Cats - indoor or outdoor? - Page 5

[zo's ma]

Ya know what, I treat my pets as I treat my children as well.....I meet their needs as I see fit. I am the responsible one, ultimately, for every decision I make, regardless of the outcome.

The judgement on this thread is incredible. Maybe, since I'm such an irresposible pet owner I should just dump her at the shelter.....she is pretty cute, and friendly, maybe she'd stand out amongst the 50+ cats they have and find a "good" owner.

[wendinbill]

We currently have three cats, 1 of which goes in & out. I also keep them seperated. Our indoor "upstairs" kitty we got as a kitten. She is small & is always indoors. The other two showed up as strays, so we don't know their history. Both have been tested for diseases & have been spayed/neutered. They stay in our basement. The female loves to go outside many times a day, while the male that we've had since November will not go out. I think he knows how good he has it! lol!! He was skin & bones when he showed up, and is now....gulp....16 pounds. Crazy! We do live in the country & have a problem with mice, etc. Martha certainly earns her keep!

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by zo's ma

Maybe, since I'm such an irresposible pet owner I should just dump her at the shelter.....she is pretty cute, and friendly, maybe she'd stand out amongst the 50+ cats they have and find a "good" owner.

Since she's an outdoor cat, it's possible she may be trapped and have to serve the same fate. I don't understand why anybody would want to take that risk with their cats.

[zo's ma]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

Since she's an outdoor cat, it's possible she may be trapped and have to serve the same fate. I don't understand why anybody would want to take that risk with their cats.

Then, as I asked above, please tell me what the alternatives are? And, no, not a cat run or a leash.....cos if that's all you got then it's just not going to work.

FTR, she's an indoor/outdoor cat, spending about 15% of her time outdoors.

I take that risk with my cat because it makes her happy. There are no coyotes here, no pissy, animal poisoning neighbors and very little traffic. And believe it or not, she does have the street smarts of someone much more advanced than 2 years old.

If I ever have to scrape her off of the street, yes I will feel sad. I will also feel like I'd done the best thing for her. I'd be thankful that she had a happy existance as opposed to a miserable one being cooped up.

You don't wanna let your cats out fine, I didn't set out to have an indoor/outdoor cat....BUT this particular cat, the one who I am the olnly one who has experience with, is happier going outside when she pleases.

I am no more an irresposible pet owner than anyone else here and I don't appreciate having that judgement made against me.

[UUMom]

I gave up on my first cutie kitty. She became an indoor/ outdoor cat after about two years of streaking out the door every time it opened. She lived for over 20 years. She was a lovely girl and we miss her. All of my children knew her well. She died in her sleep, in the house, at night. Until the day before she died, she enjoyed prancing about, inside and out. I can't believe all cats are happy indoors all the time. If cats have indiviidual personalities, and as a cat owner, I know they do, how can they all be happy with the same indoor, or leashed life?

[chirp]

you're right...there is nothing natural about getting hit by 200 lbs. of steel. or by choking and dying because kitty ingested anti-freeze.

you know, in my area, the number one killer of barn owls are cars. they also don't know how to stop and look both ways when chasing prey.

very few people would say we should ban cars. that they're not natural. and they're more unnatural than cats! i'm sure you would also not advocate locking up barn owls so that they can't get hit by cars. that its for their own good.

what i was talking about was natural consequences...as in one term...together. not what is natural or not.

i understand that my cat faces many unnatural situations when he goes outside. thus why i spent those weeks training him about cars and busy roads. i'm sorry most owners who let their cats out don't do the same. as a kitten he was very receptive to the training and i think it WOULD work for most cats. as his protector, seeing me afraid of the cars and the streets and relaxed when looking at the woods/field/park, it stuck with him. i assure you, he would not be chasing prey (especially birds, since the blue jays gave him a run for his money) across the street. everyone thought i was crazy for training my cat this way. my roommates, who actually saw the training, wanted to commit me. But it worked.

he did not go outside alone until he was about 2-3 years old. which in cats years is almost 20! when your daughter is 20, she may still be dependent on you...are you going to let her outside by herself?

i'm sorry it hurts your brain for an animal lover to want their animal to lead an autonomous life. maybe though, it has something to do with the fact that i've never really considered myself an "animal lover" as much as i have an "animal friend." some people like animals because they are cute, and cuddly and are at their beck and call, lavishing attention on their "owner" and only their "owner" because that is their only source of stimulation.

i'd rather a companion animal who can get stimulation from other sources, isn't just winding himself around my feet because he's been bored all day, and CAN actually take care of himself. it makes me feel good to know that when he comes home and he's hungry for love its because he's missed me as much as i've missed him.

i never said that i would be "okay" with ozzy getting ripped to shreds or hit by a car...i just said that i had accepted that as a consequence of him going outside. a natural consequence...of living in an unnatural world.

this conversation reminds me of the concept of the white man's burden. how white people used to assume that it was our job (i'm white) to protect and teach all the "others" in the world. that we had to save those others from themselves and damnation. now it's humans having to protect and "save" all the little, helpless animals in the world. animals weren't put here for our enjoyment, or for us to protect them. they exist, as we do, unto themselves. for their own purposes. with their own motivations. we need to accept that.

and like i said, if we're really hell bent on "protecting" animals. which i am, actually, then our biggest threat is habitat destruction. Part of this includes not introducing NEW animals to the territory, but cats are already here. The damage is done. Complaining about it and trying to lock them up when clearly not everyone agrees with that tactic, will not help.

Fostering growth of beneficials and natives, fostering growth of anything for that matter, always seems to work better than restriction and oppression.

[ColoradoMama]

Originally Posted by chirp

this conversation reminds me of the concept of the white man's burden. how white people used to assume that it was our job (i'm white) to protect and teach all the "others" in the world. that we had to save those others from themselves and damnation. now it's humans having to protect and "save" all the little, helpless animals in the world. animals weren't put here for our enjoyment, or for us to protect them. they exist, as we do, unto themselves. for their own purposes. with their own motivations. we need to accept that.

OMG - you just compared responsible cat owners to, well basically, the subjugation of native cultures? :

Domestic cats are not wild animals. I still believe that the responsible thing to do is keep cats inside or if they're outside keep them restrained.

[chirp]

Originally Posted by ColoradoMama

OMG - you just compared responsible cat owners to, well basically, the subjugation of native cultures? :

Domestic cats are not wild animals. I still believe that the responsible thing to do is keep cats inside or if they're outside keep them restrained.

yup i did.

i'm sorry? did you expect me to be ashamed because you laughed at me?

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by ColoradoMama

OMG - you just compared responsible cat owners to, well basically, the subjugation of native cultures? :

I know.

Domestic cats are not wild animals. I still believe that the responsible thing to do is keep cats inside or if they're outside keep them restrained.

Yes, exactly. Cats are not wild animals. And I am faced with this whenever I volunteer for TNR groups. A very small percentage of cats actually thrive outside as "wild" animals, and the vast majority do not fair well at all, not even here in the South where they don't have to survive cold winters. The vast majority of "wild" cats barely survive at all, let alone thrive and live wonderful lives outdoors without human assistance.

Any population of animals that depend on humans not just to survive, but to thrive, are arguably not wild animals. It would be within the best interest of that population to be kept in an environment that is safest for them. For cattle, that's usually in a fenced and/or blazed, gardened area. For chickens, that's in a fenced yard with a secure shelter (especially at night). For dogs, that's a securely fenced yard with plenty of human supervision. For horses, that's with an appropriately fenced paddock, sometimes with a shelter and/or stall (barn or otherwise). Why would a cat not deserve the same?

[kaliki_kila]

I think people with outdoor cats are assuming that our indoor cats are sitting in the dark all day in the same stale room, tortured to death from the boredom of it all. My house actually has huge floor-to-ceiling windows that are almost always open, peacocks wandering around outside, all sorts of toys, different levels of cat trees, treats, cat grass, catnip, etc. You can create a very stimulating environment indoors and it's not as stressfull as going outside and having to defend your territory.

[chirp]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

I know.



Yes, exactly. Cats are not wild animals. And I am faced with this whenever I volunteer for TNR groups. A very small percentage of cats actually thrive outside as "wild" animals, and the vast majority do not fair well at all, not even here in the South where they don't have to survive cold winters. The vast majority of "wild" cats barely survive at all, let alone thrive and live wonderful lives outdoors without human assistance.

Any population of animals that depend on humans not just to survive, but to thrive, are arguably not wild animals. It would be within the best interest of that population to be kept in an environment that is safest for them. For cattle, that's usually in a fenced and/or blazed, gardened area. For chickens, that's in a fenced yard with a secure shelter (especially at night). For dogs, that's a securely fenced yard with plenty of human supervision. For horses, that's with an appropriately fenced paddock, sometimes with a shelter and/or stall (barn or otherwise). Why would a cat not deserve the same?

alright, i'm done with this thread...just agreeing to disagree. it hurts MY brain to think that people can't see how humans attempting to subjugate animals and domesticate them has made them worse off.

just for the record...never said that cats, or even my cat with his crazy wonderful self, were wild animals. he is dependent on me, like i am dependent on husband to make money and husband is dependent on me to make "home."

why would a cat not deserve the same? those animals don't deserve that either. cow's and chickens aren't even genetically the same animals that they once were we've messed around with them so much! and horses...yeah the paddocks are doing GRAND out in the midwest where horses are starving and its being called a crisis because hay prices are out of this world and people can't afford to feed them anymore. i bet if those horses were still running around on the plains they'd be okay. i doubt the horses of assateague island are starving.

no animals deserve this. domestication sucks. i guess thats my point. domestication is what brought cats over here in the first place and has all your panties tied up in a knot. domestication is subjugation.
but, i don't think you guys are up to the task of seeing it from that point of view...and i grow weary of defending an argument i find perfectly rational.

goodnight!

[zo's ma]

Originally Posted by kaliki_kila

I think people with outdoor cats are assuming that our indoor cats are sitting in the dark all day in the same stale room, tortured to death from the boredom of it all. My house actually has huge floor-to-ceiling windows that are almost always open,

no, i don't assume that at all. i could say that i think many people with happy inside cats assume that all cats would be happy inside. It's just not true.

I have 35 big windows in this house, I even joked when we bought it that it would be a perfect "cat house", so many windows to sit in. I have 10 floor to ceiling windows. Nearly 3000 square feet to roam. It keeps one of our cats perfectly happy, the other? not so much.

[greenmagick]

For those of you who say its completely unfair to keep a cat inside and they must be allowed to roam outside, I assume you feel the same about dogs?

I dont think anyone is saying a cat should never be allowed outside, just that if you cant do it responsibly ( a run or a lead etc) then dont do it.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by ColoradoMama

no animals deserve this. domestication sucks. i guess thats my point. domestication is what brought cats over here in the first place and has all your panties tied up in a knot. domestication is subjugation.
but, i don't think you guys are up to the task of seeing it from that point of view...and i grow weary of defending an argument i find perfectly rational.

goodnight!

And letting domesticated animals roam will negate the evils of domestication?

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by zo's ma

no, i don't assume that at all. i could say that i think many people with happy inside cats assume that all cats would be happy inside. It's just not true.

It's to be expected. A cat that is unhappy inside is not the product of a crappy cat-parent. Cats are individuals too. I've gotten pretty creative with cats in the past to get them some much needed outdoor time, but I've never, ever let a cat roam around outside unsupervised.

One of my current cats is leashed trained, somewhat clicker trained for recall, I also have an x-pen with a top for her, and we're thinking of screening our porch. Roaming the neighborhood is not an option.

[greenmagick]

Originally Posted by chirp

no animals deserve this. domestication sucks. i guess thats my point. domestication is what brought cats over here in the first place and has all your panties tied up in a knot. domestication is subjugation.
but, i don't think you guys are up to the task of seeing it from that point of view...and i grow weary of defending an argument i find perfectly rational.

goodnight!

See, I understand this rationale....dont agree, but see where youre coming from. But, if this is how you feel, why would you own pets? so the point of whether or not to let them out is moot. Following the theme, it would be like someone owning slaves yet saying its awful.

[ColoradoMama]

Originally Posted by chirp

i'm sorry? did you expect me to be ashamed because you laughed at me?

Yes - that was it exactly. Actually, I laughed at the absurdity of comparing caring, responsible pet owners who keep their pets safe to the destruction of cultures and the death and torture of the its native populations. Yes, I think allowing domesticated cats outside is irresponsible. I would certainly rather see them with people who I think do this irresponsible thing than in horrible situations. People have different opinions about it. A dear friend of mine lets her cats outside. I hate it. Her cat recently disappeared, and she was angry about some neighborhood kids looking at her "lost" poster and calling the cat coyote fodder. I feel bad for her, and I also feel like she put her cat in a dangerous situation. I don't think she's a horrible person, but I do think she's making an irresponsible choice. She sees it differently, of course. I know people feel pretty strongly about this issue for sure, but your argument was a little more than over the top.

[ColoradoMama]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

And letting domesticated animals roam will negate the evils of domestication?

Okay, I don't know how it happened, but it looks like you quoted me.

[thismama]

My cats are indoor-outdoor. I wouldn't keep them inside... they are young, they have fun kitty social lives outside. My one got in a fight tonight though, hope there is no vet bill. They have kitty friends and kitty foes and places they like to go hang out. Birds to chase, neighbour car roofs to lay on, alla that.

I mean yeah there is risk outside, but ya gotta live, yk? I don't stay inside all the time coz of all the dangers and the un-natural world out there. I wouldn't keep my cats inside for the same reason.

I don't let them out too early (birds too easy to get) and I try not to let them stay out too late (cat fights). But cats like to roam, and that is fine with me.

Plus you don't need to change the litter as often.

[thekimballs]

Originally Posted by thismama

My cats are indoor-outdoor. I wouldn't keep them inside... they are young, they have fun kitty social lives outside. My one got in a fight tonight though, hope there is no vet bill. They have kitty friends and kitty foes and places they like to go hang out. Birds to chase, neighbour car roofs to lay on, alla that.

Yeah, alla that. Alla that is exactly what we're objecting to. I don't want a cat on my car roof; I will DEFINITELY trap any cat that I find on or near my car. I don't want cats fighting, I don't want birds chased. It's also illegal. Or were you being ironic? Please say you were being ironic.