As a Christian I have a difficult time understanding... - Page 3

[holyhelianthus]

Oriole~ I have gone through this with myself so many times. I left the LDS church for a mirade of reasons some of which you have touched on. I, after all, had my first little girl as an unwed teen. But I have returned and my thinking has changed on a lot of things.

Originally Posted by Oriole

*** I can't believe that something as beautiful as making love to a your soulmate can be sinful and needs forgiveness, just because you are/were not married in Church....

<snip>

*** If homosexuality is such an awful sin, then how can there be so many kind and wonderful people who find happiness for themselves and others in this difficult life? Why in the world should they feel bad about who they are if God created them that way in the first place?

This is my thought- sin is not the pure eeeeeeevil pit of filth that I once thought. Of course it's wrong, but does it equate to horrible ugly people? In my faith we believe we are here to progress to become like our Heavenly Father. He has asked us to refrain from doing things and to make sure to do others. It's like a training course. Because we are here to grow and be tested naturally we need obstacles. One of the Book of Mormon scriptures says "the natural man is an enemy to God" I don't take this as meaning the Lord hates us but rather that by our nature we are not ready to be like Him and that is why we need to rise above a lot of things (not all) that are in our nature.

I don't believe being homosexual (acting on it, not the natural inclination) or being unmarried and having sex, etc makes one an evil disgusting person in the least. I do believe that the Lord has asked us to refrain so that we can grow (think those who chose celibacy to reach enlightenment).

So, yeah, sin is vile and we should abhor it but that's because it prevents us from growing among other things. To say that because so and so had sex before marriage they are gross and doomed to hell I think misses the point of this life altogether. We are on one really big retreat searching for enlightenment.

I have to say I don't speak for all members of my faith. These are my thoughts. If I had a nickel for every "[insert action here] is filthy and I won't even look at the person who did it" I'd be very rich.

*** I can't believe that a kind, loving, and generous person that was not baptised will end up in some horrible place just because they have not accepted Christianity as their religion as I have.

I don't believe this either. But, then again, I believe we are judged by our works and who we are. I also believe the Lord gives us all a chance to come unto Him in whatever which way- it just so happens it might not be conventional.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by frog

Homosexuality isn't fornication. Good grief.

Astoria, I'm an Episcopalian, too. I like how Gene Robinson (he's a fornicator like me! ) describes it: Advanced Placement spirituality.

any sex outside of marriage (with one person or 6, with same sex or opposite, real people or not. anything besides sex with your spouse) is fornication. it doesn't make you bad or unredeemable but God has a very high standard. it doesn't always make sense to me and it doesn't have to. but just as a clarification of terms . . . .fornication is any sexual activities outside of a marriage. I don't apply Christian standards to those who aren't Christians but for those who want to follow Christ and his Father thats their standard.

and it could be argued that all sin is natural. I mean lets face it. no one really forces themselves to sin much. it comes pretty naturally. we all called to struggle against our natural inclinations, the passion and lusts and desires of the flesh, and move towards to a higher calling. picking up our cross and following Christ and dying to ourselves. Sex is natural. Pleasure seeking activities of all sorts are natural. That doesn't mean that all things are allowable just because they are natural or feel great.

and there is nothing wrong with just having a loving relationship with someone. but in my opinion if there is no sex involved then it is just a friendship. and there are no rules about who we can be friends with so long as the relationship doesn't lead us into sin.

[frog]

Originally Posted by lilyka

any sex outside of marriage (with one person or 6, with same sex or opposite, real people or not. anything besides sex with your spouse) is fornication.

And I think this is hogwash. I don't have access to marriage because humans are in charge of the laws, not because I'm out humping everything in a skirt.

[mamabadger]

This is such a big question, I am only going to try and deal with a very small aspect of it.

Most modern Christians believe that God approves of the things they find good. It is a way of turning things around: instead of asking, "What has God/the Prophets/the Saints told us is the best way to be closer to God and to seek salvation?" they say, "This is what I find good, so I am sure God feels the same."

The problem with this attitude is that, according to the traditional Christian interpretation, human beings are fallen, and prone to like things that are not good or beneficial.

Many denominations support and defend whatever is the current attitude on moral and ethical issues. They are flexible about divorce, most sexual behavior, abortion, and so forth. Because most of us agree with their policies, we describe them as "fair," "enlightened," "open minded". All they really are is in step with the times. The same church, during the Victorian era, might have opposed women's right to vote or own property, because that was the popular thinking of the time. A century earlier, they would have defended slavery as consistent with Christian principles. Ideas are not good, much less Christian, just because they are currently popular.

[Potty Diva]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

This is such a big question, I am only going to try and deal with a very small aspect of it.

Most modern Christians believe that God approves of the things they find good. It is a way of turning things around: instead of asking, "What has God/the Prophets/the Saints told us is the best way to be closer to God and to seek salvation?" they say, "This is what I find good, so I am sure God feels the same."

The problem with this attitude is that, according to the traditional Christian interpretation, human beings are fallen, and prone to like things that are not good or beneficial.

Many denominations support and defend whatever is the current attitude on moral and ethical issues. They are flexible about divorce, most sexual behavior, abortion, and so forth. Because most of us agree with their policies, we describe them as "fair," "enlightened," "open minded". All they really are is in step with the times. The same church, during the Victorian era, might have opposed women's right to vote or own property, because that was the popular thinking of the time. A century earlier, they would have defended slavery as consistent with Christian principles. Ideas are not good, much less Christian, just because they are currently popular.

This is such a fabulous post. Thank you.

[holyhelianthus]

Great post, mamabadger!

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by daricsmami

It isn't a Christian doctrine that one should be married civilly before engaging in sex? I don't know of any mainstream Christian denominations that recognize commitment ceremonies or similar. I know Church of Christ and UU do, but I'm thinking more like Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, etc. Sadly, civil marriage and marriage within a church have become one in the same.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

actually some churches will accept a church marriage without a civil marriage. some very fundamental sects are refusing to be any part of civil marriage. Some will only accept marriage inside of their of their church regardless of what civil authorities call you. A church marriage and a civil marriage are two different things often completely independent of the other.

[mtiger]

At the end of the day, each of us will (if this is what we believe) have to face our Maker and confront/defend our actions. Not a one of us is perfect, and I'd be willing to wager that each of us has parts of our past or present that go against the teachings of our Church. I certainly know I do.

I don't for a moment believe that God hates or will condemn someone solely for who they love. Nor for forming a loving partnership and life based on that - regardless of gender. Yes, this goes against the teachings of my Church. I guess I'll have to answer for that some day.

I would hope that the God I pray to will weigh ALL of our actions and behaviors prior to judging us. I suspect He will.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by frog

And I think this is hogwash. I don't have access to marriage because humans are in charge of the laws, not because I'm out humping everything in a skirt.

but you are confusing civil marriage with church marriage. not all civil marriages are accepted by the church (heterosexual and homosexual alike) because it is about more than civil authorities giving it a stamp of approval. heck my SIL is married to her wife as legally as it comes but my church would never recognize regardless of what the government says. and some churches will accept a marriage even if the civil authorities don't. (her marriage may or may not be legally recognized here but I am sure there are some religions that will recognize it) Churches in general really don't care about the government and their view of marriage (or anything else) when it comes to what is sin and what is sacred and holy. just because something is legal doesn't make it less sinful. and this applies to a whole lot of things.

and don't get me wrong. I am not out persecuting people or binding people up and dragging them to confession by force. what you believe and what you do is your business. someone asked my opinion and I gave it to them. there are all kinds of ways to have sex and have fun but sex belongs inside marriage the way God designed marriage (I also believe sex with the intent of avoiding the consequences and grave responsibility of procreation is sin. not that it is wrong to have sex when you are not fertile but if you are intentionally trying to escape the reality of it blah blah blah people who agree already agree and people who don't want to hear it from me so I will stop . . . ) Who you want to love and be friends with has nothing to do with sex. and really what you want to do sexually is none of my business either but I know what the Bible says and what the church says and it doesn't matter who I am attracted to or what I want i am stuck where I am. and right now that means celibacy (both with my body and my thoughts and only relationships that will not pull me into sin) and I hate it but that is where God has put me for now. he isn't going to change on my account or make exceptions because someone hurt me unjustly or anything. no one said following him was easy. sorry wandered off. . . my point was that outside the church I don't care what people do so long as they are not hurting anyone. even inside the church I don't care what other people do so long as the church stands steadfast. i am too busy working on my own sins and desires to nit pick other peoples. but my original point was just because something is natural or pleasing or we were born that way or whatever doesn't mean that it is Gods plan for us. his plan is for us to struggle through our humanness to reach Him. to focus on Him above our earthly desires. To praise Him and live lives that glorify Him even when we think His laws contradict our will to pander to our desires and lusts of our flesh. and this goes for any sin. Homosexual desires are no lower or higher the heterosexual desires. Sex is not the definer of a meaningful loving relationship or a good and fulfilling life. but sex has a proper place. and outside of that proper place stands between us and God.

[CherryBomb]

Not a one of us is perfect, and I'd be willing to wager that each of us has parts of our past or present that go against the teachings of our Church. I certainly know I do.

When did anyone claim to be perfect? It's interesting how in any discussion of sin and modernity, anyone who actually has the gall to say "yes, these things that are accepted by modern society are sinful" is lambasted and accused of being self-righteous, accused of thinking they're perfect, accused of being "hateful" and "bigoted."

I'm a sinner. I have sinned in the past and I will surely sin again in the future, try as I might to do otherwise.

That has nothing to do with it.

God does care. He cared enough to send His only Son to die for me, that I might be forgiven. God doesn't HATE anyone, and it's beyond offensive to try and paint people who don't agree with you as thinking something so horrible. I might not agree with the "anything goes" mindset but I KNOW that God loves ALL of us, and I know that 9 times out of 10, the people espousing that POV are sincere, but, IMO, misguided.

[Potty Diva]

And I am a sinner too. I'm not proud of this and I know my sins keep me separated from God, but I am not going to crawl in a hole and pretend "everything goes" in my life and it's perfectly accepting and ok for me to do what I please because it makes me happy.

Sometimes I want to fast food restaurant hop and eat until my eyes pop out, but I won't because of several reasons, one being that Godd has loaned this body to me and because I am made in His image I should not and do all I can not to destroy it any more than the process of life already is.

There are many more activities I will not do because I trust and respect Go that he will provide for me. My life may not be a bowl full of cherries but I am not expecting this in life, so I'm more than ok with refraining from temptations and just "making myself happy."

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

Becasue in the end and ultimately, they have denied God. The kindest most wonderful, thoughtful, kind, and giving person can still be denied Heaven. This is my understanding of scripture.

I guess what I'm trying to say, through the years, I've come to believe in a kinder God than the one you describe, because to me if a person is wonderful and thoughtful and kind, the God I believe in would never deny that person kindness and peace in return. The only reason to that would be pride (i.e. "yes, you have lead a good and kind life, but who cares, you didn't pray to ME, so there... off you go"), and the God I believe in does things out of love and wisdom, not out of pride.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by Oriole

I guess what I'm trying to say, through the years, I've come to believe in a kinder God than the one you describe, because to me if a person is wonderful and thoughtful and kind, the God I believe in would never deny that person kindness and peace in return. The only reason to that would be pride (i.e. "yes, you have lead a good and kind life, but who cares, you didn't pray to ME, so there... off you go"), and the God I believe in does things out of love and wisdom, not out of pride.

I believe that too but I also believe that God has asked things of us and if we don't respect Him enough to do whatever it might be (or not do, for that matter) than there is going to be consequences. Just like any other parent disciplining their child for breaking the rules so does God. Life isn't a free-for-all, ykwim? What I don't understand is why God can't be loving and open and still enforce His commandments. To me the two are not contradictory but mutual.

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

This is such a big question, I am only going to try and deal with a very small aspect of it.

Most modern Christians believe that God approves of the things they find good. It is a way of turning things around: instead of asking, "What has God/the Prophets/the Saints told us is the best way to be closer to God and to seek salvation?" they say, "This is what I find good, so I am sure God feels the same."

I think love and kindness are universal. Church has made mistakes, but those mistakes were never made out of love or kindness. Those are not "my" values that I expect God to accept, or "the values of the moment", or a modern twist on reality that is supposed to ease someone's conscience for a little while until we move on to something else. Traditional catholic robes, traditional take on homosexuality, traditional take on premarital sex (which, by the way, I understand where it's coming from, but I was not talking or broken or unstable relationships, or casual sex, I was taking about your one and only person you are supposed to be with kind of thing), all of those rules and judgements are most certainly are not made out of love and kindness, no matter how you twist it, and that doesn't make sense to me.

I also wanted to add, that it's not as easy to say "I'm sure God feels the same" for me. Truth be told, I don't know if he does, or doesn't. But I sure hope that he does, because otherwise he'll turn out to be meaner, less generous, less loving and a lot more proud God than what I hope he really is.

[frog]

Originally Posted by Oriole

I also wanted to add, that it's not as easy to say "I'm sure God feels the same" for me. Truth be told, I don't know if he does, or doesn't. But I sure hope that he does, because otherwise he'll turn out to be meaner, less generous, less loving and a lot more proud God than what I hope he really is.

Amen.

[Potty Diva]

Originally Posted by Oriole

I also wanted to add, that it's not as easy to say "I'm sure God feels the same" for me. Truth be told, I don't know if he does, or doesn't. But I sure hope that he does, because otherwise he'll turn out to be meaner, less generous, less loving and a lot more proud God than what I hope he really is.

Really? Because I don't believe so. And nothing in scripture points otherwise.

So God won't be the mythical figure people have portrayed Him to be so that He will fit the image the expect of Him, then what?

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

Really? Because I don't believe so. And nothing in scripture points otherwise.

So God won't be the mythical figure people have portrayed Him to be so that He will fit the image the expect of Him, then what?

If I say that your only crime in life of love and kindness you lead was the fact that were a Buddhist, so no paradise for you, then how is that demonstrating kindness and forgiveness to your people? That would be demonstration of pride (i.e. I don't care how much you good did, you still should have worshiped me). That's what the scripture tells me.

You might be right (although, I have to hope for my own sake that you are wrong, eh? ), but the God I envision is more accepting than that, kwim?

[swimswamswum]

Oriole, I think that it really depends on what you believe. I was raised in a church that believes that the bible was written by men. I was taught that it is to be interpreted based on political and historical influences happening at the time that it was written. Because of this, I do not believe that the bible is God's word.

I think that a lot of Christians do not account for those who do not take the bible literally. I really think this is unfortunate. There are lots of Christians out there and lots of beliefs about God and God's understandings of different types of relationships. Many Christians smile on all kinds of love and perhaps you should explore different churches so you can find one where you're loved and welcomed as you are.

[Potty Diva]

and ya know that is all anyone can do. I in fact, could be wrong.

And I can't determine if you are going to hell anymore than I can gaurentee that I won't. It's really not my business, ya know?

I think it will all work itself out in the end. So to speak.

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

I think it will all work itself out in the end. So to speak.