school issue

[kathymuggle]

DS, age 12, goes to school by choice. He could choose to Homeschool.

DS pretty much refuses to do homework of any sort. If he does do any it is at the last minute, and with numerous reminders. There are few natural consequences for this - his grades suffer a bit from lack of iniatiative - which means he gets B's and C's instead of A's and B's. He does not care about grades (or acts like he doesn't), so this is hardly a deterrent.

Here is my issue: I think if you choose to go to school, you choose to do the work (and the amount is perfectly reasonable. Assignments are a mixed bag - some are lame, but some seem OK). I choose to go to work - hence I expect myself and am expected to carry out my duties.

Is it reasonable to expect that if a child chooses to go to school, they should abide by school's reasonable expectations? What the heck do you do if they don't?

Kathy

[MarineWife]

The difference between what you do at work and what your ds does at school is that what you do can affect others, the company, the business, whatever. What your ds does at school only affects him. What's the point in all the work he is assigned at school? The point is for the teachers and the school to be able to quantify what he is learning. If he knows what he's learning, the grades don't matter. He's getting pretty decent grades, anyway, so he's at least absorbing the information the teachers are spewing out. Why do all that busy work if you don't need to? Why did he choose to go to school? If he chose to go for the social aspect (which is why my oldest ds chose to go), then the grades don't matter. If he's a smart kid (and what kid isn't?), he'll learn in spite of the school. It's his choice. Let him do it his way.

[beansavi]

I see what you are saying, OP. But my ds is the same age and he HATES homework. Ironically, gifted kids often make C's because they are so annoyed by mundane tasks like doing worksheets, homework, etc.

In all reality, homework is not allowed to be over soemthing like 5 or 10% of a kid's grade in our area. So you may want to call the office and ask.

Not that I am condoning your son's avoidance of homework... but if he is doing everything else nicely and is pretty coopersative for a 12 y.o. boy, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

But maybe I'm just lame!

[Lambartly]

If he's able to avoid the busy work now and still keep up, so much the better for him. It just needs to be made clear that in high school the grades actually matter alot more, and so you gotta do it all. However, homework also becomes less and less mundane as you move on.

[xixstar]

I posted a couple months ago about struggling with dd not doing her homework. I finally just gave up, stopped pestering her about it and decided it'll be what it'll be. She is currently talking a little more initiative on her own, but I know thats more a fluke than anything. I've also made it clear to the teachers that I feel, at this point, it is between them and dd to get her to do it and I'm staying out of it.

I can see the logic that if the child chooses to go to school, they should do their work, but having struggled with this for so many years, I've decided that it's just not worth the stress is brings to our house to push the issue.

[kathymuggle]

Thanks for the responses. I actually agree with what all of you said - and could have written your posts, lol. Sometimes I need a reminder, in my mainstream world were people are heavily involved in their kids homework, that I should not get into a dither over such things.

I think one of my worries is that he won't choose to or be able to up his game when marks do matter. That his non-chalant attitude will become heavily ingrained. I guess that is just what it is though - a worry. There really isn't anything I can or even should do about this if it happens. School work, is, ultimately, his deal. I also struggle with this issue because, in my life, being academically driven has been a good thing. I think he has the ability to do well, and doing well in school can be a boost to your self-confidence (heck - doing well in anything is often good for one's self-esteem). When I was in high school, no matter how sucky my life was, my ability to do well in school gave me something to cling to.

Ah....I know I am projecting It is hard to figure out with teens when one is projecting and when one genuinely has a good reason for concern. Ramble over

Kathy

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

DS, age 12, goes to school by choice. He could choose to Homeschool.

DS pretty much refuses to do homework of any sort. If he does do any it is at the last minute, and with numerous reminders. There are few natural consequences for this - his grades suffer a bit from lack of iniatiative - which means he gets B's and C's instead of A's and B's. He does not care about grades (or acts like he doesn't), so this is hardly a deterrent.

Here is my issue: I think if you choose to go to school, you choose to do the work (and the amount is perfectly reasonable. Assignments are a mixed bag - some are lame, but some seem OK). I choose to go to work - hence I expect myself and am expected to carry out my duties.

Is it reasonable to expect that if a child chooses to go to school, they should abide by school's reasonable expectations? What the heck do you do if they don't?

Kathy

ETA--I just reread. Your child is not blowing off school, he's just not doing A or B work. He's not letting anyone down, he's not having teachers chase him. You're not getting called to school---are you? My kid has gotten 'grades beneath him' . But ok, I'll leave the rest of my post. lol


Well. Whether you encourage your child to 'go along' would depend on whether you trust the school or not.

Nobody likes to do homework. My goes-to-school-by choice- child doesn't much care for it. either. (Some assignments are better than others, granted). But yeah, that's the deal. My ds is 14, not 6. He knows what school is, what some programs require. You choose this, it's only fair to not make the teachers chase you around...to drive us nuts with conferences etc. Also, my ds had several group projects this year, and it would not have been fair to his classmates. All-in-all, since my son chooses this, it obviously interests him. He does value most of what they offer. Dh and I happen to like the curric and programming at our school, so that helps. Plus, I see that some things take additional work outside of school...teens are better able to mamange their time, and if you are doing research, you might do that at night, on the computer, or you might need to seek out a resource is not at your school, but in the downtown library etc.

We help our ds manage his time, and we help by looking over assignments if he has questions. I feel it's a partnership between our family and our school. (Just read a cool report on a jazz musician, in fact). If he said he wasn't going to do anything the school asked of him, no assignments etc., I would seriously talk to him about it, ask him why he bothers with it if he doesn't care or respect it. Depending on his answer, I might then remove him.

We pay tuition, yes, but I would also not be comfortable with him attending a public school by choice, then blowing off all programming. It doesn't seem in the spirit of the choice. Currently, we are in the clear with this, as our ds is being highly stimulated and has a lot of motivation to carry out the great majority of the programming requirements.

[kathymuggle]

uumom (and others)

Would you withdraw your DS if he said he wanted to be at school, but his behaviour spoke otherwise? Would you have when he was 12?

Is he blowing off school? Not quite. I think his behaviour is just this side of "blowing off school".



Kathy

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

uumom (and others)

Would you withdraw your DS if he said he wanted to be at school, but his behaviour spoke otherwise? Would you have when he was 12?

Is he blowing off school? Not quite. I think his behaviour is just this side of "blowing off school".



Kathy

Yes, I might remove him. Pretty sure I would. How much does he respect the teachers or programming? Is there one teacher/subject he particularly likes? Could you meet with that teacher for additional insight? Removing him. could be difficult and may damage your relationship. It's not an easy question and I have to think on it. Anyway-- here's a c & p from my first answer. Probably doesnt help.


--We help our ds manage his time, and we help by looking over assignments if he has questions. I feel it's a partnership between our family and our school. (Just read a cool report on a jazz musician, in fact). If he said he wasn't going to do anything the school asked of him, no assignments etc., I would seriously talk to him about it, ask him why he bothers with it if he doesn't care or respect it. Depending on his answer, I might then remove him. --

[mamabeca]

I've had similar problems w/my dd (almost 10). She's in school by choice, and often blows off the work that is asked of her. Example, she is supposed tobe reading and 'getting' the tempest, a 4th grage abridged version of it. They are doing it as a class play. She says she read it, but she can't tell me the story of it. When I tried to talk with her about it, she walked away. When I tried to sit down and go through the script with her, she twiddled with anything available, stared off into space, didn't listen, didn't answer quesitons. Just. Not. Interested.

Sigh.

I'm going to let it take it's natural course. I was mad for a few hours, mostly because I'd stopped doing the stuff I wanted to be doing in order to help her, but whatever. Just part of the job.

[PancakeGoddess]

We've got some of this with our school-by-choice 13yo. I can't stand when he begins homework at 11pm. It drives me totally bonkers when his grades are lower than they could be due to skipping work rather than not understanding the material. They're As and Bs, though, so what can I really say? I wish he'd want to learn for the sake of learning, but school quickly removes that concept.

We had a lot of conflict for a few weeks because he'd agree to do homework earlier so that I could offer help and sort of keep track of his assignments, but he'd just not do it.

Eventually I had a sort of aha moment, being able to see it more from his POV. It hurts a bit to know, but he was no longer satisfied with his home education - socially or academically - and wants me to stay completely out of it. I know there is a big middle ground that we could find, because I'm interested in what he's learning, but he doesn't want to find that middle ground right now. He wants to have total separation wrt schooling. Even though I do believe his home education was quite good, this is where he is right now and it really feels right to back off.

His grades are good and he's learning, and there are so many other battles to pick right now (he provides daily offerings).

This has been a very helpful thread, thanks OP and other posters!

[kathymuggle]

I just read an interesting article on life stages http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/articles/072899.htm

It posits that children aged 11-13 are often in the throes of an identity crisis. These are really years where people change from being a child to an adolescent. They (and we) have to figure out how to navigate this change. In some ways it may be natural at this age to not do homework merely because it is asked. In the strive for creating their own path they are not going to do something simply because an adult wants them to (unlike children - most of whom, in my experience, do like to please adults). It also says children at this age strongly desire genuine meaningful accomplishment - hence busywork ain't gonna cut it.

The above is not to negate "refusing to do homework" but perhaps helps to explain (it did for me) why so many of our young teens are rebelling against homework.

I think, in another light, this rebellion is healthy. It took me far more years (earliest was 16 or 17, and I am still working on it today) to set boundaries.

Kathy

[pigpokey]

He is abiding by their expectations. He is making B's and C's.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by pigpokey

He is abiding by their expectations. He is making B's and C's.

I am not sure whether this is funny or sad.

The problem with the school being OK with his B's and C's, and him being Ok with his B's and C's is that he does not learn how to apply himself or practice work ethic, etc. From a curriculum POV I would like work that is more challenging and meaningful. Maybe he might do it

As per myself, and despite this thread - I am not overly grade focused. My concern in my OP, as it is now, is what life lesson is he learning by not having to do work in a program he signed up for. I would not say this thread has completely answered it (and maybe there is no "answer") but it has helped me to be a bit more tolerant of it.

Kathy

[UUMom]

If he's a basically a kind and happy kid, I wouldn't worry about grades at all. Especially not the kind you're talking about. I have issues with grading, anyway...

Are you getting any other feedback, aside from letter grades? To me, that would be more important. I don't mind "Your child is a wonderful, thinking person, but he's not working 'up to his potential' ". However, failing grades, no interest in things that once brought joy, or anger and fighting...that's what would matter.

A youg teen who blows off as much homework as possible? Sounds about right.

[lolar2]

As long as he has a comfortable, well-lit study space in which to do his homework, that's probably all you can do at home.

If it's available in your area or at his school, he might like a "homework club" or a regular study-buddy night (these are often offered at libraries, YMCAs/ JCCs, etc.). I always (still!) get better grades when I work with someone.

[Ruthla]

I'd back off. He's choosing to go to school, let him deal with his teacher(s) if the homework isn't done properly. It sounds like he's still getting decent grades so what's the problem?

[ricemom3]

What about if the child isn't getting decent grades. I have a similar issue with my 17 yo. I am trying to figure out if he's just not into it or if there is a medical reason for the poor grades and "not caring" about school.

I do think tho if the grades are good, maybe talk to teachers, see what they think. My husband was one of those. His teachers didn't give him grief about it, because he was decent in class and grades were good. He would go so far as to mathmatically figure out if he could afford to skip a report and still get an A or B in class.

[mommy68]

Well, there comes an age when the child has to start learning to be responsible for themself. I was told at the beginning of this school year when my 13 yr old (then 12) started school (private middle school) that we are responsible for getting them to school on time of course since they can't drive but THEY are responsible for keeping up with homework assignments, when to study for tests, when to do projects, etc. It's up to them to let their parents know when they need to do these things because they are the ones in the classroom all day, not us.

My son wasn't capable of keeping track of everything and he moves slowly and is very absentminded. I've heard this can be very normal for preteens and middle schoolers but it became unacceptable for us when he never improved no matter how hard we tried to help him at home. I made charts, lists, reminded him daily, and all that didn't work.

This is a tough age. My son had a very hard time the first few months of the school year and by December I was ready to take him out. He didn't make the choice, I did. He is much happier now.

My son liked school for PE, lunch, friends, meeting friends at lockers in the hall between classes - but he was forgetting his assignments constantly, forgetting to tell me he had major projects due until a day or two before they were due, etc-etc. He was in school to learn not socialize and forget about his assignments. I got sick and tired of driving halfway home only to be told he forgot a book that he needed to study for a test the next morning or something similar. It got old quick.

[kathymuggle]

Well, a little update....

I brought up middle school and asked if he had thought about it and he told me he did not want to go - that he wanted to HS! I was quite pleased (and excited, and a little frightenned).

Mommy68 - I think it is common and certainly not abnormal for a young teen to still need a bit of help being organised and staying on tracks. Schools, for better or worse, like to promote independance and persoanl accountability. Those are great attributes in adults, but 12 year olds are not adults - it is OK if some still need our help in this department.

ricemom - I could be worng, but I think low grades in older teens are often reflective of:

a) they do not want to be there, but do want to graduate, and are putting in the minimum to ensure this happens

b) They are scared. Both my Dh and my BIL goofed up academically a big time in there later teen years. DH actually flunked, and BIL dropped out several months before graduation - only to return the next September. I think they were a little afraid to leave school. Both men, despite their poor academic showing went on to higher learning eventually - my BIL went as high as obtaining a Masters.

I do not think there is anything you can do about this but talk to him. He really is very close to adulthood.

Kathy