Returned:What should Waldorf schools tell prospective parents? - Page 4

[pixiewytch]

Originally Posted by bluetrain

I wonder how many people know that Steiner Waldorf schools rae in place for manu to reincarnate

Okay, but who really cares?! I don't care if Steiner or some other crazy occultist back in the day thought waldorf was some sort of mothership to another lost city somewhere. Honestly, how in the heck is this relevant to my child's education in this day and age?

I mean you could use so many analogies and reasons not to do something or like something because of its origins. What matters to me is what is happening now, not what some texts written aeons ago say...and no, I don't care if they are in bookstores now with pristine covers. This is a free country and people have the right to read whatever they want. If you don't like it, don't read it. This is why I will never step foot in a Christian bookstore. They have nothing I want to read or care about. That doesn't mean I'm going to get on here analyzing the bible, christian schools, or how terrible I think they are brainwashing society in some way, shape, or form. I mean, geez, look at everything written in the Bible. I guess we should take everybody out of church because Christianity was founded on some pretty crazy things.

[bluetrain]

Calynde you said
"That's right...who knows? And who knows if their kids' public school teacher is motivated by such beliefs? Or their church's youth minister? Or? Who else? "

The thing about anthroposophy is that it's so obscure (the word isn't even in the dictionary) has cryptic and strange beliefs which are little known, and it seems those at the schools or whatever do their utmost to obsfiscate even further.
Public schools are accountable, hence the word "public" or "state".
In UK Steiner schools are self governing and accountable to no one but themselves, so a slight difference there I would say.

There are traumas, unpleasant occurences at all schools , of course there
are, no one denies that. The ones at Steiner waldorf do follow a pattern it seems, and , sticking to the subject of this thread, there doesn't seem to be enough told to parents beore they are in, and this does semm to be a deliberate policy.

And yes, we have done considerable research since being at the school, and leaving it. It always amuses me that Steiner waldorf defenders enjoy castigating parents for not thoroughly researching the anthroposophical core of the steiner curriculum before they go, relying on the school's promotional material and experts to give them truthful explanations and then, being surprised or even defensive when the information that is perhaps unpalatable is forthcoming.

[pixiewytch]

Bluetrain, you seem to relish a certain joy in stirring things up, which is evident by your smilie emoticon to other parents being upset. It just seems like you have made your point continually in this thread and others so doesn't it seem redundant by now? Everyone has had a chance to read your point of view and make an opinion. Let's move on.

[bluetrain]

Pixiewitch you said
" If you don't like it, don't read it."
I would rather the teacher's in charge of my kids didn't, that's all!

And I couldn't agree more with you when you say how the heck is any of it relevent to kids in this day and age, absolutely!
It isn't!
So WHY is it so important to the steiner waldorf curriculum?
Wht do they sing all the St Michael songs and make such a deal of michelmas?
Why teach kids the myth of manu rather than another?
because it's all anthroposophical, but they pretend it isn't.
I think this book is part of the teacher's reading list:
"“The ancestors of the Atlanteans lived in a region [i.e., Lemuria] which has disappeared...After they had passed through various stages of development the greatest part of them declined. These became stunted men, whose descendants still inhabit certain parts of the earth today as so-called savage tribes. Only a small part of Lemurian humanity was capable of further development. From this part the Atlanteans were formed. Later, something similar took place. The greatest part of the Atlantean population declined, and from a small portion are descended the so-called Aryans who comprise present-day civilized humanity...[T]he Lemurians, Atlanteans, and Aryans are root races of mankind.” [COSMIC MEMORY, pp. 45-46.]

Why?

[bluetrain]

Pixiewitch
There are other people on this thread who hold similar views to mine.
Someone had a tongue sticking out symbol, I do a smiley one. And?
Smiley symbol is not "relishing" anything, it is a sign of good will in my book.

If I have a different view from you, That's just that I have a different angle from you. it's called discussion, not stirring up.

I'm happy that I've made a point, but fail to see how my making it has been any more abouit stirring upthatn others on the thread.

[pippilongstocking]

Pixiewytch - Good post! I have yet to hear my children telling me about manu, reincarnation, souls, their past life, there are superior races, etc.

I chose Steiner education because it works for my children and they are eager to learn. The current state system in the UK is bad, it expects children of 5 to understand work presented to them, the children are categorised and labelled, they are continually tested, its all geared towards literacy and numeracy with little time spent on the more creative subjects. rant over!

Back on topic -

Festivals and the importance of them within the school and community.
The parent involvement and how important it is within the school & the community.
The fundraising and how important this is in relation to the child, school & community.

These areas are often overlooked.

[bluetrain]

[QUOTE=pippilongstocking;11075561]

I chose Steiner education because it works for my children and they are eager to learn.. the children are categorised and labelled, they are continually tested, its all geared towards literacy and numeracy with little time spent on the more creative subjects. rant over!

QUOTE]

My kids were eager to learn at Steiner and were held back because they weren't allowed to look at type or books. They were "catagorised and labelled" as sanguine, phlegmatic ,karmic what ever. they were defeated in their creativity by copying, rote learning, restrictions at every turn in any creativity or diverting from steiner's pattern of pedagogy.
I agree that the state system isn't perfect though, (that's why we chose Steiner in the first place! )

[pixiewytch]

Bluetrain, I respect and appreciate that you have a different opinion. Discussion is great...but at some point don't you feel that you may be beating a dead horse when you make the same point over and over again? Saying it more times won't change anyone's mind or sway them to your side.

As for the whole Michaelmas/St. Michael thing, I have never heard any stories mentioned about manu or atlantis. Maybe this comes in the later grades and I haven't heard about it but Michaelmas has been presented to us as a time for the courage of St. Michael and slaying the dragon which seems to be more of a Catholic/Christian connotation than anything else to be.

It is just another example of how if you dig deep enough and far back enough you can find some other reason for the origins of something but nothing like that has been presented at our school and I can find good morals and lessons in Michaelmas the way it IS currently presented without all of that business. Once again, not in the least bit relevant, even if some of the faculty is privy to some other reason behind it that I'm not.

[pippilongstocking]

Originally Posted by bluetrain

My kids were eager to learn at Steiner and were held back because they weren't allowed to look at type or books. They were "catagorised and labelled" as sanguine, phlegmatic ,karmic what ever. they were defeated in their creativity by copying, rote learning, restrictions at every turn in any creativity or diverting from steiner's pattern of pedagogy.
I agree that the state system isn't perfect though, (that's why we chose Steiner in the first place! )

When I went to look around the Steiner school it became apparant that the lower classes copy from the teacher and that the desks are all facing the blackboard. It was quite a difference to the state schools way of arranging children according to their "intellect" in little groups around circular tables and the teacher and helper popping around each group to listen in or help the struggling child 'if' they had the time.

Bluetrain I was aware that the painting was copied, I was aware that children were "catagorised and labelled" to the four temperaments and you know what - I embraced this because I did not like what was happening to my child in the other system nor did I like the idea of my youngest child entering that system. So far Steiner has worked in a way I could never have imagined had we stuck to state school and the rub is this - as long as my children are happy and are learning and have a desire to learn and to be creative, Steiner stays.

[pippilongstocking]

Incidently Bluetrain, only because I found out myself through many failed attempts and am passing my knowledge onto you ( because it can be aggravating when you post and find that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't) - when you use the quote button make sure you butt the words you wish to quote right up to the [QUOTE] and 'hey presto' and I don't mean that dodgy supermarket....

[pippilongstocking]

In fact Bluetrain thinking about this my children each have a plain book titled 'Morning Book' which they write themselves, copying or otherwise. And I know they draw their own pictures in these, that means they are using their own minds and creating their own pictures! No suppressive cult like copying - it is all from their own creative minds! Unless the teachers are drawing war like scenes and battles from WWll etc on the blackboard?

[karne]

Originally Posted by pixiewytch

Okay, but who really cares?! I don't care if Steiner or some other crazy occultist back in the day thought waldorf was some sort of mothership to another lost city somewhere. Honestly, how in the heck is this relevant to my child's education in this day and age?

I guess it's not relevant...... until it is. Until you're up against some totally bizarre or scary issue related to your child's education and suddenly it becomes real that all of that "out there" stuff that you mocked and didn't buy into, well it's actually the basis of what happens. Anthroposophy is the root of the tree. Waldorf Education is a branch. Unless you cut off the branch, you're still attached to the roots. They don't go away because you don't see them. So, it matters, because it may matter very much to your child one day.

A topic for a school to bring clarity to....incarnation, reincarnation and "problems with incarnation".

[pippilongstocking]

[QUOTE=karne;11076993]I guess it's not relevant...... until it is. Until you're up against some totally bizarre or scary issue related to your child's education and suddenly it becomes real that all of that "out there" stuff that you mocked and didn't buy into, well it's actually the basis of what happens. Anthroposophy is the root of the tree. Waldorf Education is a branch. Unless you cut off the branch, you're still attached to the roots. They don't go away because you don't see them. So, it matters, because it may matter very much to your child one day.[QUOTE]


Excellent point, I realise you have directed that at Pixey but if I could put my tuppences worth in, my immediate reply would be:-

That this could be applicable to anything we could experience in our life, education, social or working. Only when things go wrong one sees the problems.

Incidently, I am not mocking you because I too fell foul of what I believed to be a tried and tested form of education. It was only when my son was coming home telling me he could not understand the worksheets presented to him and calling himself stupid that I realised something was wrong. What broke the camels back was when the teacher told me in our 10 minute parental/teacher interview,( she looked at the watch after 9 mins) that my sons standard of Math was the year below his age group - he was only 6 years old. OK, this can be acceptable to a point as not all children are gifted with Maths but I lost the plot when I was told it was up to us to get him up to the required standard!

I stress that you have made an excellent point and will digest what you have written tonight!

Sorry it took so long to post this but the website keeps timing out.

[pippilongstocking]

Bluetrain - I take back what I had written about the quotes thing [quote] because it isn't working for me now. Sorry!

[pixiewytch]

Originally Posted by karne

I guess it's not relevant...... until it is. Until you're up against some totally bizarre or scary issue related to your child's education and suddenly it becomes real that all of that "out there" stuff that you mocked and didn't buy into, well it's actually the basis of what happens. Anthroposophy is the root of the tree. Waldorf Education is a branch. Unless you cut off the branch, you're still attached to the roots. They don't go away because you don't see them. So, it matters, because it may matter very much to your child one day.

A topic for a school to bring clarity to....incarnation, reincarnation and "problems with incarnation".

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not naive enough to think that something tragic won't happen to my child anywhere, whether it is waldorf or public school, or when he is out with friends somewhere. I just don't see enough risk out there to keep me from seeking out an education that seems a heck of a lot better than any other options I have. If I put him in public school here in Fl, his entire curriculum will be structured around testing and pushed academics. If I put him in parochial school he will be getting a strictly religious doctrinated education which I'm not in favor of, and if he goes to Montessori, he will have too much free play (which is not good for him, he needs structure) and there is still an emphasis on early academics. That leaves homeschooling which I won't rule out but is a hefty responsibility. You see, all of those things makes the waldorf issues you describe look like a walk in the park....a lesser of evils you could say, even though I wouldn't quite consider it an evil at all. I don't think anything is perfect and I don't wear blinders but I can only live in the present and if we are happy in the present there is no reason for me to question something that hasn't been a problem for us. If and when it does become a problem, then I will be sure to address it and take note.

[bluetrain]

Pixiewytch, I'm not repeating things any more than any one else, I'm putting relevent information to illustrate points...
We hold different views, but each is valid.
I hope you can respect that, rather than digging at the difference.

Karne, excellent post, thankyou.
"Anthroposophy is the root of the tree."

Absolutely, and it permeates all decisions and choices about the children.
Pippilongstocking had poor experience in state school, and to a degree, I agree, we did too! Tht'a why we chose Steiner....
But all state schools are different, my children are different children since they've left Steiner. They are confident, creative and most of all, happy. the light has come back into their eyes.

To get back to the origional question, with state school, you know where you are, with Steiner school, you MAY learn, once you are in, that it is based on an occult/spiritual pseudo religion, because you are not forewarned. The schools don't offer information to allow parents to make an informed choice BEFORE they enrol their kids, that its central teachings include karma and reincarnation and a detailed and specific cosmology; perhaps telling parents which books they studied during training would be a start.
Not keeping things deliberately evasive, because the schools believe ALL children should have this education as THEY believe it's right.

[Hannahsmummy]

As a Waldorf parent, I have been really involved with our school through fundraising, organizing events, working on promotional stuff and the like. I also help with the school tours for prospective parents. You know, a minion so that Manes can incarnate.

Anyway, in regards to the original post about what schools should tell prospective parents...
I have been on several tours of schools, ours and others, and I have had a very different experience to other posters. In our case I watched the tour leader go into the anthroposiphical reasons for many of the things the school does and most times the parents really just want to know things like "Do the kids get a hot snack?", that's a real question I have seen asked several times.

While I do think it's important that parents hear the basics of what a Waldorf education is about, I do not agree that they ought to delve deeply into anthroposophy with all prospective parents. It's not practical or possible to boil that information down to an easily digestible format. As an example that has been mentioned before, It's akin to expecting a full course on catholosisim to parents who consider sending their kids to a catholic school.
Like many things in life these days, it seems that people are less and less willing to take responsibility for themselves.
I feel like the level of information given about Waldorf schools is sufficient. As a parent, I find it flabbergasting that anyone would consider sending their kids out to a school with knowing all that you can about it. The information is available should anyone look for it.

I have yet to encounter a school that purposefully hides the fact that Waldorf education is based on anthroposiphical beliefs.

[bluetrain]

Hannah'smum I don't think anyone is expecting the schools to "delve deeply" just the basic tenets of steiner's belief system would be enough, reiHi ncarnation, rigidly follows a pseudo religion and specific cosmology, as i said before. It's not that complicted really.
I'm told I rpeat, but so do the steiner defenders! Oftensaying, i notice, things about full deep explanations, which no one has mentioned. it isn't an "all or nothing" situation, and we all know how complicated anthroposophy is anyway.
Your experience is very different from mine, and others I know.
The prospectus, for a start, mentions NOTHING about the spirit reincarnation soul beliefs, let alone the word anthroposophy. I think that is misleading and deceptive.
Another school here in the UK, the oldest I think, well known one, has a tiny section in its promotional prospectus which says parents may discover , after a while that everything is based on anthroposophy.
To me , that is a give away- after a while, once you are in.

I have read things by two ex Steiner teachers, trained at Emerson college, who said they were trained to not tell parents about anthroposohy and concetrate on the creative holistic side.
There's a discussion right now, with a Steiner teacher, on another chat board, who says there is a difficulty among Steiner teachers as to how to "educate" parents bout anthroposophy.
That is enough for me! How to educate the parnts about anthroposophy is the crux. They have the knowledge, parents don't. How much should they let on.
If you are happy with this as a parent, that's fine; happy that it's not in your hands, and the teacher, who follows the pedagogy of one man, based on his clairvoyant visions and world view of reincarnation and evolution; the understanding is, in Steiner's long view, is that those educated in this way, will be the spiritual future, recognise each other in future epochs, and lead those lower races who aren't as spiritually advanced.
But some of us would rther bw aware of this world view at the onset of our children's education.
Many parents aren't, and it needs to be addressed I think.

[Hannahsmummy]

Originally Posted by bluetrain

Hannah'smum I don't think anyone is expecting the schools to "delve deeply" just the basic tenets of steiner's belief system would be enough, reiHi ncarnation, rigidly follows a pseudo religion and specific cosmology, as i said before. It's not that complicted really.
I'm told I rpeat, but so do the steiner defenders! Oftensaying, i notice, things about full deep explanations, which no one has mentioned. it isn't an "all or nothing" situation, and we all know how complicated anthroposophy is anyway.
Your experience is very different from mine, and others I know.
The prospectus, for a start, mentions NOTHING about the spirit reincarnation soul beliefs, let alone the word anthroposophy. I think that is misleading and deceptive.
Another school here in the UK, the oldest I think, well known one, has a tiny section in its promotional prospectus which says parents may discover , after a while that everything is based on anthroposophy.
To me , that is a give away- after a while, once you are in.

I have read things by two ex Steiner teachers, trained at Emerson college, who said they were trained to not tell parents about anthroposohy and concetrate on the creative holistic side.
There's a discussion right now, with a Steiner teacher, on another chat board, who says there is a difficulty among Steiner teachers as to how to "educate" parents bout anthroposophy.
That is enough for me! How to educate the parnts about anthroposophy is the crux. They have the knowledge, parents don't. How much should they let on.
If you are happy with this as a parent, that's fine; happy that it's not in your hands, and the teacher, who follows the pedagogy of one man, based on his clairvoyant visions and world view of reincarnation and evolution; the understanding is, in Steiner's long view, is that those educated in this way, will be the spiritual future, recognise each other in future epochs, and lead those lower races who aren't as spiritually advanced.
But some of us would rther bw aware of this world view at the onset of our children's education.
Many parents aren't, and it needs to be addressed I think.

The funny thing is I don't actually disagree with any of this necessarily. My disagreement comes into where, when and how the information is gained by parents. I don't think it's necessary for the school to teach prospective parents about anthroposophy. I feel that should you choose to send your child to a school that obviously follows an alternative educational model, it should be your responsibility to research what you are sending your child into. To make a really simplified analogy, as a parent would you send your child over to spend the night at a house where you knew nothing what so ever about that family? I wouldn't.

Another simple analogy comes to mind. It's like the idea that some people blame fast food chains for making their kids unhealthy. It's not the restaurants fault that you and your children are unhealthy, it's the parents responsibility to know what their children are ingesting and it's the same with education.

When we went through the process of deciding if a Waldorf education was right for us, I found it very easy to learn about it. I sought out all the negative as well as the positive/promotional information that I could and spent a long time studying all of that.

I can understand the teachers having a discussion about the best way to education parents about anthroposophy. I do think that things like this can be seen as a positive or negative. Someone who is looking for a conspiracy would likely see that as teachers trying to figure out the best way to present their beliefs in a way that would "sell" it to the parents. Whereas I, a believer in Waldorf education see it as teachers trying to figure out the best way to present an extremely broad and complex subject to people who don't necessarily want or have time for that. It's not exactly a subject one can completely understand in one sitting.

We went into our school with a good understanding of what anthroposophy meant for my daughters education. I do think some credit is due for the parents who have actually researched and HAVE gone into it knowing what it was all about. Not everyone with a child in Waldorf schools is ignorant and many, like myself, actually believe in much of what Steiner spoke and taught about. I have belief in karma and re-incarnation and I also believe that the use of temperaments in the classroom is a positive thing.
The use of temperaments is also not nearly as outdated as you implied earlier. The modern version-Myers Briggs- is a common corporate and personal tool.

I guess my point is that the information is available should one choose to look for it. I personally think it's a parents responsibility to research what they are committing their children to. If I felt that the details of anthroposophy were hidden then I may have a different view.

I wonder bluetrian, being in the UK, how you feel this compares with public education here? I ask this because many in the US (a large portion of the posters on MDC) may not be aware that Christian education is a part of public schooling here in the UK.
For me that was only one of many factors that made us choose Waldorf schooling. I was very uncomfortable with the thought of my non-christian child being indoctrinated into a certain religion. Now, this is not something that is presented to parents when applying. Because it is just a part of the culture, it's assumed that parents are aware of this and it's just not mentioned. It's not an attempt to hide the fact but it's expected that you as a parent are aware of this. Public schools here also wouldn't conceive of teaching prospective parents about Christianity when they are looking into the school even when children are actually sent to Christian services!

Anyway, I am starting to go on here and i need to get to school and pick up my daughter.

[bluetrain]

Thanks for your reply hannahsmummy.
I have absolutely no doubt that the schools mislead parents about anthroposphy.
I agree that as parents we were naive to believe the teachers, and administrators at the school, naive to trust them; but really, we had no reason not to trust them, they were the experts, their prospectus just talked about the creative opportunities, natural gentle education. Surely they should *mention* the spiritual and reincarnation central element of the education?
You see, I find it hard to understand how parents who are happy with it, can't see that htese elements aren't even mentioned. They are blind to it.

After several interviews, visits to open days, meetings with four teachers/administrator, numerous questions asked, ( and obviously evaded, or lied about), none of the spiritual stuff, or reincarnation, anthroposophy was even mentioned!
I had very limited access to the internet, this was a few years back, and the books about Steiner education which I asked the school to recommend didn't mention anthroposophy either.

The difference with a christian school, catholic or whatever, is that these beliefs are open , generally understood, and not "esoteric".
We too are aitheist, and hoped for a non religious, creative school in steiner. we asked about religion, they adamantly denied it was religious. Of course it is! just an amalgam of many religions. How can souls, spirit worlds, angels , St michael etc be so central and vital to anthroposophy without it being called religious?

I truly don't think the argument about parents not researching enough holds water. The analogy about leaving your child overnight isn't comparable either.We READ the prospectus and promotional stuff, We ASKED questions and had INTERVIEWS,(more than one), went to OPEN DAYS, FUND RAISING PROMOTIONAL /RECRUITING days and were deceived.The anthroposophical, spritual, religious aspect of the schools were deliberately left out. That is morally wrong.

( St Michael is crucially important to anthroposophists/Steiner schools by the way, not just another nice festival,)