Polygamous moms ask for breastfed babies to stay with them - Page 4

[nevaehsmommy]

Ok I know this is about nursing but....when the gal in south america had triplets AGAIN, every one seemed gun hoe about how it is a different world and how do we know if that was not what she wanted. Ok so these girls at the ranch are the same age. It may not be what we think is the right age or what have you....If that is what is normal (just like it is normal for younger mothers in other countries) Also I saw computers so they had acssess to the outside world *the computer was in moms room*

Ok on to breastfeeding. Nancy Grace has CNM and LC on her show last night. The CNM was telling why it was so good that moms be able to nurse the babies. Nancy Grace cut her off though.

My question would be if the babies are able to nurse now after being on the bottle for so long....

[PassionateWriter]

Originally Posted by zensven42

It appears that for now nursing children under 12 months will be allowed to stay with their moms to nurse.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9026403

On a personal note, I believe their civil liberties have been trampled on and the government has no right doing what it is doing. As it specifically pertains to lactivism, it should not matter what age the nursing child is, they should not be separated.

'

i totally agree with you..its so sad for those over 12 months. "ok, you are 12 months and 10 days...you get to go to the group home".

this just makes me sad in sooo many ways.

[frog]

Originally Posted by zensven42

It appears that for now nursing children under 12 months will be allowed to stay with their moms to nurse.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9026403

On a personal note, I believe their civil liberties have been trampled on and the government has no right doing what it is doing. As it specifically pertains to lactivism, it should not matter what age the nursing child is, they should not be separated.

So, as long as I nurse my kids, I can do whatever I want to them?

[Grannykat]

Sect children

The last thing I read/heard yesterday is that nursing mothers of babies under a year old are remaining with their children, and those with children between ages 1 and 2 are being housed "near" their children, whatever that means. However, all mothers under age 18 are remaining with their children. My feeling is that the women are as much victims as these children and if they are willing to leave the compound, they should be kept with their children. They need help too. It is unthinkable to me that they would abruptly separate nursing babies from their mothers!

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by mytwogirls

Oh my gosh, waterboarding? Are you kidding me? Infants? If that is true, maybe that dude needs to feel what it is like to have that done to him....

He may very well have.

[zensven42]

Originally Posted by frog

So, as long as I nurse my kids, I can do whatever I want to them?

I believe that they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their children PERIOD. Their children, their business. We may not approve of everything they do as a society, but that is tough. I've seen the brainwashing that goes on at various churches, schools, and homes and everyone of those people seemed to believe wholeheartedly that THEY were doing what was best. We have no right forcing our personal opinions of "proper" lifestyle on them no matter how extreme theirs seems to us.

In this specific case, where the children have already been taken, there have been no arrests, and no custody cases have been individually held, the children should of course stay with their mothers. If their (CPS's) argument for separating the children from the adults before abuse or neglect has been proven is that is it for the safety of the children, then supervision of the families together should be enough, and the children should not need to be separated at all.

As far as the judge allowing the nursing mothers to stay with their children at least to 12 months, I am amazed that this was allowed at all. It does show that some progress has been made in educating the public as to the how breastfeeding really works, nutritional benefits as well as helping maternal bond. It also helps set a very public precedence for future CPS cases in regards to lactating mothers and their children.

As far as the children being able to go back to breastfeeding after having formula, I don't think they ever had formula. I had thought the nurslings stayed with their mothers up till now. Maybe I am wrong. It is hard to find the facts within the multiple stories the media puts out.

[meowee]

Originally Posted by klg47

The water torture was the only thing that eased my mind at all about the babies being taken. I can only hope that Merril Jessop was the only one who did that and that no one else was involved in it.

We don't know that this was common in sect-- there have only been sensationalized stories from defectors about child abuse. For every horror story I read from a member who left the group, I read another from someone claiming to not even have been spanked or yelled at while growing up in the FLDS community. Which one are you going to believe? Or are you going to conclude what is likely true-- that there was some abuse in some families, but that it was not the norm (as is true in the secular world).

If these babies were "waterboarded" on a regular basis they would have broken blood vessels all over their faces. My daughter asphyxiated on beads for less than 20 seconds last year and her face was covered in red speckles and her eyes had red rings of broken blood vessels around them that lasted nearly a MONTH . No such evidence has been presented of this or claimed concerning the Texas FLDS babies. And if it was such a risk, why were the mothers allowed to stay with them? Did they sneak into the restroom to waterboard the babies in between breastfeeding sessions?

[leafwood]

This entire situation is incredilbly tragic. I really feel for all the children. I thought about the BF issue as the story broke and I think it's a step in the right direction that babies under a year can remain w/ mom to nurse. I'm sure it is a sticky situation legally, and I assume the mandate was based on the AAPs recs....and part of me wonders if there are any nurslings over a year (based on the close spacing of pregnancies reported).

I'm now off to check out the current events board so I don't get OT!

[~sweet pea~]

okay, into the fray....

Originally Posted by Grannykat

The last thing I read/heard yesterday is that nursing mothers of babies under a year old are remaining with their children, and those with children between ages 1 and 2 are being housed "near" their children, whatever that means. However, all mothers under age 18 are remaining with their children. My feeling is that the women are as much victims as these children and if they are willing to leave the compound, they should be kept with their children. They need help too. It is unthinkable to me that they would abruptly separate nursing babies from their mothers!

I was wondering about that... whether the underage mothers were being considered "children" in need of protection and if so, whether/why they would need to be separated from their babies.

IME, as a lawyer who specialized in representing low-income victims of domestic violence for several years, the state of Texas is in a bit of a "dam*ed if it does, dam*ed if it doesn't" position. More importantly, the law is a very dull instrument that simply does not have the capacity to fine tune its responses to address all possible situations. Would it be better if Texas' CPS had the ability to arrange for continued breast feeding? Absolutely. Is it realistic to expect? In a case involving a sudden influx of 400 kids into the system? Where the adults and children either don't know or refuse to tell which individuals are each child's parents? Probably not so much.

So my request to everyone who is horrified by what the state is doing, is that you put on your thinking cap and actually suggest a solution. If babies were not separated from their mothers, how exactly would that be handled? Would the state simply let them go back home to the compound? If so, it better cross its fingers that the waterboarding allegations were not true throughout the compound. Would the state make new housing arrangements for mothers and babies? This seems to have been offered and refused by some mothers who wanted to return to the compound.

It's really easy to criticize and make demands about what the state should do. But in the current world we live in, where social services in general are cash-strapped, understaffed and overwhelmed, ask yourself this: would you want that social worker's job? Would you want that judge's responsibility?

[frog]

Originally Posted by zensven42

I believe that they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their children PERIOD. Their children, their business.

Not surprisingly, I think you're wrong. Beat your kids and society gets to step in. Marry them off at 13 to their 50-year old uncle? Same result.

I don't believe that children are property, with which you can do whatever you'd like. Children are PEOPLE and they deserve NOT to be abused.

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by zensven42

I believe that they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their children PERIOD. Their children, their business. We may not approve of everything they do as a society, but that is tough. I've seen the brainwashing that goes on at various churches, schools, and homes and everyone of those people seemed to believe wholeheartedly that THEY were doing what was best. We have no right forcing our personal opinions of "proper" lifestyle on them no matter how extreme theirs seems to us.

wow, does your location refer to where you live or to your heart?

[phathui5]

Originally Posted by acannon

I don't know if they would use the pumps. They seem to me to be very against technology (although they might just be against technology related to media). I think they should be permitted to pump, but I don't know if the state will want to hassle with that or if the mothers will use the pumps.

They do use cell phones, so I don't see why they wouldn't.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by zensven42

I believe that they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their children PERIOD. Their children, their business.

You can't honestly believe that can you?

And if it comes out that the children were raped (which really what else can you call a 13 yo with a 50 yo)? Is that OK because it their children?

It's people with this opinion that allow child abuse to continue. It makes you no better than the perpetrators.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by 2shy2post

The point being made is that the mothers were allowing/encouraging the abuse. In the case of a child, if you witness a criminal act (of any kind) against a child and do not report it to the appropriate authorities, you are guilty of a crime. For example, Mom knows that her 13yo is being married off to 50yo man. Does/says nothing. That makes her guilty as well.

I don't know if this is reason enough for nursing babies to be taken from their mothers. That's abusive to me, and I think special understanding of the situation is warranted. We can't assume that these women are mentally or psychologically capable of advocating for their children in the way that the law requires, because of the restrictive environment they live in.

Also, the news reports I have seen say that the mothers who had children under 5 were told they could stay with their children. Many *declined* and chose to return to the "compound" (or church or whatever you want to call it). That right there makes me question their fitness as mothers.

Eh, OK, nevermind then. I thought they were telling the mothers they were not allowed to stay with the children. So even with what I've said above, I'd have to agree with you. Their natural instincts to be with and protect their children seem compromised.

Also, while I am incredibly Pro-breastfeeding... I would rather see a baby/child removed from the environment alledged here and fed formula than to remain in that. I loathe "rating" things like this ~ but formula is NOT worse than the accusations surrounding this church.

For me it's not the breastmilk, it's the fact that these children are being taken from their mothers, which I believe can be traumatizing to the child. But, you know, since hearing about some of the horrible abuse that went on, I think this is possibly the best choice. Not a perfect choice, but they best they can do, providing the babies are with loving families right now, and that's hard to determine. I have read and heard Carolyn Jessop speaking about her own husband and the abuse that he committed against the children, and it was enough for her to risk her life to get away. But I don't know how widespread that kind of abuse was.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by zensven42

I believe that they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their children PERIOD. Their children, their business.

I don't think this is necessarily an unusual belief. I think that for eons we have held beliefs like this, and it was people deciding that as a society that we need to advocate for children independently from their parents that was unusual. I think it's why children often do not get the protection from abusers in a family. When Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped, the situation was handled differently than Ruby Jessop, also a 14 year old girl who was forced into marriage by her stepfather and tried to run away, but was abducted again. When the situation was investigated, they did not separate her from her abusers as they did Elizabeth Smart. Which I find interesting, since when I fell and broke my finger and went to the ER, the first thing they did was take me into a room by myself, telling my husband he needed to stay in the waiting room, and of course they asked me if I had been the victim of abuse.

I honestly do think that there is a mindset amount some people, perhaps just subconsciously, that if children are abused by their parents, the ones who should protect them and love them the most, that somehow their lives just aren't as valuable. Very often we don't know about the abuse until it has passed a certain point and may be too late, and there is a feeling of helplessness which probably contributes to that.

We have no right forcing our personal opinions of "proper" lifestyle on them no matter how extreme theirs seems to us.

Hogwash. I've never used this word here, but, honestly, it was my first instinct. It's part of our humanity to want and protect innocents, we can't deny it or talk about it in terms of nebulous rights, especially since legally, yes, we do have the right to protect children from abuse, and that abuse is legally defined. And we have the right to lobby the law to remove those protections for children. Some people do.

[RoadWorkAhead]

Originally Posted by ~sweet pea~

It's really easy to criticize and make demands about what the state should do. But in the current world we live in, where social services in general are cash-strapped, understaffed and overwhelmed, ask yourself this: would you want that social worker's job? Would you want that judge's responsibility?

Amen! I've been there and done that. I've been the seperator of moms and kids, even small ones. Sometimes it has to be done and there isn't a perfect solution for how to handle breastfeeding mamas, just like I seperated 2 seperate teen moms from their children even before they abused them because the system isn't perfect . It sucks that these babes are being snatched from loving arms...it always sucks when babies are taken away irregardless of feeding methods. I( would be just as devestated if my young one was taken even though she is tube and bottle fed medical food - BUt given the facts as we currently have them, the legal abuse/neglect statutes in texas, and the reality of the social work system, they're trying to do the best they can, and good ideas are whats needed rather than constant criticism. Breastfeeding doesn't trump every child's right to not lose important bonds and critical times....But abuse does trump keeping them with the very people who may (as accused) have allowed them to be abused.

[ramama]

Even if Merril Jessop is the only man using water boarding on his children, he has at least 54 children. That amounts to a lot of abuse!

This case isn't really about polygamy per se, since a polygamous man is really only legally married to his first wife. However, it is an issue of forcing underage girls to marry and produce offspring. Even if the legal marrying age in Texas is 16, that is only with consent of the child. And let's not forget that the subsequent wives and their children are frequently living on welfare, since they qualify as unemployed single mothers.

A PP asked if a BF child who is removed from his/her mother can resume BFing later (sorry, can't find the post now to quote directly). In some cases a child can lose their latch in a matter of days (sometimes they don't, but it's a possibility) so being separated from the mother can lead to an end to the BFing relationship. That's sad. But if these mothers were truthful they would be that much closer to resolving this mess. The best way to get your child back after the fact is to cooperate. The mothers have often have pleaded ignorant to the laws governing legal marrying age, yet they know enough about laws to exploit the welfare system.

[tboroson]

They also know enough about the legal marrying age to lie about their ages to investigators.

[Romana]

Originally Posted by Grannykat

The last thing I read/heard yesterday is that nursing mothers of babies under a year old are remaining with their children, and those with children between ages 1 and 2 are being housed "near" their children, whatever that means. However, all mothers under age 18 are remaining with their children. My feeling is that the women are as much victims as these children and if they are willing to leave the compound, they should be kept with their children. They need help too. It is unthinkable to me that they would abruptly separate nursing babies from their mothers!

:

This is a cycle and very difficult to break. Members risk eternal damnation if they leave. Young mothers and children have been raised and taught to believe that outsiders are evil and they will be in terrible peril if they leave. This is tragic. It is a cycle of abuse and control that makes many/most of these young women victims as well as criminals (witnesses to child abuse that they themselves endured and now no doubt believe was necessary or best for them or at least superior to eternal damnation).

The whole thing is so sad. I wish nurslings - or any children, really - were not being separated from their mothers or primary mother/caregiver. I wish it was easier to break the cycle. I wish I felt I could trust CPS to really find a good solution for these people.

[annettemarie]

I'm going to close this thread and ask that you please post on the thread in News and Current Events since we are continuing to veer away from the breastfeeding issues.