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Unschoolers - please tell me your "rules" - Page 2

post #21 of 61
Thank you ladies for the links & info

I am starting to unschool (you know what I mean)my 4 year old dd-I have 2 older boys in public school-these issues brought up here on lessons hit home with me also-
we have been driving to martial arts classes off & on for 3 years now -driving one way 15 miles -not easy with a smaller child in tow -
then there is the piano-well, my 15 year old loves it -we splurged & got him a Yamaha -he helped pay 2-300 of it -I lost count -

Lessons are needed I am sure -HE PLAYS BY EAR _so he can learn to read music,etc
but I am in the thinking that if he does not ask -ie beg for lessons should I force -coerce -etc lessons on him ?? I am answering my self as I write -

Anyway thanks !
post #22 of 61
Jazmommie, I think there's a middle ground between (a) waiting until he begs for lessons and (b) forcing him to take them. You could express a willingness to support him in lessons if he wants, you could offer to help him find a suitable teacher, you could gently make him aware of what assistance lessons might offer him, you could give him the opportunity to observe the results of good teaching by attending a student performance.

That being said, it's *not* necessarily true that he needs lessons to learn to read music, or that he needs to learn to read music at all, depending on what type of music he's interested in.

And if he does want lessons, you need to find a teacher who is willing to meet him where he's at and guide him forward from there. Some traditional teachers might see a glaring technical flaw and insist on remediating that first by going back to square one and then filling in all the gaps through technical study of scales and exercises. Taking on a self-taught or non-traditionally taught student requires a lot of creativity, flexibility and diplomacy.

Good luck!

Miranda
post #23 of 61
Cassidy, I understand your frustration with children making a mess of the house and you feeling like you are the only one who cares enough to pick it up. It is something I struggle with also and having a toddler in the house who really doesn't understand that mommy doesn't just love to pick up after him, doesn't help matters!

The things that I have found that DO NOT HELP, are:
Yelling,
Nagging,
Threatening,
Taking away privileges,
bribing,
forcing,
Telling them that it is their mess, so they have to clean it up. (This one backfires as they then refuse to do anything that they don't think they caused....like picking up the toddler's toys, cleaning the bathroom, or washing dishes.)

The things that have been successful in the long run are:
-Getting the kids to understand my point of view about working together to pick up the house.
-Explaining what needs to be done before we can do something they really want to do, such as building a tent in the living room, doing an art project, or going to the park.
-Helping them to understand the concequences of not doing something. (For example, if you do not feed the pets they will be hungry and possibly get sick. If you do not clear off the table we have no where to eat, or do a project. If you don't put your clothes away or in the hamper, they won't get washed and you wont' have anything to wear. If you don't do dishes, you have nothing to eat on. If you don't clear the sofa you have no where to sit.)

These things take time for children (and adults) to internalize, but are values and habits that will serve them well all their lives. I think if we can simply teach (or impart) these kinds of things to our children they will do well in life and the academic learning will naturally happen.
post #24 of 61
moominmamma, I agree that there is a certian amount of respect that applies when you are seeking instruction from someone else, regardless of if you are paying them or not. My children understand this before they become involved with lessons or join a sports team. On the other hand, if it turns out that this isn't what they thought it would be or just isn't working out for some reason, I would not force them to follow through and finish the season or session of lessons. I might encourage them by explaining the virtues of finishing what you start, or persevering through hardship, etc. but ultimately I respect their ability to know their own feelings on a subject and make educated decisions.
post #25 of 61
Cassidy, I don't have any brilliant suggestions. I just wanted to say that "I hear you" when you're talking about "dump-and-run" play and the endless creativity kids can tap into when it comes to creating mess out of nothing... furniture sculpture, waterplay on the bathroom floor with shampoo bottles and soapdishes, dress-up with daddy's clothes, towels, quilts and clothespins, imaginative play installations with castles made from stacks of books and characters that are kitchen implements....

Miranda
post #26 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by Cassidy
And Dar, my kids aren''t "deschooling." They have never been to day care, preschool, kindergarten, or elementary school. Any issues they have, they have gotten from living with us. What a scary thought....
Were you unschooling all along? You said you were "radical unschoolers last year", which I took to mean that you were other than radical unschoolers other years. School is a mindset, not just a place...

If you were unschooling all along and then something suddenly changed, I would want to look into what was different last year than all the (nine?) previous years....

Dar
post #27 of 61
Thread Starter 
Boy, I'm glad I asked the original question. These posts have given me a lot of things to think about.

This is slightly nit-picky, but a valid point about music lessons: some very good teachers will not continue with students who do not practice. Our violin teacher reviews the performance of each student periodically. If you're brilliant and you don't practice, you don't get to continue. If you're totally untalented, but you practice like mad, you still don't get to continue. She doesn't waste her time with people who aren't putting much into the process. So much for the customer always being right!
post #28 of 61
Well Cassidy, I appreciate the peek into your world... you are living all my fears for the future. The only thing I can think of is... if you won't take them to the store in dirty/smelly clothes or naked, I guess you can't go to the store, and I guess there's no food, and when they get hungry enough or tired of eating whatever you find in the back of the freezer, maybe they'll use the hamper.

Isn't that a natural consequence? Am I taking the non-coercive non-punishing thing too far? I doubt a battle of wills would do anyone much good. I don't know.
post #29 of 61
Cassidy, picking up on dubylyu's "natural consequences of not picking up dirty clothes" subthread above, I think this is a place where creative, co-operative problem-solving plays a role. You could get together with the kids at a "meeting" (i.e. a non-emotionally-charged time devoted to discussing any family issues) and explain "the laundry problem" from your perspective.

eg. "You don't bother picking up your clothes and putting them in the hamper, so they don't get washed, because I don't know which ones are dirty, and I don't have the time to pick up your clothes anyway. So you don't have clean clothes, and it's starting to limit where we can go. When we need milk, or to go to the post office, you can't find any clean clothes, so we have to stay home. Can you think of anything that would help this problem?"

You might have to offer some suggestions of your own to get the ball rolling...

We could cancel swimming lessons and violin lessons and use the money to buy lots more clothes so there would always be some clean ones.
We could get two extra laundry baskets and leave them in your rooms to toss clothes into.
You could do the dishes after supper so that I'd have time to pick up your clothes.

... and so on.

The exhausting thing is that this process has to be repeated for every single "issue", from kids using too much shampoo to the Lego problem to the juice spills to the violin practising to the caps left of the felt pens to the cheese left on the counter to the dishes not bused to the kitchen and the lights left on. And even if you find a solution for something, commitment and consistency are likely to wane after a time and the issue will need to be revisited.

Logically it should get easier as the principles of co-operative house-management are consistently applied. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not there yet, though I do see glimmers of hope now and then.

I really think that non-coercive parenting is best suited to only children families, or those with widely-spaced children. <sigh>

Miranda
post #30 of 61
Quote:
I really think that non-coercive parenting is best suited to only children families, or those with widely-spaced children. <sigh>
moominmamma, I think you make a good point here. When there are several people in a houshold, tribe, community, etc., ultimately someone has to take the lead and others follow.

I have never found that my children objected to mommy being the one that leads, perhaps if they did I would have to re-think how we do things.

In my experience politeness goes a long way. If I am rushed and yapping out orders to do this and that, no one seems to hear me and nothing gets done. On the other hand I find that when I politely ask, they will more than likely do the task in a somewhat reasonable fashion. When they know that I am counting on them to get such and such done, they tend to want to do it because they don't want to let me down. Now when it comes to cleaning their room, they tend to think that if they don't mind the mess there is no rush to do something about it. I've learned to lessen my expectations in areas like that.
post #31 of 61
Quote:
School is a mindset, not just a place...
This is such an important point Dar.

Last night my 9 yo dd said to me "mama I need to do math every day and you need to get me books for every subject...That is how you are suppose to do it." She had spent the day with her homeschooled friend on sunday, so I assume this was coming from that very structured school-at-home enviroment. It seems that we know a lot of homeschoolers, but few unschoolers, and my young children often don't understand the philosophy difference, but simply think that I'm being lazy.

This is so frustrating, because of all things I want to pass on to my children, an unschooling mindset is right up there at the top. Just when I think they have "got it" something like this pops up out of the blue.
post #32 of 61
I agree that non-coercive parenting "works" much better (and easier) when there is only one child. Only one of my kids has the laundry issue. She already has a laundry basket in her room to put the clothes into, she just doesn't want to use it (or the cute hamper she had before, or anything else we have thought of). I can't justify the other four members of the family not eating well or the other two kids not going to places they enjoy because this one refuses to deal with her laundry before it becomes a problem for everyone. Where does that leave us? Since I don't know anyone who is home during the day who could stay with her while I take the others out, it leaves me doing last minute laundry (at least for now). I find this is a common problem here, however. One child will make things difficult or refuse to co-operate and many others are affected; how to handle this can be really difficult. As we all know, one child who really doesn't want to be somewhere/do something can make a trip truly miserable for everyone else. Past threads addressing this topic have had people say that you shouldn't "make" your kids go places/do things they don't want to do. Well, I must admit I am on the fence about that. Sure, if I can arrange to get a sitter I trust at a time that is convenient I am happy to run errands and leave the kids at home. However, when this is not possible, I don't think the errands should simply be left undone. We all do things sometimes that we don't want or like to do because they need to be done or because someone else's happiness is important to us. Contrary to popular belief, I don't *enjoy* going to the grocery store. What a shock! I go because we all like to eat, and for various reasons, the shopping is my job. Yes, you could argue that the shopping is not the kids' job, so they shouldn't have to go. Well, that's why I am happy to do it without them if possible. At the same time, the kids do eat the food (well, sort of) and have the benefit/luxury/joy of being at home during the day instead of at school. So, since they "get something out of" my inability to go while they are all away from home all day, and they reap the benefits of the trip, is it really too much to ask for them to "get on board," go to the store without too much whining, and co-operate so we can get in, get out, and move on to more exciting things? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think this is unreasonable.

I think there are parallels to the "educational concerns" that have been mentioned within the unschooling lifestyle. Dar asked about our unschooling status before last year. Yes, we have always unschooled. I guess I used the term "radical unschooling" when referring to last year because it was our first "official" year. The first year of flying in the face of "you should be doing/learning X, Y, and Z this year." What was different last year, you ask. Well, lots. Our oldest is 7-1/2 and her younger sister (4-1/2) has always been very whiny, irritable, and unpredicatable. It turns out she has a lot of food allergies we didn't know about. Also, a baby brother (2-1/2) became a toddler who wants to be included in everything. So, lots of the fun "unschooling"-type things we used to do a lot of were curtailed because taking an explosive middle child and a toddler who screamed in the car (you remember that stage...) was just way too overwhelming. Also, our family was hit hard last winter in terms of cold and flu. Someone was constantly sick. During this extended time at home, we did lots of reading, and arts & crafts, and played games, but my oldest loves the zoo, aquarium, and museums, places we just really couldn't get to or manage at that time. So, I think this is why ahe thought we weren't "doing anything," even though she leared how to read and do basic math, and lots of geography during this time.

Now, we are out and about again, although we are now constrained (somewhat) by time (lessons and group activites). I love to read Dar's posts because she seems so comfortable with the life she is sharing with Rain. It sounds like they really enjoy each other's company and follow their interest -- their own, and each others. At the same time, these posts sometimes make me a little sad, because I remember when my oldest was still an only, and we shared this sort of comraderie. Our unschoolng lifestyle was very free and easy -- we could go to the zoo and spend an hour watching the gorillas, read every sign at each exhibit, and skip the insects. Now, someone has to pee after 10 min. with the gorillas, the 4-1/2 year old doesn't want me to read the signs, and ds loves the bugs. Everyone can't have everything they want all the time. Once there is more than one, it just isn't possible. the grocery store used to be a place where we used the scales and talked about the produce, all the things unschoolers like to say "count" as part of their "curriculum" or "schooling." Well, with three in tow the goal is simply to get in, get some food, and get out before someone melts down or hurts himself/herself or another shopper. not exactly the sort of "quality time" it once was.

i think it was Barbara who mentioned the idea of leading. I see my role in that way as well. Unfortunately, my oldest does not want to be led. Her issue isn't with following, it is really fighting against being led. She knows the laundry needs to be done, the house needs to be picked up, and the food must be shopped for. I don't even think she minds doing it; she just doesn't like being told it needs to be done. Unfortunately, she has not yet reached an awareness that drives her to do it before I have to mention it. I think part of her problem with this is that she spend so many years, even though she was quite young, making "joint" decisions with me -- the zoo or the aquarium? the monkeys of the zebras? lunch now or later? And she doesn't like (maybe even resents) that she doesn't have as much control as she used to. Unfortunately, once there are four or five people affected by each and every decision, someone has to have the job of saying, "hey, guys, this is it." Lucky me...

Anyway, sorry this is so long. I have done a lot of thinking about this, and it is something we struggle with on a daily basis, in one form or another. I guess I also want to take a minute to say that our kids get along with each other really well and I love each of them so much. I am glad we chose to have more than one child (I am an only child myself) and would consider even more. At the same time, I am not oblivious to how things have changed with the addition of each new person and I wonder how to mesh my philosophy of how best to raise*a* child with the task of raising three.
post #33 of 61
It seems to me that one possible way of dealing with the laundry/grocery store issue is to simply leave your oldest DD at home for the hour or so it takes to go to the store. You of course have to be the judge of whether she's ready to be home alone for that period of time, but with the 7 year olds I've known in recent years, this isn't unreasonable for an hour or two.

When it comes to things like the zoo, it is important that everyone feel they got something out of the trip. So how about enlist the eldest's help in getting what she wants by making sure the younger ones get what they want, too? Maybe 10 min. with the gorillas now and 10 more later, with the bug house in between (but not more than 10 minutes there, either, to be fair). If the 4 year old doesn't want you to read the signs, maybe you could compromise by just reading certain ones, or just the main headings...

Making sure everyone gets something out of the trip by involving all of them in the decision making just as your DD used to when it was just the two of you will get them more accustomed to consensus--which has a different feel to it than mommy-lead.

The consensus/meetings method suggested by others strikes me as an excellent idea. Who knows, your 4yo may come up with a brilliant solution to her sister's laundry issue.

Does your eldest DD help with the laundry? She's certainly old enough to sort colors from whites, measure detergent, transfer clothes from washer to dryer, fold towels even if she hasn't got the hang of folding her own clothes...

Perhaps you could incorporate a five minute laundry pickup in your daily routine? Make a game out of it, everyone goes through and does a quick floor-to-hamper laundry toss before breakfast. Get a timer and make a race game out of it. The old Huck Finn fence painting trick can work wonders. Make it fun and it will be.
post #34 of 61
My kids like to help out when they think they are helping me and doing something with me-- not when I am demanding something of them and I'm not involved.

I often start my requests with "Could you please help me with...?"

Yes, I still get declarations of "I'm just too tired to do that," (complete with laying on the floor and yawning), or out right "NO! I don't want to!" But all in all this approach works better than a chore chart or carrying on with what I'm doing while I yell out commands.

Very very occassionally threatening to restrict certain activities or take away things that aren't put away if the work doesn't get done gets results, but only if we don't use it very often. My kids like being at home and like playing with bedding and etc as someone else mentioned.

We operate on consequence of actions, too -- if something gets broken, lost, etc because of neglect (in the case of toys) we don't replace it.

I guess this thread was about unschooling rules...we just have simple household rules -- everyone helps, everyone is responsible for their own things -- we don't have a TV, but we do have a computer and time on that is limited and only used on bad weather days.

As for lessons: the kids are free to try anything and give it up when they lose interest -- we haven't had to deal with music yet, but it's coming up, so it's been interesting to read these posts.
post #35 of 61
Thread Starter 
Okay, folks, I need you to tell me how old your children are because I am getting a distinct sense that families with very young children find it easier to have fewer rules and families with older children need a few so that everyone knows what to expect.
post #36 of 61
My own kids are pretty young still. My eldest isn't quite 10. However, when it comes to music, she's playing her instruments at the level of kids several years older, so what she needs to do in order to maintain her skills, or progress, or hold up her end in ensembles or orchestras is fairly onerous for a kid so young.

I should make the point that my kids could quit their music lessons in a heartbeat if they lost interest. But they love their teachers, their lessons, their group classes and performances and workshops and orchestras. It's just the practising they don't like.

Miranda

(listening to a Lemoine Study in A-flat major right now, courtesy of Erin, who tonight started practising on her own without complaint and without a reminder, so it's not all like pulling teeth)
post #37 of 61
Quote:
Originally posted by bestjob
Okay, folks, I need you to tell me how old your children are because I am getting a distinct sense that families with very young children find it easier to have fewer rules and families with older children need a few so that everyone knows what to expect.
12, 8 and 3. We have few rules, and I'm having a hard time imagining that we'd need to make more as they get older.

Someone else mentioned that rules seemed dependent on the number of children one has. I'm thinking that, rather than the number of children or the ages of the children, parenting style might just be the deciding factor.
post #38 of 61
Quote:
I'm thinking that, rather than the number of children or the ages of the children, parenting style might just be the deciding factor.
I'm with you Joan!

As I said before we don't really have rules, but we do have expectations. Things like being considerate of others, not hurting people or animals either physically or verbally, watching out for your siblings and helping with the things that need to be done.

My children at home are 7, 9, 13 and 15. We haven't really added any rules as they have grown.
post #39 of 61
I'm sure the number of rules required has to do with parenting style more than kids' ages, but I also think it has to do with the temperment, number and spacing of your kids. My middle two kids respond to expectations and examples rather than rules. They will (at least some of the time) pick up around the house if I ask or if I launch into it myself and mention that we could work together if they like. They seem to "get" consequences like "mom will have more time for things like hikes and library trips if we help".

On the other hand, my eldest is stubborn and intense with some very quirky intellectual and emotional traits. She easily gets locked into one activity to the exclusion of all others. She gets pretty much the same expectations and examples of her siblings and yet she has almost never lifted a finger to help around the house. She's also, despite plenty of modelling and absolutely no insistence or coercion, has never said "thank you" or "I'm sorry" in her life. She knows she would feel better about herself if she helped and used polite manners. She knows I would feel happier. She knows her home would be a nicer place to live. She knows we'd all get along better. Yet when it comes to actually doing so, it's as if she'd be mortified to draw approval for doing any of this. I have no idea where this comes from. Sometimes I think that parenting by example and approval is not the best way for her since she so clearly balks at it ... but I think authoritarian parenting would be worse for her. What we've settled on is a non-coercive model with co-operatively-derived rules that I am asked, by her, to enforce, over her protests, in one or two areas.

A week ago the kids took over caring for the laying hens, at my eldest's insistence. The other kids happily agreed to help her in this endeavour. They provide care (which involves four carefully-spelled-out steps a day) and in exchange can sell the eggs. Since then the younger two have done every last bit of work. They pool all their earnings as a matter of course, and buy stuff collectively. This is just the way they choose to do things; they're very close. I'm wondering how many more years it will be before my easy-going middle kids start refusing to take her input into purchase decisions since she's not contributing her share to the pot. Since they're so easy-going, especially about money and ownership, I imagine it may never arise. Ahh... what I'd give for some more "in your face" natural consequences for my eldest. She seems to lead a charmed life where her recalcitrance has little negative effect on herself, only on others.

Sorry, I got off on my own tangent there. I guess I needed that .

Miranda
post #40 of 61
Miranda, I agree that each child has his or her own temperment and some are just harder to deal with than others. My 4th child is like that and I'm sometimes amazed that she and I ever made it to her 15th birthday. We are great friends now and I'm srue we always will be, in spite of (or maybe because of) all the head to head confrontations we have had over the years.
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