Cats - indoor or outdoor? - Page 6

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by ColoradoMama

Okay, I don't know how it happened, but it looks like you quoted me.

Huh. I dunno how I did that. It was supposed to be Chirp.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

Yeah, alla that. Alla that is exactly what we're objecting to. I don't want a cat on my car roof; I will DEFINITELY trap any cat that I find on or near my car. I don't want cats fighting, I don't want birds chased. It's also illegal. Or were you being ironic? Please say you were being ironic.

Nope, not being ironic in the least.

If you trap my cat coz it's on/near your car and I find out, I will find a way to make sure you regret it. That is really messed up. If my neighbour didn't want my cat on her car, I would expect her to let me know. That is neighbourly.

As I said, I don't let my cat out in the early morning coz my housemate feeds the birds around the back and they are more vulnerable at that time. He also wears a bell so his chases are a moot point. Around here people aren't overly snotty and they don't care about cats being outside, or on their cars, etc. The issue is feral and abandoned cats, mine were abandoned by the people around the corner and now they live with me. The neighbour feeds the feral cats, my housemate traps and neuters them when necessary (how I got mine), and we try to keep the peace by making sure the fat well fed cats (um mine) are inside by evening so the feral cats can eat without having to battle the spoilt ones. That's about it. Other than that, they go out, they come in. That's life.

The things people find to get self righteous about on this forum, it's amazing.

[thekimballs]

Ok, specifically on the evils of domestication--of course I understand that argument. I've heard it tens if not hundreds of times. You can't be a dog breeder without hearing it.

So let's follow that argument logically.

If cats are demystified and dumbed down and disrespected by domestication, and they are not our property but our companions and peers, then they exist on their own recognizance. They need and deserve no protection from us, because protection is patronizing and ownership is slavery.

In that case, they should be treated like any other dangerous introduced wild species that is significantly unbalancing the ecosystem--they should be exterminated wherever and whenever they occur. They can continue to exist in the wild, not feral, where they belong--in Africa and parts of Asia--in numbers that are self-regulated.

There really isn't a middle ground here--you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't protect cats and make medical decisions for them and not become an owner, a domesticator. Either you reject domestication altogether or you stop calling it evil.

Now call me a cat bleeding heart, but I am not willing to live that reality. I think the theory itself is incorrect--the anthropological record is very clear that cats and dogs domesticated THEMSELVES as much, if not more, than we domesticated them--but even if I accepted it as a possibility intellectually it is an untenable reality when played out.

So legally and morally I am responsible for the conduct of a climax predator that has no proper place in this ecosystem and no checks on population beyond what I impose. That means that I MUST act to keep the existing ecosystem and food web intact by controlling the predation and population of that predator.

[grahamsmom98]

Outdoor cats are tastier because of all the fresh air they breathe and the wild critters they chase and eat.

Indoor cats that escape are too full of fat because of their lazy lifestyle.

We prefer outdoor cats grilled.

Yum, yum, yum. : :

[thismama]

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98

Outdoor cats are tastier because of all the fresh air they breathe and the wild critters they chase and eat.

Indoor cats that escape are too full of fat because of their lazy lifestyle.

We prefer outdoor cats grilled.

Yum, yum, yum. : :

Well you'd only want to eat one of mine. The other one is a serious chub.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

So legally and morally I am responsible for the conduct of a climax predator that has no proper place in this ecosystem and no checks on population beyond what I impose. That means that I MUST act to keep the existing ecosystem and food web intact by controlling the predation and population of that predator.

Well... I think cat overpopulation is the problem. I'll be honest and say I am not a cat person. These cats that I have landed in my lap and I tried to find a home for them, but there were no decent takers. I'm not willing to live with them inside all the time, too much mess and filth plus they get wrangy with no outlet for their energy, my place is small, my kid gets into drama with the one and ends up scratched, and my housemate has allergies. I mean, I am fond of them and happy enough to have them around, but I am not devoted, kwim? Like I am not going to take hours out of my life to give them a stimulating indoor playground and a kitty puppet show.

I hear the arguments about environmental impact of cats. I don't agree with the notion of mandatory indoor-ness, it might work well for some cats but for others IMO it would be cruel. There are so many cats that many of them live with people like me who feel kind of meh about them, who like them but are not interested in making a giant project out of them. I think a better solution than demanding cats be kept indoors all the time would be to have mandatory sterilization. Then you get the cat population down, cats are owned by people who are really thrilled about the whole thing, and you have fewer numbers of cats outdoors.

[littleaugustbaby]

Originally Posted by kaliki_kila

I think people with outdoor cats are assuming that our indoor cats are sitting in the dark all day in the same stale room, tortured to death from the boredom of it all. My house actually has huge floor-to-ceiling windows that are almost always open, peacocks wandering around outside, all sorts of toys, different levels of cat trees, treats, cat grass, catnip, etc. You can create a very stimulating environment indoors and it's not as stressfull as going outside and having to defend your territory.

No, not really. I've had indoor cats before, and they were completely content to be indoor cats. My kitties spend a good 90% of their time indoors right now.

And when they're outside, they're not stressed out and defending their territory. They're usually rolling around on the lawn or napping on the front porch. They don't care to go far from home without their people.

[Sage_SS]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

What funny timing... I just went to put stuff on my porch for a fellow frecycler, and walked right out to a GIANT tom. He has to be 20 pounds. He's not running, so he's obviously somebody's pet, but I'm going to get dressed and go set the trap.

People, if you're not going to neuter your pets and then let it spend the night on my porch (who knows what the beast has already sprayed, maybe my vegetable garden), then it's mine to deal with.

He'll get scanned for a chip, but I doubt he has it if he's not neutered, then he'll get sterilized, then held for a week, but again, if he's not neutered and he's out running the neighborhood, I doubt he'll claimed, then he'll be put up for adoption.

If you don't like the idea of someone catching your cat and doing this, on their own property, KEEP THEM INSIDE.

If you found my cat on your deck and trapped him and brought him in, I'd get a phone call to pick him up. He's chipped and neutered.

[SAHDS]

I don't own a cat, but I know all about outside cats.

We have about 10 that just roam free in the neighborhood, doing as they please. I have 2 stories:

A few years back, we had a few that would come into our yard and urinate in our back yard where my children played (around the flowers/beauty bark)! They were young at the time and I was fearful that somehow they would put something in their mouth, or get it in a cut, whatever. So, DH went to the humane society, got a cage and trapped a cat. I couldn't care less. If you want a pet, take care of it instead of letting it outside to be someone else's problem; which it was.

About a month ago, we started smelling cat urine in our house. Long story short, it was one of the cats who had been going into our crawl space to live. DH boarded the area up (after he had to go into near bio-hazard gear, crawl under the house and clean it) and we haven't had much of a problem since. Thank God.

We do have a dog and I would never let it roam free to urinate or defecate in someone else's yard. It's lazy and rude, in my opinion. People should take care of their animals or they shouldn't have them at all.

Sorry to be so heated, but this issue really made us angry and we cannot wait to move out of this area.

[ananas]

Originally Posted by thismama

If you trap my cat coz it's on/near your car and I find out, I will find a way to make sure you regret it. That is really messed up.

Agreed.

[thekimballs]

Originally Posted by Sage_SS

If you found my cat on your deck and trapped him and brought him in, I'd get a phone call to pick him up. He's chipped and neutered.

There's the substantial risk that your chip won't be read by the scanners at the police or shelter to which he's taken, depending on when he was chipped and what scanner(s) they have. And an unread chip equals a "stray" cat equals impound for a few days and then likely euthanizing.

Chips are a GREAT system, but they're far from foolproof and I'd never rely on them to protect a stray animal.

And if you did get him back, you'd also get a healthy fine and a big lecture, at least in every town I've ever lived.

[thekimballs]

Originally Posted by thismama

Nope, not being ironic in the least.

If you trap my cat coz it's on/near your car and I find out, I will find a way to make sure you regret it. That is really messed up.

You are honestly, and truly, threatening me because you're doing something illegal and I protect my family? My daughter has asthma; she can tolerate our cats because they are religiously groomed and bathed. A cat on our car could equal a life-threatening asthma attack for her; it's happened before. Cats loose on my property infuriate my dogs, they make my cats spray inside my house, they make my sandbox and play areas unsafe. If the cat is stray, and by definition if it's in my yard or on my car it's a stray, the responsible thing is for me to trap it and take it to animal control.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

There's the substantial risk that your chip won't be read by the scanners at the police or shelter to which he's taken, depending on when he was chipped and what scanner(s) they have. And an unread chip equals a "stray" cat equals impound for a few days and then likely euthanizing.

Uh.... or you could just go down to the pound in your town or city and see if your cat is there.

Originally Posted by thekimballs

You are honestly, and truly, threatening me because you're doing something illegal and I protect my family? My daughter has asthma; she can tolerate our cats because they are religiously groomed and bathed. A cat on our car could equal a life-threatening asthma attack for her; it's happened before. Cats loose on my property infuriate my dogs, they make my cats spray inside my house, they make my sandbox and play areas unsafe. If the cat is stray, and by definition if it's in my yard or on my car it's a stray, the responsible thing is for me to trap it and take it to animal control.

My housemate has very bad asthma... I don't see how a cat OUTSIDE could give someone an asthma attack. If your daughter's asthma is really that incredibly severe, you could mention it to me, although I'd be hard pressed to believe you that your child could tolerate your cats indoors all the time, but not mine near your car.

And if you have dogs that go crazy when a cat is near, my cat would probably pretty quickly figure out not to go over to your house. But yeah if you trapped my cat, we would have a serious problem.

[chirp]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

You are honestly, and truly, threatening me because you're doing something illegal and I protect my family? My daughter has asthma; she can tolerate our cats because they are religiously groomed and bathed. A cat on our car could equal a life-threatening asthma attack for her; it's happened before. Cats loose on my property infuriate my dogs, they make my cats spray inside my house, they make my sandbox and play areas unsafe. If the cat is stray, and by definition if it's in my yard or on my car it's a stray, the responsible thing is for me to trap it and take it to animal control.

alright, after a good nights rest i can actually talk about this topic again...

actually your cats spray inside your house when they see other cats because they can't get outside to defend their territory...so they "smell up" your territory since that's where they are confined.

as a helpful tip...try placing a scratching post or other scent catcher by doors and other transition areas that lead to outside, especially by windows where they watch happy kitties frolicking in THEIR backyard. they can rub and scratch and take out their frustration on that instead of your floors...it might help.

and if you trapped my cat, without telling me that he was a problem first...we would definitely have a problem as well.

every neighbor (2 in his whole life) that has come to me and asked me to keep my cat off their porch er whatever, i have listened to and taken measures to appease them. i even told one neighbor not to be afraid to scare him off with a broom or something because I wouldn't be upset. He had to learn not to go on her porch. Well guess what. He learned. And we all share space and he doesn't go on her porch. but if she trapped him. without coming to me. just trapped him because she was paranoid about pet dander travelling through metal and glass in crazy proportions...moreso than pet dander in her house with her own cats...there would be a serious catfight (pun intended).


oh and to answer the question about domestication...
i hear ya'll on not keeping pets if i'm against domestication. unfortunately i got my cat before i was introduced to and accepted this concept. Now he's 7, and I love him. I will not stick him in a shelter where he will be "euthanized." G and I have already decided that once our pets go, that's it. No more pets. Unless we actually get our farm and then we'll get barn cats (and actually we'd be getting them for the exact reason some of you hate....but I'm not planting berry bushes to just feed birds, I want some of those berries too!). But since I made a committment 7 years ago to keep a cat...I'll stick with that committment.

and for you folks that take everything so literally and flip out with it...i wasn't comparing native subjugation to animal restraining...i was comparing the attitudes that make both ideas OKAY. Attitudes that reflect a deep arrogance. Something some of you have clearly demonstrated with your posts, so I guess I didn't even have to draw the connection in that way. I was just being honest in the way my brain was drawing together all of the information I was reading.

-j

[she]

Definitely indoors here. Outdoor excursions are 100% supervised and are minimal (due to the supervision clause, they don't like that part and rather been inside than smothered). There is just so much danger and trouble for unsupervised cats outside all of which has already been mentioned. Granted, cats are a fair bit smarter than dogs, which I think is why they've not had to abide by leash laws up until now Doesn't mean they are capable of taking proper care of themselves, though.

My grandmother has a cat, a timid little thing, that goes outside. She is the current in a long line of indoor/outdoor cats that have lived short brutal lives, she's lived the longest because she actually does NOT leave the yard. Passing dogs terrorize her and other outdoor cats bully her.

I'm planning on building a screened in terrace for the cats soon, so they can have sunshine and fresh air. I will also be getting a couple of barn cats when I start having to store animal feed in the barn. I will be getting semi-feral rescues for the job - they need an appropriate home, too, and their lack of social graces make them poor pets in the conventional sense.

[chirp]

Originally Posted by she

Definitely indoors here. Outdoor excursions are 100% supervised and are minimal (due to the supervision clause, they don't like that part and rather been inside than smothered). There is just so much danger and trouble for unsupervised cats outside all of which has already been mentioned. Granted, cats are a fair bit smarter than dogs, which I think is why they've not had to abide by leash laws up until now Doesn't mean they are capable of taking proper care of themselves, though.

My grandmother has a cat, a timid little thing, that goes outside. She is the current in a long line of indoor/outdoor cats that have lived short brutal lives, she's lived the longest because she actually does NOT leave the yard. Passing dogs terrorize her and other outdoor cats bully her.

I'm planning on building a screened in terrace for the cats soon, so they can have sunshine and fresh air. I will also be getting a couple of barn cats when I start having to store animal feed in the barn. I will be getting semi-feral rescues for the job - they need an appropriate home, too, and their lack of social graces make them poor pets in the conventional sense.

hey thats not a bad idea...already partially into their job...thank you!!

[frog]

Originally Posted by thismama

If you trap my cat coz it's on/near your car and I find out, I will find a way to make sure you regret it. That is really messed up. If my neighbour didn't want my cat on her car, I would expect her to let me know. That is neighbourly.

We recently had a skunk living under our deck and had a company out to set a live trap for it. Our (newish) neighbors across the street let their cat out (and it craps ALL UNDER OUR DECK, which is LOVELY in the summertime : ), so I let them know that they should keep him in for the next three nights or so, because I wasn't really interested in having to catch and release their cat.

We caught a (formerly pet, apparently) rabbit and two cats before a raccoon chased the skunk out from under our deck.

My point, here...hm. I have lost my point.

Oh! I remember! Even though their cat didn't end up in our trap (even though they ignored my request), two others did. I don't think it's my responsibility to have to try to guess who owns all the cats roaming our neighborhood. It's their owners' responsibility NOT TO LET THEM ROAM.

I adore you, thismama, but I'm REALLY glad you're not my neighbor.

[greenmagick]

I do agree its not the most polite thing to do...trapping a neighbor's cat and taking it in. I would say if you know whose cat it is, the first time I would probably just return it and explain that I dont want them on my property (in my case because of my chickens, but the why really doesnt matter).

The problem is if they continue to let their cat out with no confinement, it will most likely wander back over. Why should it be my responsibility to watch out for and return their cat? If it happened again, I would trap and take it in....sorry, gave them a chance and they blew it. Also, if I didnt know whose cat it was, again, not my responsibility to find out. First time I would probably try "shooing" it away..hose, loud noises, whatever, but if it returned, into a trap it'd go.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by thismama

If you trap my cat coz it's on/near your car and I find out, I will find a way to make sure you regret it. That is really messed up. If my neighbour didn't want my cat on her car, I would expect her to let me know. That is neighbourly.

I have a big huge friendly male tom cat in my garage. I dare, dare the owner of that cat to cause a stink with me. Upon investigating this morning in the daylight, I have learned he sprayed my daughter's wagon, and dug up a good portion of my garden about 3 feet where my daughter plays on the concrete with her side walk chalk. There are strange-cat feces out there, and the dirt he used to covered it up is kicked all over the drive way. So now, I have to put on rubber gloves and go outside and pick up someone ELSE'S cat poop, sweep the dirt back into the garden, disinfect the spot since we've already received ringworm from the cats around here, who knows what this one has, and then clean my daughters wagon.

I think the neighborly thing to do would be to keep YOUR cat on YOUR property. Why would you feel you have the right to allow your cat to sleep on my car or come onto my property? Because I haven't said otherwise? My neighbors haven't said I can't swim in their pool either, should I walk down there after breakfast and go for a swim?

The things people find to get self righteous about on this forum, it's amazing.

You know, I could really care less about cats that go out and sit on the deck, roll in the grass, and come inside. I mean, there's always going to be a risk that something bad might happen (cat gets spooked and runs into the road, stray dog comes by and attacks), but it's not bothering me, so I really don't care. Might be sad about a few birds, but not all cats hunt when they go outside. Whatever. But I get downright PISSED when I have to go outside and clean poop from an animal that doesn't belong to me, on my OWN property, in or near the place where my kid PLAYS.

Keep your cat OFF my property. It's really simple.

Originally Posted by Sage_SS

If you found my cat on your deck and trapped him and brought him in, I'd get a phone call to pick him up. He's chipped and neutered.

You would be fined. It would go up incrementally everytime it happened, until you reached the point where you would be forced to pay a permanent fine in the form of a more expensive license tag for your pet that has been deemed a "nuisance animal". Instead of 30 dollars annually, I think it's $150.

[KayleeZoo]

Indoors. One of my cats would love to romp around outside, but I don't want him to wind up as coyote food (a huge risk in our area), so since I have the ability to reason and he doesn't, I make that decision for him.

I do take him (the only one of the 3 who is interested in going out) out on a leash and let him roll in the grass and lie on the warm cement sidewalk.

It is a mark of irresponsible pet ownership to allow one's animals to roam onto another person's property uninvited. I have trapped many cats on both our property and my parents' and taken them to animal control. Our city has a leash law; a person who allows their pet to wander off-leash is in violation of the law. I have also taken cats that are wandering and found new homes for them. And I have no qualms about doing so. The people who get them are thrilled and take good care of them; the cats are no longer outside, at risk of getting hit by a car, eaten by coyotes or tortured by evil teenagers.

Something to remember if you have an outdoor cat that is microchipped- it is possible to remove the chip. And it's very easy for a veterinarian to do so. Hypothetically speaking, if someone who is concerned about the welfare of a particularly friendly cat who is constantly roaming outdoors is on friendly terms with a vet, it's quite possible to have the chip removed and have the animal re-chipped with a new owner's information. Bottom line- a microchip is not the be-all and end-all of a safety net for getting an outdoor cat returned.