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As a Christian I have a difficult time understanding... - Page 8

post #141 of 251
I didn't say God had a plan for anyone to go to hell

I wasn't interested in Mansfield's religious affiliations. I liked her quote.

FYI, I'm Catholic and a practicing one at that.
post #142 of 251
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Originally Posted by Potty Diva View Post
I liked her quote.

FYI, I'm Catholic and a practicing one at that.
I know you are. I just thought it was interesting in light of the previous comments.
post #143 of 251
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Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
That is the purpose of the Church - to be the protector of sound doctrine.
But how do we know that Christianity is the truth, the doctrine to be protected? (Sorry if I'm going OT here).

Also, isn't there a risk of making the Catholic Church the focus of our faith rather than God?
post #144 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by beansricerevolt View Post
I was questioning this statement. Maybe it came out wrong?
yeah that came out wrong especially when it is taken by itself.

One needs to be careful that it is really the Holy Spirit they are hearing and not whatever makes them happy and then just assuming it was from the Holy Spirit because it is what they wanted to hear.
post #145 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasingPeace View Post
But how do we know that Christianity is the truth, the doctrine to be protected? (Sorry if I'm going OT here).

Because God Himself revealed this. He founded a Church, literally, physically - not "mystically" or metaphorically. He founded the One True Catholic Apostolic Church and assigned Her the task of protecting and spreading His Word throughout the world. BTW, this is why the universal language of the Church is Latin and why all documents are written by Her in Latin - to protect and be precise about the meaning of the words.
post #146 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
No, Crowley is just a contemporary 20th century follower, along with Blavatsky, Hubbard, Parsons, Sanger, et al., but Luciferianism is more of a blanket term for the much more ancient Babylonian mystery religions which go back much further in the worship of satan under his many, many names.
You do know that at least 2 of those people on your list didn't worship satan and neither do their followers, right? Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Maybe you aren't meaning they outright worshiped satan but rather satan has misled them covertly or something.

ETA- also "Satanists" don't actually worship satan. I know it's waaay confusing.
post #147 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
You do know that at least 2 of those people on your list didn't worship satan and neither do their followers, right? Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Maybe you aren't meaning they outright worshiped satan but rather satan has misled them covertly or something.

ETA- also "Satanists" don't actually worship satan. I know it's waaay confusing.
I'm not sure who you're referring to? Hubbard? Hubbard was a well-documented satanist. Yes, outright worship of him. Plenty of info availble on that out there. Read Arnie Lerma's website for a good start - very well documented.

ETA: Here's a link to Arnie's site to a well-known interview with Hubbard's son where he extensively discusses his father's satanic worship in their house. (warning: immodest image at top of article)

http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyn...rview-1983.htm

Excerpt:

Quote:
Hubbard: Also, I've got to complete this by saying that he thought of himself as the Beast 666 incarnate.


Penthouse: The devil?


Hubbard: Yes. The Antichrist. Alestair Crowley thought of himself as such. And when Crowley died in 1947, my father then decided that he should wear the cloak of the beast and become the most powerful being in the universe.


Penthouse: You were sixteen years old at that time. What did you believe in?


Hubbard: I believed in Satanism. There was no other religion in the house! Scientology and black magic. What a lot of people don't realize is that Scientology is black magic that is just spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or, at most, a few weeks. But in Scientology it's stretched out over a lifetime, and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology --and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works. Also, you've got to realize that my father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan.
Also, this book discusses Hubbard and Parsons' (mis)adventures together:

Sex and Rockets: The Occult World Of Jack Parsons
post #148 of 251
It seems from my quick googling that some of the information about LeVey and Mansfield from the site Stacy linked may be inaccurate.

Quote:
LEGEND: Jayne Mansfield, Hollywood sex symbol and actress, was a card-carrying Satanist and had an affair with ASL.

REALITY: Publicity agent Tony Kent, an associate of Ed Webber, arranged the meeting between Mansfield and ASL as a publicity stunt. ASL was smitten with the actress. Mansfield, who made no secret of her many affairs, denied knowing ASL intimately, and no associate of hers has ever confirmed any supposed romance with ASL. In a 1967 interview she said, "He had fallen in love with me and wanted to join my life with his. It was a laugh." According to ASL's publicist Edward Webber, Mansfield would ridicule her Satanic suitor by calling from her Los Angeles home and seductively teasing him while her friends listened in on the conversation. ASL's public claims that he had an affair with Mansfield began only after Mansfield's death in an automobile accident, which he also claimed was the result of a curse he had placed on her lover Sam Brody.

SOURCES: Edward Webber (interview by Aquino 6/2/91); interview with Mansfield quoted in Jayne Mansfield by May Mann, Pocket Books, 1974.
http://alleeshadowtradition.com/aslv.html

I don't know how accurate this site is, either, but just wanted to note it.
post #149 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasingPeace View Post
It seems from my quick googling that some of the information about LeVey and Mansfield from the site Stacy linked may be inaccurate.



http://alleeshadowtradition.com/aslv.html

I don't know how accurate this site is, either, but just wanted to note it.
Well, it would certainly be odd to pose for a photo of a satanic ritual with LaVey if she didn't "mean it."
post #150 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasingPeace View Post
It seems from my quick googling that some of the information about LeVey and Mansfield from the site Stacy linked may be inaccurate.



http://alleeshadowtradition.com/aslv.html

I don't know how accurate this site is, either, but just wanted to note it.
Yeah it all seems pretty conspiracy/cult theory to me in an outlandish sense. I don't put a lot of stock into all those satan/cult theories out there about various people.
post #151 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
I am LOL at the above because that is basically just a New Age spin on the Catholic doctrine of the Particular Judgment. That's pretty funny.

The doctrine of the Particular Judgment states the soul of every man at death undergoes a Particular Judgment where they will stand before the Lord and give an accounting of every thought, word, and deed, in their life and will see how their actions/omissions affected others from the perfect lens of God's omniscient viewpoint, not our own limited one. Then the Judgment of God's mercy (salvation) or justice (condemnation) is rendered unto that soul for all eternity.
It might be what is called a New Age spin but based on the testimonies of people that have crossed over while near death reported exactly that and it appears to be universal. When an experiencer went through the judgement like process and and experienced the results of his/her actions from the other person perspective the only judgement came from the self. The light did not condemn or rebuke but continued to love the soul completely. So much so that the soul did want to leave the presence but was told they had to go back to their body because there was still more for them to do. The after effects of the experiences were amazing. They became more loving and went away from typical materialistic paths to paths that involved serving others. If they were criminals they became law abiding. All this not because of any fear of Hell but rather they brought some of divine love back from the light and it was a compulsion to do good. They may join a religion or they may not or if they were in a certain religion or church they sometimes leave because fron what they experienced they came to the conclusion that what their church taught was not accurate.

Don't make fun of a New Age theory just because you do not believe in it. It may not be what you believe but at the same time it does not mean the theories are wrong.
post #152 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
Because God Himself revealed this. He founded a Church, literally, physically - not "mystically" or metaphorically. He founded the One True Catholic Apostolic Church and assigned Her the task of protecting and spreading His Word throughout the world. BTW, this is why the universal language of the Church is Latin and why all documents are written by Her in Latin - to protect and be precise about the meaning of the words.
I suspect the Orthodox Churches would strongly disagree.
post #153 of 251
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Originally Posted by ThomasL View Post
Don't make fun of a New Age theory just because you do not believe in it. It may not be what you believe but at the same time it does not mean the theories are wrong.
I'm not making fun of it, but as a Catholic it is amusing that it is essentially an aping and twisting of a pivotal piece of Catholic doctrine, which is what the devil does. You know there are also people with near-death experiences that report visions of Hell. I guess that doesn't fit into your theories on "the light."
post #154 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
Well, your philosophy on the meaning and purpose of life is nothing like Christianity's, but is very similar to what the average person on the street would say when asked the question.

You know, one of the things that struck me as so profound initially about the Catholic Church was the answer to the question "Why are we here?" My entire life, every single person I met would give an answer similar to what Thomas said above - that it's all about "experiences" and "growing" or some other such emphemeral, vague answer. I even gave the same answer myself when I was not Catholic.

When I first heard the Catholic Church's definition of why we are here (this is literally page one of the catechism) it hit me like a ton of bricks. You ready?

We are here to know, love, and serve God in this life so that we may be happy with Him in Heaven in the next.

That's it.

Short. Simple. Doable.

No mystical ramblings about stuff I didn't understand - just a very simple set of instructions.

Know Him, love Him, and serve Him.

And as the Church says, you cannot love Whom you do not know, and you cannot serve Whom you do not love.

Hence, the whole reason for the existence of the catechism - so you can know Him. Why would you follow His laws if you do not understand why He made them? You wouldn't. But the more you know about Him, the more you love His law and want to serve Him by obeying. That's how it works.
So if I am understanding you correctly when you became Christian you came to the conclusion that you are right and everyone else is wrong? That is one reason why I left the religion. I was especially turned off by Christian radio condemning all religions that are not Christian based and even going far as to say that all non-believers will go straight to Hell even if they were good people. You have to realize that just because something works for you does not mean it will work for everyone. If being Catholic changed your life that is great. Just the same my life changed for the better by embracing spirituality without religion. It works for me and I will not judge someone else for believing different.
post #155 of 251
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Originally Posted by mtiger View Post
I suspect the Orthodox Churches would strongly disagree.

Yes, as a Roman Catholic I am speaking of the Roman Catholic Church - whose official language is Latin. I am not speaking of the Orthodox Church that separated from Her in the Great Schism of the 11th century.
post #156 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasL View Post
So if I am understanding you correctly when you became Christian you came to the conclusion that you are right and everyone else is wrong? That is one reason why I left the religion. I was especially turned off by Christian radio condemning all religions that are not Christian based and even going far as to say that all non-believers will go straight to Hell even if they were good people. You have to realize that just because something works for you does not mean it will work for everyone. If being Catholic changed your life that is great. Just the same my life changed for the better by embracing spirituality without religion. It works for me and I will not judge someone else for believing different.
No, not at all.

I didn't come to the conclusion that *I* am right.

I came to the conclusion that the Church was right, and that She alone held the Truth, and that there are not multiple "truths" but only the One Truth revealed by God, and if that is the case, then I am obliged to believe and obey. The only other alternative is eternal death. I don't trust my own creativity to come up with a better alternative, KWIM? It is an act of humility and submission to make that theogical intellectual assent, if that makes sense.

No, I don't "judge" someone for believing differently, but as a Catholic, yes - I believe in the Church's dogma that "Outside of Her none are saved." So therefore, I would not agree to the error that there are many "ways" to Heaven. But, that is not judgment - I am simply standing and stating the Truth of God's word. Everyone has free will to think what they like, but that doesn't change the rules, or make them not apply, just because you're exercsing your free will to not submit to Him.
post #157 of 251
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Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
Yes, as a Roman Catholic I am speaking of the Roman Catholic Church - whose official language is Latin. I am not speaking of the Orthodox Church that separated from Her in the Great Schism of the 11th century.
LOL I believe a mutual excommunication was involved. We could go around the same circle for eons, but not all agree that the Catholic Church is The One True Catholic Apostolic Church. Likely a discussion for another thread.
post #158 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiger View Post
LOL I believe a mutual excommunication was involved. We could go around the same circle for eons, but not all agree that the Catholic Church is The One True Catholic Apostolic Church. Likely a discussion for another thread.
LOL - no doubt!

I personally do not know a whole lot about the Great Schism...
post #159 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
LOL - no doubt!

I personally do not know a whole lot about the Great Schism...
Really. Yet you seem so certain that the Catholic Church was in the right. How interesting.
post #160 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
I'm not making fun of it, but as a Catholic it is amusing that it is essentially an aping and twisting of a pivotal piece of Catholic doctrine, which is what the devil does. You know there are also people with near-death experiences that report visions of Hell. I guess that doesn't fit into your theories on "the light."
I am glad you brought up the visions or experiences of Hell. Yes it is true there are some very distressing NDEs involving a hellish enviroment but in all these cases they had a very negative state of mind and the power to manifest feelings or thoughts is very powerful there. The difference in these cases versus church doctrine was these people were rescued as soon as they called out for help. Read the case of Howard Storm by googling his name. Other NDERs who witnessed others suffering in Hell had the strong impression that all these souls had to do was choose not to be there. Basically it was a self created reality. As for the Devil if there is such as thing it was created collectively by thoughts. Thoughts are things. One question no one has been able to answer when I asked is if there really is a devil why was'nt the devil cast into some far away galaxy where it would have been all alone with his fellow trouble makers and have been unable to corrupt God's creation?

I want to add one more thing about NDEs and Hell. One experiencer who went to the light thought he deserved Hell. God told him there is no such place. The soul insisted that he need to fry himself because of his sins so the light told him to create his own Hell which the soul did. When he got tired of frying himself he said to the light that there really is no Hell is there? The light responded with humor and said that's right.
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