Cats - indoor or outdoor? - Page 11

[frog]

I hear all that, thismama. Still :

[thismama]

I think people have way overblown this issue and it's getting on my nerves in a big way.

[frog]

Originally Posted by thismama

I think people have way overblown this issue and it's getting on my nerves in a big way.

I'm not sure what to say to you about that. It's a big deal to me.

[AbbottsMomma]

I would just like to say that our cat is 99% indoor (he comes outside with us when we barbeque in the back but I don't let him leave the patio. Mostly he prowls around. He prefers to sit on my lap when we're outside!)

When he's indoors, he rules the roost. He is slowly taking over the entire couch, relocating our entire family to the loveseat. He has a scratching post right next to his food and water and his litter box (which I clean once or twice a week) is located in the nice warm fresh smelling laundry room.

I stay at home during the day and he gets all the love he asks for. When DH comes home from work, he gives him "play" time when they chase each other up and down the stairs.

He went from being a greasy underweight shelter cat to being a 13 pound long-haired sphinx.

He lets the baby pull his tails, grab his ears, and tug on his fur. He doesn't say a word or make a move.

He is the happiest cat I have ever met. We spoil the bejeebus out of him, love him, and let him do as he pleases. He is clean and tidy (except when he mistakes my laundry basket for his litter box if I leave them side by side) and a wonderful member of the family.

Some cats are happier outside, some are happier inside. Just like humans. I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to do things, but I definitely feel there is a safe way.

I'd like to see the day where the only cats who are making babies are the ones who are suppose to, rather than feral cats taking advantage of virgin house cats out past curfew

[thismama]

Originally Posted by frog

I'm not sure what to say to you about that. It's a big deal to me.

Why though? It makes no sense to me. Minor irritations possibly for neighbours - neighbours minorly irritate each other in lots of ways. Bird chasing - can be curtailed and prevented. Overpopulation - not an issue if cats are neutered. Risks to the cats - well yes it is riskier to let cats outside but the choice is risk vs. a less adventurous life, and I think it's okay to say owners get to make that decision and either one should be respected.

Pet cats who spend some time outside are a whole different thing from abandoned, feral, suffering cats who do not have their basic needs met and are left to breed and produce more cats who will live lives of misery. I am right there with anyone who objects to that, and my neighbour and housemate are very proactive about helping with that issue in our neighbourhood. But it seems the two issues are getting conflated here. And there is this *thing* about self righteousness in the Pets forum that I find... interesting? And predictable. And that I see played out yet again in this thread.

[frog]

Originally Posted by thismama

Why though?

Because I'm an avid birdwatcher and I've seen what outdoor cats have done to the bird population in my area. Because I love to garden and cat crap is a big problem in my garden and yard. Because I hope that my kids (dear God LET THERE BE KIDS SOMEDAY) will be able to play in the sandbox without sieving out the cat bombs, like I had to do when I was a little girl. Because I should be able to live trap a skunk out from under my deck without having to worry about trapping someone's cat. Because I should be able to have a nice home without someone else's cats marking the doors and deck because they see our cats inside. Because my cats should be able to hang out in our sunporch without the neighbor's cat hissing at them through the window. Because roaming cats are bad for the environment--they're not native, they're skilled predators and they're not prey for much in city or suburban neighborhoods. Because roaming cats spread disease to other animals as well as to people.

And that's just off the top of my head.

You see this as self-righteous, but I have a lot of trouble with pet owners who are unwilling to take responsibility for their animals' waste and unnecessary hunting (I understand that your cat doesn't appear to hunt--I'm fielding the question in general).

[heartmama]

Nobody is keeping the cat outside on this thread. Everyone has said they let their cats come in and go out... the whole indoor/outdoor thing. So the analogy is nonsensical. With an outdoor dog you are depriving it of companionship. Completely separate issue.

I was pointing out that you said it was impractical for some cat owners to keep their cat inside. That was what I was trying to understand. I will give a better example: There are certainly dogs that would like to come and go as they pleased. I have a co-worker who firmly believes a dog should be free to roam, that dogs would be miserable otherwise etc. But most people here would say "Not okay, the dog should be kept in a secure area at all times".

With cats, you said it was sometimes impractical to keep it inside. Do you mean that it's impractical to keep cats *in the house* or that it would be impractical to prevent the cat from roaming out of unsecured area's period?

I don't have a problem with cats spending time in a yard from which they cannot escape (Ie. cat proof fencing). Lots of dogs enjoy an hour or two each day sunning themselves on the grass and snuffing around in bushes. Why not cats? I have no problem with that. I'm trying to understand what you mean about this being impractical with cats.

[thismama]

I'm praying for kids for you too froggie.

My one cat DID hunt, which I didn't anticipate - I'm really not a cat person. So it came as a surprise, but he is foiled now. Bwahaha.

My kid has a sandbox with a lid... I don't feel resentment over that, I think of it like I think 'oh I need a lid on the garbage or the raccoons will get it.'

Marking the doors and deck - yeah, here the abandoned cats do that because the neighbour feeds them. It sucks, although I'm glad she feeds them and to me that is worth the PITA of dealing with marking. Hissing thru the window - I would water squirt them a few times. Would that dissuade them? I would find cats hissing thru my window extremely annoying but I would also be willing to put out effort temporarily to fix the problem, if that would work.

Apart from the bird hunting thing, the 'bad for the environment' thing to me is nebulous and vague and has been used as a red herring in this conversation IMO. I just drove my kid to preschool - talk about bad for the environment!

I can get down with neutering, having parametres that prevent a lot of the issues people are talking about here. But 'oh noes all cats must be indoors at all times or you are bad bad kitty owners and neighbours' is where it becomes self righteous IMO.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by heartmama

I was pointing out that you said it was impractical for some cat owners to keep their cat inside. That was what I was trying to understand. I will give a better example: There are certainly dogs that would like to come and go as they pleased. I have a co-worker who firmly believes a dog should be free to roam, that dogs would be miserable otherwise etc. But most people here would say "Not okay, the dog should be kept in a secure area at all times".

Dogs and cats are different creatures. My dog has a hell of a lot less chance of making it across the street alive than do my cats. And dogs are pack animals, understand territorial boundaries of a yard, etc., are more trainable and more containable. Dogs should not be kept inside all the time, but you can't walk kitty to the park on a leash. Or you shouldn't, IMO, it's cruel.

With cats, you said it was sometimes impractical to keep it inside. Do you mean that it's impractical to keep cats *in the house* or that it would be impractical to prevent the cat from roaming out of unsecured area's period?

I don't have a problem with cats spending time in a yard from which they cannot escape (Ie. cat proof fencing). Lots of dogs enjoy an hour or two each day sunning themselves on the grass and snuffing around in bushes. Why not cats? I have no problem with that. I'm trying to understand what you mean about this being impractical with cats.

I have no secured outdoor areas. I have a small place. For me it is impractical to keep the cats in the house. What you are suggesting may well be practical for you, I'm not saying it's impractical for everyone. But likewise, it is not doable for everyone.

And the whole line about well if it's not practical you shouldn't own the animal reeks of elitism to me. It's easy to say when you have a big ole sprawling house and a self contained yard. Talk about environmental impact! I'd bet a lot of money that someone in a small place whose cats go outside are making a LOT less negative environmental impact than those who live in the large amount of space that some people seem to be assuming everyone does on this thread. VERY ironic for those people to be harping to others about the environment.

The other issue is that with so many cats, if we institute some rule that nobody can own them unless they are La Owner Suprema, we will have a lot more cats in shelters than we already do. Mine would be dead for sure, and they are pretty nice cats who deserve to have a good life. If you want to legislate mandatory spay and neuter, I am right there with you. But this hysteria over responsibly owned pet cats going outside is too much for me.

[frog]

I'm not much of a fan of the word "hysteria" to describe this, thanks.

[thismama]

Hysteria works for me. It's definitely not rational.

[frog]

Actually, it's rational, and lots of people have detailed how and why it is. Still, though, you're welcome to call it like you see it. My issue with the term hysteria is its history:

The term originates with the Greek medical term, hysterikos. This referred to a medical condition, thought to be particular to women, caused by disturbances of the uterus, hystera in Greek. The term hysteria was coined by Hippocrates, who thought that suffocation and madness arose in women whose uteri had become too light and dry from lack of sexual intercourse and, as a result, wandered upward, compressing the heart, lungs, and diaphragm.

Quote snagged from the wiki entry on the word.

[thismama]

Well I didn't mean it that way. My 'uteri' has had lack of sexual intercourse and I think I am among the more rational on this issue. I'm sure all of you get laid a lot more than I do these days.

[AbbottsMomma]

If someone took my kitty because we live in a townhouse, it have to be an Elian Gonzalez-esque raid because I would be at the front door ready for a fight.

:

[WaitingForKiddos]

Originally Posted by thismama

I think people have way overblown this issue and it's getting on my nerves in a big way.

The cat shit in my yard makes it a big deal. That the shit is infested with worms makes it a bigger deal. There is NO reason, besides my neighbor's irresponsibility, that I ought to be cleaning up shit that doesn't belong to a member of my household.

Talking to the neighbor...ya it goes like this "Oh, no....my cat neeeeeeever goes out of their yard!' OR "oh, it's just poop...cats like to be out." OR "Well, he can't be inside all day...how cruel!"

What's cruel is the crappy time the cat is going to have at the pound when I manage to catch him. Damned cat keeps setting off the livetrap without being deep enough inside it!

[thismama]

Originally Posted by WaitingForKiddos

The cat shit in my yard makes it a big deal. That the shit is infested with worms makes it a bigger deal. There is NO reason, besides my neighbor's irresponsibility, that I ought to be cleaning up shit that doesn't belong to a member of my household.

Talking to the neighbor...ya it goes like this "Oh, no....my cat neeeeeeever goes out of their yard!' OR "oh, it's just poop...cats like to be out." OR "Well, he can't be inside all day...how cruel!"

What's cruel is the crappy time the cat is going to have at the pound when I manage to catch him. Damned cat keeps setting off the livetrap without being deep enough inside it!

So it sounds like you have spoken to your neighbour and they are unresponsive to the issue. That sucks, and they are being irresponsible.

I also think neighbourly relations are give and take. If you are not willing to deal with some cat shit, don't expect them to deal with loud music, firepits, ganja smoke, speeding, etc. In my neighbourhood we try to be easygoing. If someone got all uptight about my cats, I would be all uptight about other things in return. I understand that different neighbourhoods have different mores about all this stuff, but let's not separate out cats from other neighbour inconveniences and intrusions.

[WaitingForKiddos]

Originally Posted by thismama

So it sounds like you have spoken to your neighbour and they are unresponsive to the issue. That sucks, and they are being irresponsible.

I also think neighbourly relations are give and take. If you are not willing to deal with some cat shit, don't expect them to deal with loud music, firepits, ganja smoke, speeding, etc. In my neighbourhood we try to be easygoing. If someone got all uptight about my cats, I would be all uptight about other things in return. I understand that different neighbourhoods have different mores about all this stuff, but let's not separate out cats from other neighbour inconveniences and intrusions.

Thing is...I don't have issue with typical neighbor things and if I do I can think 'okay, this is a neighborhood thing. There's a give/take here." When it involves poop all bets are off.

[Mosaic]

It seems to me that if you have a house or lifestyle that is "impractical" to keep your cat indoors, and you have a cat that "needs" to go outside to have a full life, then the person is not well-suited for this kind of cat and this kind of cat is not well-suited to be a domestic pet.

Maybe I'm wierd, but I don't bring just anybody home. I assume most responsible pet owners select someone who will get along with them, other household members, their lifestyle, their personalities, etc. If it's not a good match, pick someone else to bring home, but don't adopt your kitty and put her back out on the street, even part-time.

(And yes, I am absolutely oozing elitism because I adopted my rescue kitty and took her home to my 475 sqft. apartment... Sorry, thismama... I do respect your insight here and elsewhere, but this time I'm gonna be a butt. )

[thismama]

Well, would you like my cats then? Or shall I just euthanize them? Seriously. Have you SEEN the shelters lately??? Nobody wanted my cats. They are wonderful cats. I am happy they live with me, but I am not La Owner Suprema and I don't have any interest in being that.

To me the basic issue here is kitty overpopulation. Mandatory spay/neuter with every cat license, and a fine for failing to do so.

[nd_deadhead]

Here are some articles about the impact of domestic cats on bird populations:

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/.../predation.pdf

http://wildlife.wisc.edu/extension/catfly3.htm

http://www.owra.org/cateffect.htm

About cat poo:
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...rnalCode=javma


The Humane Society's opinion:
http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/ou...rs_or_out.html

From the Cat Fancier's Association:
http://www.cfa.org/articles/safer-indoors.html

From Cat World magazine:
http://www.cat-world.com.au/IndoorCats.htm

Even PETA believes that pet cats should be kept indoors:
http://www.peta.org/about/faq-comp.asp?pf=true