Pre schoolers and Sleep *Update #15*

[cutekid]

I am going out of MY MIND!!! My DS is nearly four years old and in the past few months he naps on occasion, goes to bed when he wants to. Its driving me NUTS!!!
This is what i don't understand. My DS wakes around 8:30AM, is ready for a Nap around 1PM. We do quiet time which usually results in a nap for him. Its very clear to me that by about 8:30 he's ready for bed. So we go through be bedtime routine and then the insanity starts. First, he has to pee 50 times, then he gets out of bed numerous times. During all of this he needs water, the water needs to be put in the fridge. He wants the bathroom light on..then off, then he needs to talk to his dad, then he needs a toys, then he needs to pee again, then he needs to roll around the bed, then he's hot so all of his clothes need to be off, then he's cold so he wants a T-shirt, then he needs NO blankets, then he is afraid of the dark, then he cannot play with his shadow from his bed so he gets on the floor, then he wants me to lay, then he wants me to get up, then MOMMY Is frustrated and yells at him, then he cries, then he wants me back in the room, then he needs a back rub, then he doesn't want me to touch him, then he is hungry, then I insist he stay laying down he had a bed time snack (usually PBandJ because its filling) argg...
This happens 4 out of 5 nights a week. He's usually not completely asleep before 11 or later.
Any suggestions...what AM I DOING wrong.

Does anyone else deal with this. Co-sleeping used to work but this is crazy.

[4evermom]

double post

[4evermom]

It's possible he is having a hard time falling asleep because he is a little too tired. If someone is over tired, they tend to have a harder time falling asleep. So maybe moving up bedtime a little bit would help. But 4 is just a hard age, regardless. You might have to just do a lot of deep breathing and wait it out!

(I assume you are avoiding giving him stimulating foods like chocolate, ice tea, etc. TV and exercise are also stimulating and should be avoided close to bedtime. Maybe dim the lights and lower the sound levels as you approach bedtime.)

[Nolamom]

My DD (now 4.5) went through a phase like this. I think it was part of her learning to go to sleep on her own, rather than lying next to me or DH. She would need "one last kiss", or, "one last hug", or, was thirsty, etc. Very frustrating. Eventually she called for us less and less. Now, most of the time, she goes to bed easily.
I don't have much advice, just a "hang in there - this, too, shall pass".

[cutekid]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

(I assume you are avoiding giving him stimulating foods like chocolate, ice tea, etc. TV and exercise are also stimulating and should be avoided close to bedtime. Maybe dim the lights and lower the sound levels as you approach bedtime.)

He is allowed to watch right after dinner for a little while..and last night He wanted ICE cream for dessert. Why..o Why didn't I consider the crappy ice cream we bought.
Its not always that way though, most nights we turn everything down starting at 7:30PM. We do a bed time snack...I have found PB and J to be the best one since I Know if he eats it there's no excuse for being hungry. Then we do a quick clean up time. Usually takes about 5 minutes to put away toys and books from the day. Then we get all washed up, either shower or just a wipe down. From there we put on bed time clothes, brush teeth and hair and say good night to daddy. The last step is he and I lay down in his room, in his bed, and read two books. ......see the first thread for the rest LOL.
This is what I really don't get though, is that a kid can take a nap without issues but put up a real fight when it comes to going to sleep at night.

[Phoenix~Mama]

I know with DSD it's usually because she doesn't want to miss out on anything. She puts up a fuss for nap and bedtime... but you can tell she is VERY tired... her eyes get all sunken in looking and and she is just miserable. I don't know why she fights it so much when she is obviously tired. lol


But we found that if we tell her we are going to bed too, she seems more okay with that. *shrugs*

[leafwood]

Dd is just now four and we had a phase like this about 4m ago. This is now our routine....bath time, then she chooses who gets her ready (mom or dad) and we get lotioned, PJed, hair dryed, teeth brushed, then she can choose a 20min show to watch and then she goes to the bathroom, we get a drink of water for her nighttable and I lay with her for 10 minutes...during that time she can choose to read with me, play with me, cuddle, combo, whatever. I set the kitchen timer and when it goes off I'm out of there and the only rule is that she has to stay in her bed. We put art stuff in her nighttable drawer, books in her bed, a few toys, whatever. That was enough of a "draw" to get her to stay there and the first week or so whe was up late but now she just goes to sleep.

Some nights she'll call us for a new toy or something else in her bed and I get it for her. The first two nights of this routine were rough. She kept getting out of bed and eventually there were tears and dh and I just told her calmly it was time to be in bed and brought her back in. My main motivation for this (besides getting to sleep before midnight) was that ds was born in Jan and I could not imagine it going on with an infant.

Also, NO long NAPS! No naps at all on the weekends and at daycare she sleeps for 45min max (I send a quiet activity bag for her to use during the first half of naptime and then she sleeps for the second half if she wants). That made a huge difference. Still, she's up til 9:30 and gets up around 6:30-7.

Good luck.

[Rie]

I found with my DS just establishing some boundaries REALLY helped getting him through something similar. We too are co sleepers (the boys now start out in their own bed, but are always welcome in ours...we do have slumber party nights on the weekends!) and still generally snuggle to sleep, but it no longer takes forever.

My suggestion would be offer a bedtime snack after pj's but before brushing teeth and books. Let him know that if he wants a snack now is the time because once teeth are brushed and he is in bed he will have to wait for breakfast. Also prepare water to have by his bed so you don't have to get up again once he asks. Maybe ask him before he crawls in to choose the toys he wants to sleep with...once he is in bed the other toy he thinks of can have a slumber party with him tomorrow night.

Also if he is rolling a round and you are laying there beginning to feel irritated I would try saying something like "Mommy is going to .....let me know when you are ready to snuggle to sleep." or "Mommy is going to .....I'll come check on you in 5 minutes." The 5 min deal is how my DS learned to fall asleep on his own. But I probably started at 2 min and I continually checked on him until he was sleeping. Funny thing is if I would try and be quiet he'd come out of his room or call out, but if I unloaded the dishwasher or something loud he'd fall asleep...he just wanted to know where I was.

If staying in bed is then a problem and he gets out looking for you try telling him "You need to be in your bed then I will come." Rather than following or carrying him back let him get into bed then go check on him.

All of these suggestions worked for us. It takes a few nights, but stand your ground and they see quickly that they have the choices, but there is a time with in each choice needs to be made rather than endless where they can go on and on.

Good luck! You'll make it. Transitions are rarely easy.

[BusyBeeMom]

Originally Posted by Rie

I found with my DS just establishing some boundaries REALLY helped getting him through something similar. We too are co sleepers (the boys now start out in their own bed, but are always welcome in ours...we do have slumber party nights on the weekends!) and still generally snuggle to sleep, but it no longer takes forever.

My suggestion would be offer a bedtime snack after pj's but before brushing teeth and books. Let him know that if he wants a snack now is the time because once teeth are brushed and he is in bed he will have to wait for breakfast. Also prepare water to have by his bed so you don't have to get up again once he asks. Maybe ask him before he crawls in to choose the toys he wants to sleep with...once he is in bed the other toy he thinks of can have a slumber party with him tomorrow night.

Also if he is rolling a round and you are laying there beginning to feel irritated I would try saying something like "Mommy is going to .....let me know when you are ready to snuggle to sleep." or "Mommy is going to .....I'll come check on you in 5 minutes." The 5 min deal is how my DS learned to fall asleep on his own. But I probably started at 2 min and I continually checked on him until he was sleeping. Funny thing is if I would try and be quiet he'd come out of his room or call out, but if I unloaded the dishwasher or something loud he'd fall asleep...he just wanted to know where I was.

If staying in bed is then a problem and he gets out looking for you try telling him "You need to be in your bed then I will come." Rather than following or carrying him back let him get into bed then go check on him.

All of these suggestions worked for us. It takes a few nights, but stand your ground and they see quickly that they have the choices, but there is a time with in each choice needs to be made rather than endless where they can go on and on.

Good luck! You'll make it. Transitions are rarely easy.

These are all good suggestions, I follow most of them. Both kids (1 & 3) are asleep by 8 pm. The 3 yo, DD, sleeps in her own room. We do bath, teeth, pajamas, stories, songs, kisses, then I leave. I tell her I'm going to take my shower and I'll be back to check on her. Now she's gotten really reliable and easy about it, so I will at this point go back in if she calls or get water, etc. But for a while I was strict - she had to stay in her room, etc., b/c we used to have scenes like you describe. She sometimes has bad dreams and comes into my bed during the night and that's ok - I usually end up putting her back though b/c she tosses & turns & keeps me up. But at bedtime, she's in her bed.

As for the peeing, DD still wears pull-ups to bed, so I put a stop to the peeing as a stall tactic. I tell her to go before the bath & right before bed, and then that's it.

Good luck - it's so stressful and crazy-making.

[pinksprklybarefoot]

Originally Posted by Rie

I
My suggestion would be offer a bedtime snack after pj's but before brushing teeth and books. Let him know that if he wants a snack now is the time because once teeth are brushed and he is in bed he will have to wait for breakfast. Also prepare water to have by his bed so you don't have to get up again once he asks. Maybe ask him before he crawls in to choose the toys he wants to sleep with...once he is in bed the other toy he thinks of can have a slumber party with him tomorrow night.

This is what we do. DSD has a snack or three while we read books in the living room. It works to do it in the living room because it seems to set the mood that at night, bedrooms are for sleeping. I could see that if we read books and whatnot in her room, she'd be getting in and out of bed. We use one of those non-spillable insulated sippy cups for water. That way it stays reasonably cold and in the cup.

[LuckyMommaToo]

I'd drop the nap. I don't think kids that age need more than 12 hours sleep, and it sounds like he's just not tired enough at bedtime. It may be a few rough days as you adjust, but I think you'll see a huge difference in how easy it is to get him to sleep.

In addition, we use stories on cd for our son at bedtime, because he has a really hard time winding down. So it's teeth, read three books, snuggle, pick cd, lights out. He rarely calls us anymore. (I recommend Jim Weiss, any of the three and up, although DS especially loves Uncle Wiggly:
http://greathall.com/onlinebro.html#storytelling )

Finally, I've read about the ticket idea -- you let DS make three tickets. He takes them to bed with him. Every time he calls you, it costs one ticket, so when they're gone, they're gone.

Hope you can find something that works. Nighttime struggles are the pits!
-e

[Rie]

[QUOTE]I'd drop the nap. I don't think kids that age need more than 12 hours sleep, and it sounds like he's just not tired enough at bedtime. It may be a few rough days as you adjust, but I think you'll see a huge difference in how easy it is to get him to sleep./QUOTE]

I had DS #1 stop napping at age 3.5. Not napping he goes to bed between 7 and 8 and gets up around 6:30-7, its been that way the past few years, which I think is great.

The stories on cd is a great idea. That is what we do for rest time with my 5.5 yr old. He and my 2.5 yr old share a room so it doesn't work for us at night, but has been a lifesaver for rest time.

Luckymamatoo thanks for the suggestion of stories! We are always looking for new ones. I saw that my library carries quite a few of the ones you suggested.

[LuckyMommaToo]

Luckymamatoo thanks for the suggestion of stories! We are always looking for new ones. I saw that my library carries quite a few of the ones you suggested.

I hope you guys enjoy them! I wish our library carried them.
-e

[lucyem]

I think it is about boundaries. Snack, brush teeth, story, lights out. Both boys have their own water bottle. For my older DS I used to put him to bed and tell him I was going to do laundry. The machine was in the next room over. I would stay upstairs, deal with laundry, peek in now and then etc until he fell asleep. If he got out of bed he was told to go back and then I will come in. If he was "hungry" we said no you just ate and put him back in bed. My doing laundry allowed me to be there so he felt secure but he did not have my full attention sitting in the room. If he called out I would say just a moment and finish what I was doing before I went in. Sometimes all he needed was to hear my voice and he would be asleep 2 minutes later. Very similar to Rie's experience. We never yelled for him to go to sleep. But he had to stay in bed. When he was not tired we would allow him to look at books quietly in bed for 20 minutes. He was always asleep before the 20 minutes were up. With my second DS we are still setting basic boundaries. He is younger then my first was when we stopped co sleeping but he shares a bed with his brother. He has not started the whole avoidance routine yet. Its only a matter of time

[pinecone]

I agree with PPs it might be that your DS is over-tired. However, I haven't seen anyone mention food sensitivities, allergies, or food additives. We haven't officially done the Feingold diet, but I've read enough to know that certain additives can create sleep/bed-time issues. There is a Feingold thread somewhere here on MDC. I know with my DD (now 6yo) I've seen behvavior oddities from what seem like really healthy choices and know it couldn't be anything else.

Just another thought.

[cutekid]

Update

I am here with good news. The past week has been really really good in my house. I have enforced quiet time starting at closer to 12 o'clock rather than 1 or 2 in the after noon and it has worked out Wonderfully. I am thinking that my DS was actually over tired by the afternoon hours and was unable to nap or was so tired he crash napped waking in the evening hours.
My DS looks forward to quiet time. He gets to watch a Cartoon for a little while and then he lays on the bed for about another 30 minutes. He's usually asleep before the cartoon goes off.
Bed time has been made easier. He is actually tired when its bed time rather than being really wound up. I think he looks forward to actually getting snuggled up in bed because he hasn't been forced to go beyond his abilities for rational thinking.
I just wanted to let everyone know that things are working out now. As a mother I have gained my sanity back.