used to feel homebirth was best... but not anymore - Page 11

[Ixcuina]

Originally Posted by thefragile7393

Haven't studies been linked in this thread already? Or did I miss something?

There are no studies that show homebirth to be "perfectly safe".

And there are no studies showing that "the hospitals cause more deaths and complications then they prevent."

I know some of us would like to believe this. But, that does not make it true.

[barefootpoetry]

Originally Posted by Ixcuina

And are the studies that have been done so far lacking and the data difficult to parse? Absolutely!

What makes them lacking? Honestly, I'm curious. It seems odd that one would demand proof and then when such proof is provided say that it's not good enough, so if there are flaws in the numerous studies provided in this thread, I'd like to know what they are so I can further educate myself.

[Ixcuina]

Originally Posted by barefootpoetry

What makes them lacking? Honestly, I'm curious. It seems odd that one would demand proof and then when such proof is provided say that it's not good enough, so if there are flaws in the numerous studies provided in this thread, I'd like to know what they are so I can further educate myself.

Hi barefootpoetry,

I am about to make a grocery run and move on to dinner demands

But, I will get back to you later. For now, understand that I am saying (and I am not the only one) that the studies that have been done so far comparing homebirth to hospital birth all have a certain amount of issues with them (understandable, because it is difficult to compare 'apples to oranges' but it is possible to be done in a reasonable way).

So, I have not "demanded proof" only to get it and then say it is not good enough. My "demand" for proof was more of a rhetorical statement. I know that there is no "proof" that homebirth is "perfectly safe" or proof for the other comments I have pointed out. I think it is important to not throw out statements like that willy-nilly. It doesn't help "the cause".

[barefootpoetry]

Originally Posted by Ixcuina

Hi barefootpoetry,

I am about to make a grocery run and move on to dinner demands

But, I will get back to you later. For now, understand that I am saying (and I am not the only one) that the studies that have been done so far comparing homebirth to hospital birth all have a certain amount of issues with them (understandable, because it is difficult to compare 'apples to oranges' but it is possible to be done in a reasonable way).

So, I have not "demanded proof" only to get it and then say it is not good enough. My "demand" for proof was more of a rhetorical statement. I know that there is no "proof" that homebirth is "perfectly safe" or proof for the other comments I have pointed out. I think it is important to not throw out statements like that willy-nilly. It doesn't help "the cause".

Understood. I'm sure most of us would agree that NOTHING in life is "perfectly safe," especially birth, and yes, you are right in saying that there is no study that says that. However, I have read a good deal of them that DO say it is equally safe, if not marginally safer, than hospital birth for low-risk women. Perhaps that is what other posters here are meaning, and are just getting a little carried away with their wording?

I look forward to your views on the studies! I'm always eager to learn something new.

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by Ixcuina

I have no problem with homebirth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has never given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.

I have no problem with hospital birth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.

[applejuice]

Home birth is not completely safe.

Hospital birth is not completely safe.

Human childbirth has its own inherent risks.

It simply comes down to educating a woman about her choices and allowing her to make take the calculated risks in the location she is most comfortable and chooses to birth in.

[almadianna]

coming in here telling us how we are wrong without proving your side is really going to convince nobody.

[ananas]

Originally Posted by tireesix

As far as I am concerned, I believe the following:

Some mums are better off at hospital, even if low risk, because their fear will cause problems with the birth and for the same reason, some mums will be better off at home. I cannot imagine (well, actually, having done it I can) birthing somewhere that causes you fear.

Very well said, and great point. That's exactly why I could never birth in a hospital- I am deathly afraid of the idea. Some women are deathly afraid of homebirth...that's not a bad thing, it's how they feel. It's good to be educated on both sides, though.

Originally Posted by aprilgurlie

I have no beef with any of you here. I would just love to see MDC a little more open to differing opinions, as I said in an earlier post. Let us tread lightly with our words.

So, should we start being supportive of circumcision? Start encouraging mamas to not bother with breastfeeding, formula is "just as good"? Should we encourage mamas to CIO and spank their children?

This forum has a theme and a purpose. It is to support and encourage mothers who choose natural ways of parenting their children. There's plenty of opinions within that spectrum without bringing other topics in. In general, this community as a whole is more supportive, and agrees more with, of homebirths than hospital births. The community shouldn't have to change their opinions and beliefs to welcome other ideas and beliefs that don't really mesh with MDC.

Originally Posted by Ixcuina

This is absolutely NOT true. But, it is often the "truth" that gets spoken. It is unfortunate. Why are we so afraid of the truth?

I agree, why are you so afraid of the truth? You seem to be picking and choosing "truths" so you can believe what you want.

Originally Posted by the_lissa

I could handle it if something happened to the baby or I at home (well not really, but be more at peace with it) than if something happened to the baby or I at a hospital.

My thoughts exactly- I'm glad someone else voiced them as well.

[Ixcuina]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

I have no problem with hospital birth (as stated earlier, being a woman who has given birth in a hospital), but I do have a problem with people deluding themselves as to the the "perfect safety" of it.

And I would have a problem with that too. You get that, right?

There is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" birth choice.

[Ixcuina]

Originally Posted by ananas

I agree, why are you so afraid of the truth? You seem to be picking and choosing "truths" so you can believe what you want.

You don't seem to understand what I am saying. What truth am I afraid of exactly? Did you really read my previous posts? I have had 2 out-of-hospital births. I have taught childbirth classes to women planning homebirths for many years. I have the support and friendship of all the local midwives. Some of them have attended my classes.

I only say these things to point out that I am far from an "anti-homebirth" person or a "pro-hospital" person.

I would just prefer that those of us who birth at home do so knowing full well what the risks specific to that choice are.

This should not be cause for an uproar. Or an attack.

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by Ixcuina

And I would have a problem with that too. You get that, right?

There is no such thing as a "perfectly safe" birth choice.

Yep. Then we agree!

I don't know anyone who thinks that birth is ever perfectly safe. People are just choosing what is less risky for them, most comfortable for them. Well, ideally, that is.

[donutmolly]

Just wanted to send a post to the OP after reading this entire thread... hope you're still reading although it may be too difficult for you to post.

I get what you're saying... you did the research, planned a homebirth, and then something terrible happened. It makes it a lot different when the statistic is YOU, not some woman somewhere who is just a number. And maybe part of your reason for posting here was to say: "hey ladies, it could've been me, and it could be you!" I want to validate your feelings as totally reasonable.

I also want to say that I do agree with you (and Ixcuina) that there are certain possible complications that could come out of nowhere that could be dealt with at a hospital, and a mother or baby's life could be saved, that could not be dealt with at home resulting in death for mom or baby.

However... I think what many are trying to say is that that particular real risk is balanced for many by the possiblity (however small or large) that a hospital could actually cause an otherwise normal birth to become complicated and result in trauma, surgery, or death for either mom or baby.

Since in either case of home or hospital birth both maternal and baby mortality is so low (one of the reasons it is difficult to come up with studies that compare the risks of both), many women (particularly those on MDC) decide that the risk of death or complication that can't be well dealt with at home or by transfer is less than the likelihood of the hospital causing complications that require surgery, or other negative consequences.

Many of us who make that decision do rely on studies (many of them specifically about the risks of hospital births -- injuries, surgeries, infections), which seem far off and irrelevant when you have experienced something very traumatic.

My guess is that in processing your birth you have a great desire to warn others so that no one will have to go through what you went through, or potentially an even worse situation. And that is a wonderful, tremendously positive desire!

I think what many have tried to point out is that basing our birth choices on your experience alone is not logical. That would be like me suggesting you should really try to stay home next time because I had 2 amazing homebirths with no adverse events whatsoever. As someone who also suffered from PTSD (not from birth) -- I want to encourage you to continue to explore and work through your feelings. They are absolutely real, and worthwhile. Maybe MDC can be one of the places where you can continue in this journey of healing....

I think you're very brave for coming and posting in a place where you knew you would not be agreed with, thanks for helping us all process our birth choices a little more.

There was an earlier thread (oh, how many months ago? I'm lousy at the search feature, maybe someone can help me out?) about whether people were choosing to homebirth because of the negatives of the hospital, or if there was something inherently positive about homebirth. There were many well thought out responses that are wothwhile revisiting.

I think we can all agree that many many hospitals need to make changes to better serve birthing women. And that women should be truly free to choose whether to birth at home or in a hospital.

Blessings

[stacyann21]

Excellent post donutmolly! That's all

[nashvillemidwife]

I published this today: http://www.nashvillemidwife.com/safety.html

I tried to read the text of all the studies and point out the weaknesses. Despite knowing the body of research, I was surprised that in the end I only had 3 studies that showed hospitals to be safer. Of course one was the Washington study. None of them were applicable to low risk women who planned their home births with trained attendants. Those 3 studies are contrasted with 35 showing same or better outcomes for home births.

Please let me know if you know of something I've left out. This is a work in progress.

[barefootpoetry]

Originally Posted by nashvillemidwife

I published this today: http://www.nashvillemidwife.com/safety.html

I tried to read the text of all the studies and point out the weaknesses. Despite knowing the body of research, I was surprised that in the end I only had 3 studies that showed hospitals to be safer. Of course one was the Washington study. None of them were applicable to low risk women who planned their home births with trained attendants. Those 3 studies are contrasted with 35 showing same or better outcomes for home births.

Please let me know if you know of something I've left out. This is a work in progress.

WOW! That's a LOT of info, thanks! I saw a few studies in there that I haven't come across before. Thank you so much for putting those all in one place and summarizing them neutrally. Very helpful, I'm adding it to my bookmarks.

[nashvillemidwife]

Thanks. I've been working on this for 4 years!

[barefootpoetry]

Originally Posted by nashvillemidwife

Thanks. I've been working on this for 4 years!

And it shows!

I am glad you included the Australian study too. I've always wondered about that one, as most countries outside of the U.S. usually have such good birth outcomes.

[A_Random_Phrase]

I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been said, but it sounds like your instincts were telling you to go to the hospital. You listened and thus you were saved. I think the number one "rule" is to listen to your soul. Good job!

[Novella]

Originally Posted by pannacotta

. . . those of us in earthquake zones often buy quake insurance, even though it's such a rare event. we don't rely on 'it isn't going to happen to me' because we just don't know.

. . . when something bad happens, and you don't know if it's going to happen to you, wouldn't you rather have that (imperfect) but potentially lifesaving safety net?

I guess I'm not seeing your very own analogy the way you are seeing it. In my assessment, suggesting that all women are better off birthing in hospital (or in that imaginary/impossible intervention-free birth centre attached to a hospital) is like saying that buying earthquake insurance isn't "good enough". No, no! To be properly safe, everybody should be changing locations - moving out of earthquake zones, possibly taking up residence near emergency services so that help (if required) will be speedily available.

Similarly, I know that by living in a small town (ie. hours and hours away from a major trauma facility) I worsen my chances of surviving a serious heart attack, devastating car accident, etc. But I'm weighing "possible" versus "likely" and throwing in some "definite" considerations about how moving to a major city would change my life - just like a homebirther comparing her home and a hospital.

Originally Posted by ThreeBeans

I think the OP is coming from a place of fear, depression, and grief and I hope she heals soon.

:

Hugs to you, Original Poster. It sounds like you've been traveling a very anxious and stressful journey in your processing of the health complications that surrounded your child's birth.

[barefootpoetry]

Ixcuina, where'd you go? I've been waiting for you to get back to me about the flaws in the studies. I'd hate to have been citing them for all this time if they are not sound.