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to doulas who attend UCs - Page 2

post #21 of 35
I wonder then if doulas in Oregon would be less likely to have the same trepidations since lay midwifery here is legal.
post #22 of 35
maybe, maybe not. They could still be charged with practicing medicine without a license, especially if it is found that they are not trained in midwifery in any manner. Generally, lay midwives have apprenticed and etc. to feel comfortable attending births on their own. A doula may or may not have any kind of extensive training. And a prosecutor with a bug up their butt won't charge them with practicing midwifery, they would charge them with practicing medicine. Because doesn't one NEED medical intervention to give birth?!
post #23 of 35
Good luck, Fem-Earth. I'm not sure what I would do in my doula pants, honestly.

My UC-birthing mama pants don't understand why a doula would be wanted at a planned UC. (Yes, I'm reading what this mama is telling you, and what you think she wants, and what you might want in some future where you might UC)

If it were anyone other then a stranger contacting me for doula "services" (ie one of my sisters, cousins, neighbors or former CBE students, friends) I would keep their offer in mind, clear my calendar and be open to them calling when in labor. No contracts, no lessons.

My hesitation to help a stranger or have a business relationship is this: WHY have a doula in any place?

Typically, and I mean 99% of the time (and I am a trained and practicing doula), In my experience; I find it's because women distrust their caregiver, partner or self or the normal birth process and want to have a buffer or keep them safe.

I find it more personally rewarding as a friend or birth-teacher to show them (partner included) how find the courage to ask for what they want (from themselves, partner, caregiver or body) and not rely on anyone else to see them through.

Give a man bread vs. teach a man to make his own bread

be sure to let us know how it turns out!
post #24 of 35
Thanks, Rockies, but I'm not the OP.
post #25 of 35
Thread Starter 
She is researching UC on her own and I'll be interested to see where this leads her. I directed her to the UC forum here and a few other places.


The legal situation here is this: no foreigners can practice without a license, to get a license is almost impossible, doulas/midwives are seen as the same thing. And BTW, there are NO nationals here who attend homebirths either unless you go way up into the tribal/mountainous areas.


Which makes me think: If I'm not worried about prosecution, and doulas and midwives are viewed as the same thing, then why not be a monitrice if that's what may be what is really wanted?
post #26 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by feminine_earth View Post
Thanks, Rockies, but I'm not the OP.
oops.
post #27 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by courtenay_e View Post
Bolding mine.

I believe the major concern here is that the parents don't have to WANT to press charges. Most often, in the case of a prosecutor charging somebody with practicing medicine without a license, the parents BEG the prosecutor NOT to charge the person who attended said birth. However as a PP mentioned, witchhunts are the norm lately, especially in the midwest, and no bad feelings from the parents are needed by the state to press charges. They just take it upon themselves to "save" the ignorant masses from the evil clutches of the voo-doo practitioners who are the natural birthing world (that last part said with a great deal of sarcasm, by the way).

Absolutely this is what happens.
Any one on professional e-mailing lists, (doula, CBE & midwifery groups) we frequently read pleas from friends and clients of a lay midwife arrested for going to a birth and "practicing medicine without a licence".

It is never initiated by clients (so contracts are not the issue).
Even if you had a contract, a client can not wavier the law.

Half the time I think these local arrests are motivated by the strong arm lobbying tactics of ACOG members.
post #28 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockies5 View Post
Good luck, Fem-Earth. I'm not sure what I would do in my doula pants, honestly.

My UC-birthing mama pants don't understand why a doula would be wanted at a planned UC. (Yes, I'm reading what this mama is telling you, and what you think she wants, and what you might want in some future where you might UC)

If it were anyone other then a stranger contacting me for doula "services" (ie one of my sisters, cousins, neighbors or former CBE students, friends) I would keep their offer in mind, clear my calendar and be open to them calling when in labor. No contracts, no lessons.

My hesitation to help a stranger or have a business relationship is this: WHY have a doula in any place?

Typically, and I mean 99% of the time (and I am a trained and practicing doula), In my experience; I find it's because women distrust their caregiver, partner or self or the normal birth process and want to have a buffer or keep them safe.

I find it more personally rewarding as a friend or birth-teacher to show them (partner included) how find the courage to ask for what they want (from themselves, partner, caregiver or body) and not rely on anyone else to see them through.

Give a man bread vs. teach a man to make his own bread

be sure to let us know how it turns out!
Rockies,
Thank you for saying this so sweetly and kindly, it is exactly how i feel when a women wants a hired Labor doula at an "Unassisted birth".


post #29 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by courtenay_e View Post
maybe, maybe not. They could still be charged with practicing medicine without a license, especially if it is found that they are not trained in midwifery in any manner. Generally, lay midwives have apprenticed and etc. to feel comfortable attending births on their own. A doula may or may not have any kind of extensive training. And a prosecutor with a bug up their butt won't charge them with practicing midwifery, they would charge them with practicing medicine. Because doesn't one NEED medical intervention to give birth?!
I think the thing with Oregon is that lay midwifery is legal, and it's specified in law that they can choose to be licensed by the state or not as they wish. That's just what I've heard, too lazy to look it up now. I don't know that there is any kind of stipulation on what kind of training one has to have to hold oneself out as a midwife, licensed or no.
post #30 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewi View Post
It's a UC, if you want another women there get a midwife, have family or a friend come over, but don't 'hire" someone.
I believe the point is, in this case, that many women who want to have UC, would like to have a friend or family member there, in addition to their partner, just for practical things like getting towels and soup. they want someone to give emotional support to both parents and help take care of older children.
fair enough. get your mother or sister or best friend to come.
But in many cases (like this one), there is no friend or relative to ask.
These people are expats living in an asian country, with very limited family/ support, and NO homebirthing options of any sort, except for UC.
It's a different kettle of fish.

Like feminine earth said; I don't think fair to say that if a UCer wants another woman at her birth, that she must have a midwife or family and friends. I don't see a problem with hiring a doula for filling that role.

A lot hangs on what the parents expect of you, as a doula, and that you have a clear agreement from the outset. If you're hired as a doula to give emotional support, then you can't be expected to perform medical procedures during an emergency, other than basic CPR and calling 911 (and I know that where mamarabbit is, 911 doesn't exist)

Obviously, if there is an emergency, and you are there, you will do everything in your power to prevent/ save the situation.

If there is a bad outcome, you might want to have an agreement with the parents that you were never actually there, or something similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaRabbit View Post
If I'm not worried about prosecution, and doulas and midwives are viewed as the same thing, then why not be a monitrice if that's what may be what is really wanted?
I'm personally thinking this way too. (well, you know where I stand on it )
but I would make some kind of safety net, legally, that officially you aren't doing anything clinical. just emotional support.

and I really believe that in order to do this the parents need to be very well informed about UC and natural birth.
I do agree with the "give a man a fish..." philosophy of midwifery
post #31 of 35
I didn't read the above debate but I'm answering the original post...

When you doula for a UC what are your requirements of the parents?
Education and personal responsibility clearly being taken and well thought out - I'm pretty picky.

What kinds (if any) forms do you have them sign?
A clearly defined contract of what I am there to do and not do and what my scope of practice is as their labor support.

How do you educate them if they ask for it?
I probably wouldn't, if they are looking for me to educate them I would consider that possibly this is not a couple I would feel comfortable supporting. That's my honest truth ... I feel that there has to be some major personal responsibility for a UC couple... I might direct them a place or two but would not BE their education... know what I mean?

How do you perceive your role?
My role as a doula always depends on the family, but I'd firmly stand on the "I don't do anything medical" ground.

How do you decide if it's too risky of a situation?
I listen very well to my heart and spirit and usually pray about it. Like I said, I feel I can be picky in this situation.

What do you do if your role is more as a monitrice?
That would not be my role so for me that is n/a.

I am an unassisted birthing Mom myself and understand the draw/want/need for labor support without it being medical at all. I also understand that a woman and her partner may be willing/able and ready to take 100% responsibility for their birth while still wanting labor support. In that case I would feel good about supporting them as a doula - but I would not do so for just anyone...

I am pretty big on doulas and choices and UC choices and such... many do not agree with me but that's where the midwife phrase came from "A midwife for every woman"... it's our uniqueness that allows us to serve (as a whole) a unique group of women.

I'm glad that as a UCing couple we can find a doula to support us as well.
post #32 of 35
Thread Starter 
^^^^ Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I totally agree on the education aspect. They need to put in the time to decide what is right for them. If they do then decide that they want a UC then they need to put in the time for deciding what to do if XYZ happens. The last thing I want to do is educate and them make a decision one way or the other based on solely what I said.
post #33 of 35
As a doula I would not be comfortable attending a UC.
I am not opposed to UC at all mind you, but it puts a doula in an akward situation.
I am trained to deal with emergency situations that I may encounter as a doula. Ie. Baby catching, NNR, PPH, SD(somewhat) and could probably respond appropriately if the birth was to be a hospital birth and I arrived and the baby was coming(at this point I am legally obliged to call 911). However if I was at a UC and one of these situations arose I would feel obliged to act(and would of course!) but then I would be acting as a midwife, so the possibility of me acting as a midwife would be far to great. If they want a birth professional they should just hire a midwife to act as a doula for a UC(I would do this when I become a midwife) so to provide the labour support if needed, to sit in a corner if needed or to make tea if needed) but to be an expert in emergency situations, because that is precicely what a doula would do. Regardless of what our role is supposed to be if a woman is hemoraging or a baby is born with no vitals we will do everything in our power to save the baby and mother. Some doulas are trained to do this some are not.
Where I practice right now my participation in a UC as a doula would probably be illegal, I would be considered a lay midwife attending.
post #34 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage.Naissance View Post
If they want a birth professional they should just hire a midwife to act as a doula for a UC
maybe, but the couple in the OP live in a country where there are no homebirth midwives. nada. it's simply not an option. there is nothing whatsoever available between UC and medicalised hospital birth. that information changes things a bit, IMO
post #35 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage.Naissance View Post
If they want a birth professional they should just hire a midwife to act as a doula for a UC
I absolutely disagree with this as a UCing mother myself.

I don't WANT a midwife at my birth or I would hire one. They are different and the only aspect of a doula that I want (and I'm very clear with this) is emotional support. If I wanted otherwise I would hire otherwise.

I believe every woman should have this choice.

I understand that most would want to help in an emergency situation and I would as well if I were a doula at a UC that needed extra help - however I am very clear this is not to be expected of me at any level and I am very very clear that I do not expect this on any level from my own doula. I don't. We very simply want their emotional support should we need it.

Every doula and family is free to make their choice - I feel doulas and families should be wise and educated to the risks and pros/cons of hiring as they do (or being hired as they do) - but I don't think that a blanket statement can be made in re: to supporting UCs as doulas.

There are so many facets many don't or won't understand - but if others choose differently from me (or you), that's totally ok.
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