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used to feel homebirth was best... but not anymore - Page 6

post #101 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by catters View Post
There's a reason the number one cause of death for women of child bearing age ISN'T childbirth anymore.
No, there isn't "a reason". There are lots of reasons. Yes - OBs have saved lives. They've also cost lives. IMO, antibiotics have saved more lives in this area than anything else.

I've also looked at old records from...England, I think, and women started dying like flies when they started going to hospitals, instead of having their babies at home. Some wards lost 100%. That part always gets glossed over by the "OMG - women used to die in childbirth all the time" crowd.
post #102 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladybyrd View Post
I understand that your birth was traumatic; I've had a traumatic birth experience, myself. However, just because you feel that the only safety net is to be in a hospital doesn't make it so, and the statistics bear that out.



But again, just because you've changed your mind on the safety of homebirths doesn't mean that the actual safety of homebirths has changed. The only thing that has changed is your perspective. You're basing your opinion on some pretty powerful emotions, rather than basing them in facts.



If I have an emergency that my midwife can't handle, I'll be off to the hospital, no questions asked. That is what the hospital is there for.




Unfortunately, though, and this isn't meant as an attack, you aren't informing. It really amounts to scaremongering, because while you think you're providing information, your 'information' isn't based in fact - it's based completely off of fear.




I hope this doesn't offend you, but I cannot bear in mind what you're saying as I go through my life and/or my pregnancy, because the facts don't bear out what you're saying. You can disagree with the statistics and you can disagree with the studies that show the safety of homebirth, but when you do so, it's tantamount to sticking your head in the sand. I will base my childbearing decisions in fact, rather than out of fear of the "what if."

I truly hope you are able to find peace with your birth.
ITA. This is a great post.
post #103 of 246
I think applejuice is 100% right here.

Also I want to add that I wasn't even allowed to *photograph* my sister's birth of her last baby, despite the fact that she really really wanted me to and she knew it would be the last one ever ~ the nurse physically removed the camera and told me if I insisted on keeping it out / on I would have to leave the hospital. So ... yeah.

I think there is really a perception being put out there that hospitals will go along with the mother's wishes if only she'd express them ~~ but that's just not the case. I had an extremely traumatic birth experience with my 1st baby, in a hospital, because of their "protocol" and their "regulations" and sheer bullying... I mean, when you're a mother in extreme pain and you're the only one there, or your birth partner / support person is there but won't stand up for you, and five nurses and a dr are ALL telling you that you don't have a right to birth how you want, to refuse whatever it is they're telling you that you "need" ... it's darn near impossible to really make your wishes known and adhered to.
post #104 of 246
I couldn't read all of this because I'm pregnant and trying to avoid reading really negative birth stories.

While there are cases in which being in the hospital can save a life there are statistically more times in which being in the hospital creates the life threatening emergency.

I'll stick with homebirth.
post #105 of 246
Quote:
IMO, antibiotics have saved more lives in this area than anything else.
You are absolutely correct.

If one were to narrow down the things that have saved women in childbirth, it would be antibiotics and blood transfusions.

None of the monitoring, pain meds, labor inducing drugs, regional anesthetics, intravenous fluids, episiotomies, caesarean sections, confinement, forceps, vacuums, shaving, or enemas have helped more than simple cleanliness and fluid replacement to save women in labor. Handwashing helps also! Thank you, Dr. Semmelweis! He suggested that doctors do what midwives had done for centuries and his colleagues put him in an asylm where he died.

None of this improved mortality and morbidity has anything to do with being in a hospital.
post #106 of 246
This post seemed as if it was the attempting to process her traumatic birth, as she has every right to. however, the more you (OP) post, the more I am beginning to believe you are actually trying to convince other mothers that your view of hospital birth is not seriously flawed, which it is. I am glad you and your baby are doing ok..although im sorry you seem to be having PPD and are struggling w/ your birth...but please, unless you can address the issues that are being brought up here (which I don't see you doing), stop trying to convince others that we should be running to the hospital.

women are NOT allowed to control the hospital environment. women are not given many options...often birth plans are thrown out the window and disregarded for all kinds of nonsensical reasons.
post #107 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
No, there isn't "a reason". There are lots of reasons. Yes - OBs have saved lives. They've also cost lives. IMO, antibiotics have saved more lives in this area than anything else.

I've also looked at old records from...England, I think, and women started dying like flies when they started going to hospitals, instead of having their babies at home. Some wards lost 100%. That part always gets glossed over by the "OMG - women used to die in childbirth all the time" crowd.
really? I would love to see that information. I'm serious. I know that hospitals back in the day were extremely dirty. I'm not talking about hospitals 200 years ago because as of 1880 or so, childbirth was still the number one cause of death for women. Once they got the germ thing figured out, mortality rates plummeted. And like I said, modern medicine is NOT perfect. I certainly don't believe that. My husband (an MD, mind you) wanted a home birth before we found out we were having a breech baby who wouldn't turn and NO ONE would deliver him except my husband who was NOT comfortable with that role, so we had a section.
post #108 of 246
Thread Starter 
i'm afraid the facts do NOT say that homebirth is safer because (as i explained in an earlier post) such a study is impossible to do.

you would have to take a group of low risk pregnant women and randomly assign them to home with the same set up (same midwives, same everything or hospital (same hospital, same obs and nurses) . and that's a study noone can do.

i'm not going to get into the absolute accuracy of studies for the above reason and because these are not 'facts'. noone CAN prove that home or hospital is safer in the vast majority of cases, but i'm not talking about the vast majority of cases. i'm talking about sudden emergencies that can ONLY be taken care of in a hospital, emergencies which are NOT predictable and which can be fatal if not caught in time. and which might be fatal anyway.

you say i don't look at the facts - well there are no facts when it comes to birth, except that a baby will be born one way or the other.

the other fairly certain thing is that if you have something catastrophic happen to you and you bleed out, or your heart stops or your uterus ruptures with little warning, you will most likely have a bad outcome if you are at home.

i'm not talking about the relative safety, but about those deaths that could be preventable, if a women had been close to backup.

saying 'if i feel something is wrong i'll go to a hospital' sounds nice but you do NOT always have time sadly. you can be dead before you get there. saying 'i'll feel if something is wrong' also sounds nice. and i did feel something was wrong. and i do not KNOW if that was connected to accreta. it could just be a total coincidence that i had a painful labor. i have a hunch, yes, but hunches are not facts. women who suddenly collapse AFE have no warning. (of the few survivor stories (many survive but brain dead) some report a metallic taste in their mouth for a few *seconds* before they collapse.

wouldn't the possibility of something like that happening to you, with all the sadness that implies, make you feel more comfortable in the only place that can handle such an event? even if you have to fight with a nurse or get cut when you don't want to be.

those of us in earthquake zones often buy quake insurance, even though it's such a rare event. we don't rely on 'it isn't going to happen to me' because we just don't know.

please don't quote 'safety of homebirth' statistics at me. i've read all the studies and neither they nor the hospital is safer studies are relevant in this case nor as i said a the beginning of this post can they demonstrate that homebirth is safer. there are just too many confounders. i'm talking about sudden obstetric emergencies that kill you if you're out of a hospital.

at the end of the day we each decide for ourselves. i felt talking about my experience was useful and relevant.

and to be told 'homebirth is safer this study says so' is patronizing at best and irrelevant at least. i did read those studies you know. i did quote them at my husband (the skeptical doc) who actually designs healthcare studies himself and pointed out a million flaws in them (and the hospital-is-safer studies too.

when something bad happens, and you don't know if it's going to happen to you, wouldn't you rather have that (imperfect) but potentially lifesaving safety net?
post #109 of 246
Thread Starter 
where i live both videos and photos are allowed at births, except in the OR - and even that is negotiable for photos (with no flash)

i'm sure it isn't the same everywhere.
post #110 of 246
Quote:
you would have to take a group of low risk pregnant women and randomly assign them to home with the same set up (same midwives, same everything or hospital (same hospital, same obs and nurses) . and that's a study noone can do.
That study was done in Northern California by Dr. Lewis Mehl, M.D. and published in 1978. It showed lower morbidity for the home birth group simply because fewer interventions were available to them. The home birth group did better in every way. It was a very well done, scientifically contrived study.
post #111 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
wouldn't the possibility of something like that happening to you, with all the sadness that implies, make you feel more comfortable in the only place that can handle such an event? even if you have to fight with a nurse or get cut when you don't want to be.
1. You have mentioned death many many many times in this thread. When I was experiencing ppd with dd1, I thought about death CONSTANTLY. I was constantly terrified that I'd die, she'd die, my dh would die, my other kids would die. It was a huge red flag that I was experiencing ppd.

2. Honestly, NOTHING IS SAFE. By your standards, we should all be in a hospital RIGHT NOW, with IVs already started, because we could walk outside our front door and get hit by a car. By your standards, nobody should live in a small town, because their hospitals are less likely to be able to handle SERIOUS emergencies, and we should all live close to hospitals that are equipped to handle severe emergencies.

I've had a pph and needed a hospital transfer, and I still don't think it's the place to give birth. I could have DIED. I was bleeding profusely. Things were starting to get a little fuzzy. But it doesn't make homebirth safe, or hospital birth safer than homebirth.
post #112 of 246
Pannacotta, I am amazed by your strength and courage, both in what you went through and in having this conversation, but I cannot agree with many of your statements, or with your conclusions.

In particular, NO, it is not possible to go to a hospital and labor while they leave you alone.

There is no hospital I know of that will admit you on your mere word that you are in labor. They want to prove it to themselves. They want to attach you to monitors ("Here honey, lie down..."), and check your cervix, and wait, and check your cervix again. They want fifteen minutes of monitor tape showing contractions. They will not admit you without this. If you need a place to labor, you are at their mercy. (Bonus: I got a dithering resident who didn't want to admit me until the attending for the floor could see me. And the attending was busy delivering someone else's baby. I had to argue with her just to be able to *walk the L&D ward* instead of lying in the triage area.) They want to check the baby's heart rate. And your blood pressure. They want to separate you from your partner for just a minute! to ask if there's abuse in your relationship (which, for the record, I totally support them doing, but gosh is it an added stress to notice that they're shuffling your partner off to where? for why? when you feel like you need that person).

And then they want to parade an anesthesiologist by you to get signed consent forms in case you want an epidural later. (I got an idiot anesthesiologist who wanted me to sit down while he gave a lecture on the risks of epidural. It took that man twenty minutes to give that talk, talking for three minutes, waiting through a one minute contraction, and talking until the next one hit, but it was "hospital policy" that they do this.)

Funny, after four hours of labor in less than ideal circumstances, I *did* want the epidural. Which meant, much later, that I got to be the textbook example of why epidurals suck, and but for the rockstar attending obstetrician, I would have had a c-section, I'm sure. It took me five hours to push my son into the world, and for three of those, there was a doctor standing around telling me that if he wasn't out in 30 more minutes, we would have to reconsider surgery.

I didn't just blandly consent to everything - from flat on my back with an epi in my spine, I sent the doc who suggested pitocin scurrying in fear. I put the screws into the admitting resident until she got me a goldang room. I painstakingly re-explained our birth plan to the people who'd never gotten the paperwork, and reminded the doctors and nurses of relevant details while I labored, while I pushed, while I bled all over the delivery room (I had a hemorrhage I believe I never would have had at home).

I shouldn't have had to do any of it. It was a diversion of my energy and attention at a time when I had none of those things to spare. If ever I have another baby, I will do what it takes to stay out of the hospital. Hospitals aren't "just a safety net", and they probably never will be.
post #113 of 246
Thread Starter 
sure i have had problems coming to terms with the birth but that has nothing to do with how i'm addressing the issue now. i'm seeing things more clearly having been on both side of the table as it were.

i'm addressing ALL the questions thrown at me as far as time permits. send me a list of questions i'm not addressing and i'll try to answer them.

but i'm also meeting a wall of silence, of 'we don't want to consider anything different from what we believe' which i frankly didn't expect from MC.

i'm hearing the same statistics again and again (and they are worthless as i've pointed out since you can't design the definitive study unless you're in a totalitarian state!),

i'm hearing that 'if i bleed i'll go to the hospital' , (what if no time)

it's pretty odd to say that because i had a difficult birth (handled very well by the hospital surprisingly) i can't be coherently debating this.

at the end of the day if you want to HB then we are lucky to have the freedom to chose it, but my OP was to point out that please be *aware* by reading about a personal experience that there are some things you have a much greater chance of surviving in a hospital.

things that are not talked about much, things that are rare, but things that can change a family forever if they don't work out.

if you chose HB with a fully open brain, knowing why you chose this, knowing all the issues on the table, then it's a conscious choice.

but choosing HB because of 'studies that "show" HB is safer" or 'my midwife said we can transfer' or 'i feel it's the best for me' (those who were wrong on this aren't here to tell the tale) is another matter.

just think about what i'm saying, that's all i ask.

i'm going to stop now, this is getting upsetting as it's veered into attacks.
post #114 of 246
I just have to say that based on your conclusion, we should all find utopia. Why do people live in California if they know that an earthquake is bound to happen? Why do people rebuild homes many times over after repeated natural disasters? Life is full of choices and possibilities, some of them include death. I personally think that once a person has come to terms with the idea that death is going to happen and we don't know when, they will make good informed decisions in their lives.
post #115 of 246
I just want to say, pannacotta, thank you for posting your story. I think it is important to hear all angles. And it was courageous of you to post your view, knowing all the while that it would probably be disputed or even attacked here on MDC.

I love MDC, but sometimes I feel that people here are very eager to jump the gun on telling someone that their perception isn't right, if it doesn't go with the traditional MDC views.

I think that we should remember that the views that many MDCers have today (non-circ, non-vax, homebirth, etc.) were once considered extremist views. Moms who have these views I am sure resent people telling them that their choice is irresponsible, and jumping all over their backs. Just because on MDC these views seem to be more the norm, doesn't mean we should bash or poke at people who think differently.

My husband and I are TTC, and the way people on here talk about it, hospitals are the devil. It makes me feel like if I don't choose homebirth in the future I am a wuss, or am not doing what's best. I think every mom deserves to feel good about her birthing choice.

I am not sure of the message of my post, I am just hoping this post doesn't get ugly. I have seen others like it get shut down for this very reason. Peace, everyone, peace!!
post #116 of 246
Thread Starter 
interesting, i don't remember this one but will look it up when i get back.. thanks for citing it.
post #117 of 246
"but in balance i think the bad things that happen in hospitals are fewer and less likely to be fatal than the things a hospital can save you from. BUT ONLY if you are very well prepared with knowledge, support."

Well, I'm sorry you think that - you certainly have every reason to. I think that the maternal mortality risks are the same, the infant mortality risks are probably the same (with homebirth likely edging out hospital birth as safer, with singleton vertex births, but you're right, the stats aren't conclusive on that one), and the morbidity risks for mother and child are simply not comparable. Hospital are risky places to birth. I also think you are incredibly naive about what it takes to avoid the very real risks of being in the hospital. It really isn't a matter of being prepared enough, of having enough support. You can adjust the odds, but they'll still be against you.

And as you say below, you can't prove that your "in balance I think" is actually correct. I will take the risk of dying via something a hospital could have prevented and the much, much better likelihood that my baby will be safe and healthy over the risk that I will die via something a hospital caused and the much higher likelihood that I will experience trauma, pain, violation, and my baby will be traumatized, hurt, and/or damaged, and my future babies having a higher likelihood of death.

You haven't yet said anything that is new or would make me reconsider my support of homebirth, although you have very eloquently stated why women would very much feel it necessary to birth in the hospital, and I thank you for that window into fear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
i'm afraid the facts do NOT say that homebirth is safer because (as i explained in an earlier post) such a study is impossible to do.

you would have to take a group of low risk pregnant women and randomly assign them to home with the same set up (same midwives, same everything or hospital (same hospital, same obs and nurses) . and that's a study noone can do.

i'm not going to get into the absolute accuracy of studies for the above reason and because these are not 'facts'. noone CAN prove that home or hospital is safer in the vast majority of cases, but i'm not talking about the vast majority of cases. i'm talking about sudden emergencies that can ONLY be taken care of in a hospital, emergencies which are NOT predictable and which can be fatal if not caught in time. and which might be fatal anyway.

you say i don't look at the facts - well there are no facts when it comes to birth, except that a baby will be born one way or the other.

the other fairly certain thing is that if you have something catastrophic happen to you and you bleed out, or your heart stops or your uterus ruptures with little warning, you will most likely have a bad outcome if you are at home.

i'm not talking about the relative safety, but about those deaths that could be preventable, if a women had been close to backup.

saying 'if i feel something is wrong i'll go to a hospital' sounds nice but you do NOT always have time sadly. you can be dead before you get there. saying 'i'll feel if something is wrong' also sounds nice. and i did feel something was wrong. and i do not KNOW if that was connected to accreta. it could just be a total coincidence that i had a painful labor. i have a hunch, yes, but hunches are not facts. women who suddenly collapse AFE have no warning. (of the few survivor stories (many survive but brain dead) some report a metallic taste in their mouth for a few *seconds* before they collapse.

wouldn't the possibility of something like that happening to you, with all the sadness that implies, make you feel more comfortable in the only place that can handle such an event? even if you have to fight with a nurse or get cut when you don't want to be.

those of us in earthquake zones often buy quake insurance, even though it's such a rare event. we don't rely on 'it isn't going to happen to me' because we just don't know.

please don't quote 'safety of homebirth' statistics at me. i've read all the studies and neither they nor the hospital is safer studies are relevant in this case nor as i said a the beginning of this post can they demonstrate that homebirth is safer. there are just too many confounders. i'm talking about sudden obstetric emergencies that kill you if you're out of a hospital.

at the end of the day we each decide for ourselves. i felt talking about my experience was useful and relevant.

and to be told 'homebirth is safer this study says so' is patronizing at best and irrelevant at least. i did read those studies you know. i did quote them at my husband (the skeptical doc) who actually designs healthcare studies himself and pointed out a million flaws in them (and the hospital-is-safer studies too.

when something bad happens, and you don't know if it's going to happen to you, wouldn't you rather have that (imperfect) but potentially lifesaving safety net?
That safety net is an illusion, as many of us have stated. It's just as likely to kill you as it is to save you. It saved you. You are grateful. I am grateful, for whatever that's worth. Isn't that enough?
post #118 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post

just think about what i'm saying, that's all i ask.
I don't know a single homebirther who HASN'T heard, "I would have died if not for the hospital." This is not the first time, nor will it be the last, of a mom transferring for a potentially life-threatening complication and espousing the virtues of the hospital.

Women who choose homebirth do not make that choice in a vacuum (or on an island, whatever the analogy is).
post #119 of 246
Panacotta, I hope the day comes when you are able to come to peace about your experience.

Having been through severe PPD myself, I know just how illogical it can make a person. When you come through the other side, it's amazing. Best of luck to you.
post #120 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post

i'm hearing that 'if i bleed i'll go to the hospital' , (what if no time)


i'm going to stop now, this is getting upsetting as it's veered into attacks.
Like I mentioned, I had a bad pph with my first that was not responsive to drugs and required a D&C, so I did a lot of research into causes, prevention, etc of pph. So it is so unbelievably small of a risk to bleed out with no time and no symptoms and no known causes that I could not find a single instance of this happening in a developed country in recent memory. Most causes of pph can be seen coming (mine was uterine atony after a long labour) and most midwives I know will not hesitate to transfer at excessive bleeding. Your scare tactics are not backed up by research and are obfuscating your argument.

No one has attacked you. Disagreement does not equal attacks.
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