there is no excuse, if there's even a chance the animals suffer (tho who can argue they don't??).. you know?

[dado]

there is an enormous amount of room between what happens in, say, a slaughterhouse and putting non-human creatures on the human level.

Originally posted by Nursing Mother
Of course animals think and feel. I think the agrument for me is, is when animals are put at the same level as human beings in means of importance, intelligence, emotions, and value.

[oatmeal]

Originally posted by Marlena


A question though: do any of you kill spiders? Slap at mosquitoes? Swat houseflies? Put out bait traps for cockroaches? Have you ever used a mousetrap for rodents in your attic or basement?

How far ought we to take humane treatment of all living things?

This is a completely unrelated arguement to the question of whether or not animals think feel or suffer.

Your question in order to be applicable would need to be, when is the last time we intentionally multiplied, totured, maimed and then sent spiders to their horrific deaths in order to feed/clothe ourselves when spider is a totally optional element of the human diet/wardrobe/furniture.

How far ought we take humane treatment?

To the LIMIT. ALL THE WAY.

The denial and attitude transmitted through the farming and slaughter of animals translates directly onto how humans treat each other.

Intentional disregard for life leads to oppression of everyone. The consciousness that allows it allows all unnecessary suffering.

[sadie_sabot]

When we numb ourselves to the suffering of other creatures, we numb ourselves to suffering, period. There is, i believe, a link between our cultural lack of compassion for animals and our cultural lack of compassion for people (which takes shape as racism, poverty, war, misogyny, child abuse, etc, etc, etc)

i don't think it's automatically immoral to kill animals or to eat meat, but i do think it is immoral to pretend they don't feel or suffer, and to be cruel, either directly and intentionally, or by neglect or omission.

[Marlena]

This is a completely unrelated arguement to the question of whether or not animals think feel or suffer.

Your question in order to be applicable would need to be, when is the last time we intentionally multiplied, totured, maimed and then sent spiders to their horrific deaths in order to feed/clothe ourselves when spider is a totally optional element of the human diet/wardrobe/furniture.

How far ought we take humane treatment?

To the LIMIT. ALL THE WAY.

I sense some defensiveness here.

If you're not ok with killing animals for food, then you ought never to kill ANY living thing. IMO there is little that is humane about farming, whether you're talking about a small family farm or a factory farm. While you can do various things to make their lives more reasonable while they're living them - IMO, steps that should in fact be taken - at the end of the day, in most cases, you must kill the animal (sheep, pigs, cattle...). And re dairy, you remove the calf from the mother almost immediately after birth. If the calf is a male, additionally, it is almost certainly destined for slaughter.

Most of us are not going to become vegans. I was a vegetarian, myself, for many years. I feel much better, physically, as an omnivore.

And, just by the by, when was the last time you saw lions or dogs or bears or orcas voluntarily renouncing the main source of their diet: animal protein? "Finding Nemo" doesn't count.

[Ilaria]

dado and Jane!