Help? Babe was born 5 days ago, my milk still isn't in. - Page 3

[seraph]

Lisa, I cried every day until Kaia was a month old. I felt so terrible! But after my milk finally came in and I got my supply going, we nursed just fine and are still going strong! No supplementing! She loves her mooka and nurses all the time.
I never got much from the pump even after my milk came in, but Kaia could always get milk even when I could only pump some drops. I think the baby is MUCH better at getting out the milk than the pump is.

[veganmamma]

Laura- you know Lisa IRL, she was at the MDC Santa Cruz Gathering. She was pg then and almost due!
Lauren

[bfbabygirl]

seraph is right - the pump is way less effective for milk expression than your baby being at the breast. I'd try to breastfeed not pump so much.

I don't know if the doctors gave you the risks for drugs like mag sulfate but you should be aware of the effects for you and baby. For example, mag sulfate makes newborns VERY sleepy after birth and that can mess up nursing something awful. You probably already know that anyone in obstetrics can confirm that everything given to you (except Cytotec) passed through the placenta to your baby.

Even studies way back in '61 showed that Nubain given in labor led to 'disorganized behavior' in the newborn and subsequent difficulty in breastfeeding and of course, newborn weight loss.

The Pitocin is thought to disrupt milk production. Normal oxytocin production is NOTHING like the continous dosage of Pit and therefore, the normal course of oxytocin in the breastfeeding stimulus is dramatically altered. Your body could be recovering from the violence of the Pit and not responding well to the rise and fall of oxytocin in your body (which would stimulate milk production).

YOu already know the dismal stats for moms supplementing with formula prior to newborns being a month old - hopefully this will not include you and your baby! But it is critical to be off formula asap.

Sorry this is a long post. It might be worthwhile if you have not been briefed on the effects of the drugs you and your baby received, to review those with the lactation consultant and understand how long those effects are expected to hinder your milk production and your baby's adequate nursing response (as well as overall newborn behaviors like drowsiness, etc.)

[laurata]

Originally posted by veganmamma
Laura- you know Lisa IRL, she was at the MDC Santa Cruz Gathering. She was pg then and almost due!
Lauren

Of course! I had forgotten. :LOL

[veganmamma]

I don't know if the doctors gave you the risks for drugs like mag sulfate but you should be aware of the effects for you and baby. For example, mag sulfate makes newborns VERY sleepy after birth and that can mess up nursing something awful. You probably already know that anyone in obstetrics can confirm that everything given to you (except Cytotec) passed through the placenta to your baby.

I'm not sure why you posted this here. She can't go back in time and refuse the drugs, and you don't really know what her situation was. Having read her birth story and talked to her, I know that she had +3 protein in her urine. Do I personally think that her OB went over the top? I do think that, yes.

Are you trying to make her feel even worse for losing her homebirth? I can attest that she planned it since before I'd ever met her and before she was even TTC. Lisa is a very educated person in these matters, she doesn't need you to school her on the effects of labor augmenting drugs.

I'd try to breastfeed not pump so much.

Did she say how much she was pumping? Or even that she was using it as a gauge to see how much milk she had?

YOu already know the dismal stats for moms supplementing with formula prior to newborns being a month old - hopefully this will not include you and your baby! But it is critical to be off formula asap.

I think that's already been established

It might be worthwhile if you have not been briefed on the effects of the drugs you and your baby received, to review those with the lactation consultant and understand how long those effects are expected to hinder your milk production and your baby's adequate nursing response (as well as overall newborn behaviors like drowsiness, etc.)

Okay, excuse me- HOW in GOD'S name is this supportive?? You are basically saying to her that she should go talk to a LC to discuss how she is going to continue to have a hard time? (or at least IYO) How is that productive?

I think your post was way out of line, Lisa does not need anyone trying to make her feel worse about the drugs used to augment her labor. She is grieving the loss of a natural birth and she doesn't need you to drive it home. I can't believe that you would post something like that to her thread. If you don't have anything nice and constructive to say, then don't say it. Personally, I think you should go back and edit your post to say something like, "I hope things are getting better. "

It would be nice if you could do it soon, before she gets online and sees it!
Lauren

[liam's mom]

Lisa, I just wanted to let you know that I had plans for a natural birth that went down the toilet, I felt HORRIBLE, a failure, all that stuff. I had a c-section and ds ended up in the NICU for 5 days. I was so stressed and upset that it took nearly a week for my milk to fully come in (5-6 days). He was on an IV in the NICU for 2 1/2 days, then when it was determined that he was stable they were able to give him bottles of formula when I couldn't be there, and I breastfed him using an SNS as much as I could. I also pumped like a FIEND--not for milk expression so much as stimulation.

Anyway, I was a total wreck when he was born. But I wanted to give you a story with a happy ending --my milk did come in, and ds is a GREAT nurser!! I'm pretty sure using the SNS at the hospital had a lot to do with that. I think you're doing fantastic, and I have absolute faith that any day you're going to be engorged with lots of mama's milk! Keep eating that oatmeal!!! I'll be thinking of you.

[StarMama]

Thank you again Sereph! I'm trying to keep my spirts up about everything, but man its hard! Just talking to the LC when I went in on day 3 about how hungry Orion was and how my milk hadn't come in made me want to cry. That morning Dh was holding the baby while I bawled in the tub. Being able to breastfeed has an importance to me that is beyond just the normal reasons of why a mother should breastfeed a child. Its like I want to validate that my body can do *something* right, and I can at least be able to follow my own choices in how I feed my child.

Thank you for the offer Laura, Dh and I will think about it And its ok, I didn't realize I had met you at the picnic until Lauren said so either :LOL

bfbabygirl, I was told what the drugs would do to me *during* labor, but they never went into any effects it would have on the baby. And he has never been too sleepy to nurse from the drugs (thank goodness, it would have only made a bad situation worse), he just gets full from formula for much longer than breastmilk. Now that isn't such a problem since Lauren is being so wonderful and pumping for us. I didn't *want* the drugs, I did everything I could to avoid them, I even consulted with my midwives before I let them induce me. But when you're faced with doctors telling you that you're going to have seizures or possibly a stroke, its terribly hard to say 'no', especially when I didn't have the time or resources at hand to do research before making a decision about how much of a chance I had for a seizure/stroke to occur. But I made a choice during my labor to allow the mag sulfate and pitocin because of the seriousness of the situation (or at least the seriousness of the situation as it was presented to me at the time).

I have spoken to the LC about the medications and how they are affecting me (because as I said, it does not seem to me that ds has been affected by them. He nurses very well, and now that his feedings are breastmilk, wakes frequently to nurse) and she told me what I said earlier. That on the outside it could take 10-12 days for my milk to come in, and that its not likely to come in after that (and boy as I come closer to that 'deadline' it worries me more and more.. 8 days today... not of course like its set in stone that it wouldn't come after that, but just remembering what she said)...

YOu already know the dismal stats for moms supplementing with formula prior to newborns being a month old - hopefully this will not include you and your baby! But it is critical to be off formula asap.

That comment was not very helpful. And I wonder if the "stats" are seperating moms who just bottle feed their babies for convience/to let dads feed/ect from moms who are using SNS or other systems and doing everything under their power to breastfeed?
I KNOW that the formula isn't 'helping' any. But I also KNOW my son **HAS** to have food. A newborn can survive on just colostrum for about a week (or at least I've read that in a few places...). Its 8 days now. He was horribly hungry, horribly upset, and nursing so much I was honest to god delirious for no more than 15 minutes of sleep at a time by day 3. I can't imagine how things would be now at day 8 if I wasn't supplementing! Trust me, the thing I would most LOVE to do is walk the damn can of formula down to the dumpster and POUR it OUT! I can't begin to express how HORRIBLY upset I am that I've had to feed him formula. I'm so happy now that he can get some breastmilk, but still wish that I could provide it for him (the whole want my body to do SOMETHING right thing).

And I've figured out that he's *on the breast* about 9 hours a day. I think that's stimulating me quite a bit. I pump afterwards just to try to get even more stimulation. It is depressing to see just a couple of drops, but I know that it isn't a measure of how much I'm producing.

And thank you Lauren, for the support (& everything else too!). You've been SO wonderful!

[bfbabygirl]

Lisa, thank you for the descriptions of your conversations with your lactation consultant, that all makes so much sense and I'm glad you have her helping you through this hard time!

You sound veyr well informed and I applaud your tenacity!

Hope things go better soon (don't know how to access the emoticon I was told to put here, sorry).

I'm sure everything will be great very soon! And I'm so happy for you that you have such a wonderful MIL to help out at home, with laundry and has all her friends pulling for you. Great to have that support.

You can do it!

[MistyD]

Lisa, pardon the personal question but how much are you bleeding? Are there any clots? I've read that retained pieces of placenta can keep you from producing milk at the 'normal' rate. If you have any reason to think that might be the case, call your OB and insist on an ultrasound to check.

Also, I am beyond pissed that an LC told you that if your milk didn't come in by 10-12 days it wouldn't at all!!! Every woman is different, if your body needs longer to get going then that is okay, I'm positive that it will all come together soon. Please try not to think of it as a deadline, just a journey that you and Orion are on together.

[StarMama]

Misty, its about 'heavy period' right now. I only had one largish clot like 4 days PP (maybe half a golf ball sized) and now I do have little clots in the bottom of the toliet after I use the restroom. The LC said the same thing about retained placenta... but she said I'd know it, I'd feel like crap and have lots of cramping and such. Is that true? This is my first babe, so I'm not sure what stage my bleeding should be at here.

[pumpkinhead]

Dear Lisa_Lynn,

I've been following this thread for a bit now and have been dropping in daily so check and see if 'today' is 'the day'. (That being when your milk comes in.)

I've been holding off posting anything, as this is a very personal struggle but, I feel compelled to offer you my support. Let me just tell you that you are AWESOME! Little Orion is one blessed babe! You must have a deep well of inner strength girl!

Rest assured, you are doing EVERYTHING in your power to give your little love his Mama's milk, and I just KNOW it won't be in vain! Formula is a great tool IF it is needed, and in your case, it was! Don't beat yourself up over that one! As parent's we can only do what we feel in our hearts is best for our babes.

I can only hope that this worry will soon subside for you and your DH so you can get on with enjoying your new babe. Soak up every second; it goes by so quick.


"Cleaning and scrubbing can wait til tomorrow,
for babies grow up, we've learned to our sorrow
So quiet down cob webs, dust go to sleep
I'm rocking my baby and babies don't keep"

~unknown

[MistyD]

Lisa, I don't know. Personally, I'd probably call my OB and ask for an ultrasound just to check ( and I'm typically very anti-u/s). I know that would be a hassle though....it's up to you.

Another thought, have you discussed taking a prescription for making more milk? I realize that your milk isn't in yet, but I thought, maybe.... Or an herbal galactalouge? I know several moms who use this one, Nursing Mothers Blend http://www.kerrysherbals.com/tinctures.shtml .

Have you called LLL? Perhaps a leader could offer more advice.

I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Just get through one hour at a time.

[laurata]

Lisa, I just wanted to say... YOUR MILK IS GOING TO COME IN! I am lighting a candle and thinking positive thoughts for you. But I also wanted to let you know that I know two women in SF who extended nursed with SNS their whole nursing career. It's a lot more work, but the benefits of nursing still exist, even if much of the nutrition comes from formula. I don't want to get you down or anything, because YOUR MILK IS GOING TO COME IN! Let me know if you want me to pass your situation on to my friends so I can hook you up.

Are you getting enough rest? I hope you aren't overdoing it, but if you are, strip your shirt off, climb in bed, and cuddle that babe of yours a while. {{{hugs}}}

[veganmamma]

bfbabygirl, I was told what the drugs would do to me *during* labor, but they never went into any effects it would have on the baby. And he has never been too sleepy to nurse from the drugs (thank goodness, it would have only made a bad situation worse), he just gets full from formula for much longer than breastmilk. Now that isn't such a problem since Lauren is being so wonderful and pumping for us. I didn't *want* the drugs, I did everything I could to avoid them, I even consulted with my midwives before I let them induce me. But when you're faced with doctors telling you that you're going to have seizures or possibly a stroke, its terribly hard to say 'no', especially when I didn't have the time or resources at hand to do research before making a decision about how much of a chance I had for a seizure/stroke to occur. But I made a choice during my labor to allow the mag sulfate and pitocin because of the seriousness of the situation (or at least the seriousness of the situation as it was presented to me at the time).

Lisa- you don't need to justify anything to us. I think anyone with any compassion understands your situation.

Hope things go better soon (don't know how to access the emoticon I was told to put here, sorry).

it's a colon ":" and then the word "hug" with no caps and not spaces. And I"m sure we can all appreciate the gesture.
Lauren

[Trishy]

Lisa i just wanted to jump in and hopefully offer a little support. I have been watching this thread and praying every day that your milk will come in. This morning I was talking to another MDC mama and telling her how Lauren was giving you her milk and I was just overcome with emotion. I'm so glad that you have a wonderful person like her so close to you to help out. Your milk will come in.

[bfbabygirl]

[pumpkinhead]

veganmama
I just wanted to add that you too are AWESOME! What an amazing gift to give.

There just aren't any words. You're beautiful!

[gurumama]

Lisa,

I wrote a long reply here and then they shut down the boards and I lost the whole thing! I'll recap:

1. I successfully nursed and supplemented with both my boys, without compromising my milk supply. *IF* you wind up with low supply, you *CAN* successfully use formula/donated milk throughout the entire time your baby needs it while breastfeeding as well. In my case, with both sons, I breastfed first then supplemented. With ds2 I used an SNS (what a pain! but worth it--get a BUNCH of them if you can afford it so that you always have a clean one on hand...) and we always gave him any pumped breastmilk first, then formula. I just wanted to chime in on a positive note that if, worst case, you end up needing to supplement long-term, you CAN do it without automatically drying up.

2. Adoptive mothers are able to lactate, and you ARE getting some milk now--1/4 an ounce at a pumping is great, even if your MIL accidentally threw it out! Argh! That's liquid gold! Anyhow, you ARE getting milk, so your milk *IS* coming in--just not in the more traditional way. Not every mother deals with leaking and engorgement and obvious letdowns. We're all built differently, so remember that your milk IS coming in already. Therefore now the focus is on how much you're producing, not whether you'll produce, because you're doin' it, girlfriend!

Rest, eat that oatmeal, and consider ordering Domperidone (Motillium) for increased milk supply. It's safe, though not available in the US anymore (FDA red tape). It's approved in Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. I use it and I've noticed a clean increase in milk supply. It costs me $80, shipped, for 600 tablets, a 75-80 day supply. Many women just need one "round" of 6-10 weeks of this, and then find their milk supply is permanently up. You can order it here:

http://www.globaldrug.tv/search.asp?...ds=domperidone

PM me if you have questions.

Good luck to you!

Mel

[bfbabygirl]

Originally posted by veganmamma
Are you trying to make her feel even worse for losing her homebirth?[/B]

No. Not at all. Sorry you took it to mean that and spoke for Lisa accordingly.

Originally posted by veganmamma
Did she say how much she was pumping? [/B]

Yes.

Originally posted by veganmamma
You are basically saying to her that she should go talk to a LC to discuss how she is going to continue to have a hard time? (or at least IYO) How is that productive?

No, I'm not 'basically saying' that, sorry IYO you feel that I am. If one has more of a prognosis for the effects of these drugs (like the narcotics and their disruption to the newborn's nursing) then a more realistic timetable can be established. If one knows that typically, the effects of Nubain, epidural and pitocin (individually and collectively) delay milk production by 5 days, Lisa can expect to be in a 'normal' range for what she received in labor. Not expecting that milk production timetable will look anything like after a natural labor and birth. Comparing milk production onset to a non-drugged labor and birth will only look discouraging, as the natural labor and birth will usually have milk production onset at 3-5 days postpartum. Drugged labor and birth should be treated as a unique timetable, not compared with natural.

What looks to be delayed milk production onset may actually be well within the normal range for these drugs used in labor and birth. Expectations can be adjusted accordingly and less worry for all involved as well as use of supplementary feeding devices and foods in the waiting period. I still agree with seraph on the less effective method of milk expression via pumping (what is it, like 40% of milk is expressed via pumping?) It can be incredibly discouraging to pump only one quarter of an ounce in one session or multiple sessions. And the illusion is that is what baby is getting at breast, sometimes. Babies are much more efficient at milk expression but if they are recovering from narcotics or do not have the gut properly prepared for milk due to non colostrum feeding sources, then their sucking can be compromised, too.

I'm sure it will all be great very soon for Lisa! Breastfeeding is sometimes as simple as everyone likes to quote from various experts but the effects of drugs on the newborn are not adequately accounted for or disclosed for many, many moms. The scrambling post partum to 'fix' breastfeeding problems isn't something I wish upon any new mom. And often, the advice from LLL, lactation consultants, et al comes from a natural birth paradigm so the problems only continue.

[mama2bababoo]

Hi Lisa! I'm veganmamma's friend and I've been pumping away ever since I talked to her. In fact I'm dropping off milk to her today and hoping it gets to you in time because it's fresh from yesturday and today. Almost five ounces from this morning and I'm not sure how much from yesturday. I am thinking and praying for you all the time. Keep up the good work with the SNS. My ds has a cleft palate and didn't nurse very well for a long time. I used SNS with him for a few months off and on because when ds sucked it was like sucking through a straw with a hole in. That's what LC told me anyway. I'm admiring you and sending you well wishes because I know first hand how difficult using that little device can be. I always attached the container holding the milk above my sons mouth because that's what LC told me to do. I think that's what you said you are doing. I also switched it off when he didn't actively suck. I didn't believe when LC's told me that ds was getting more milk out from me than when I pumped, but I DO believe that now after all these months. It's hard to believe in yourself but try to keep your spirits up and I will continue to pump for you in the meantime. If you don't want to use my milk because you don't know me I will understand. Just let veganmamma know and I will continue to pump until I hear from her.