why can't a woman be more like a...

[applejuice]

robot! Henry Higgins would be proud!!

http://www.livescience.com/technolog...bot_birth.html

Noelle, a robot, like resusa-Annie for the CPR courses, gives programmed birth, teaching us all how it should be done.

more: http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/16/p...ts-give-birth/

[prothyraia]

And the robot is bad why?

[applejuice]

I think there are plenty of women in labor everyday in hospitals around the country that we can learn about labor from. Doctors need to learn to relate to human beings and not machines. There is already enough of a problem with EFMs, external and internal, taking precedence over and pulling the hospital staff's attention from the human woman that is actually having the baby.

No machine has ever replaced a human being. It still takes a human to plug the darn thing in.

[honeybee]

I guess I'd rather students get training on a manequin than me. Call me silly.

And like any training, the quality depends on the humans running it. In the article, the nurse mentioned the gown being opened, which wouldn't matter to a dummy, but would to a real live person.

The problem is when real women in labor are treated like a dummy, which was happening long before these robots appeared on the scene. So, I don't think the robot's going to make this worse.

[kittywitty]

:Puke

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by honeybee

I guess I'd rather students get training on a manequin than me. Call me silly.

And like any training, the quality depends on the humans running it. In the article, the nurse mentioned the gown being opened, which wouldn't matter to a dummy, but would to a real live person.

The problem is when real women in labor are treated like a dummy, which was happening long before these robots appeared on the scene. So, I don't think the robot's going to make this worse.

Wouldn't it be great if the students were docked points every time they failed to treat the robot like a person?

"I'm sorry Mr. Jones, you're going to have to start over, you asked Noelle a leading question about episiotomy when the birth plan for this scenario clearly stated that she'd rather tear."

"Ms. Smith, might I remind you that your patient's rear end is exposed? Noelle is a modest woman in this scenario, what do you think is happening to her tension levels. Start over!"

"Ms. Fredrickson, why are you pushing an epidural at this stage? Noelle made a noise you say? Ms. Fredrickson, I suggest you review the labor sound tape files and learn to better distinguish effort from pain. Noelle was not "shouting in agony" as you put it, she was grunting with physical effort. I'm afraid we won't be able to let you near real women until you can tell the difference. Also, when Noelle says "no" to the epidural the appropriate response is to accept Noelle's wishes. Go review and come back tomorrow to try again."

[amitymama]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Wouldn't it be great if the students were docked points every time they failed to treat the robot like a person?

"I'm sorry Mr. Jones, you're going to have to start over, you asked Noelle a leading question about episiotomy when the birth plan for this scenario clearly stated that she'd rather tear."

"Ms. Smith, might I remind you that your patient's rear end is exposed? Noelle is a modest woman in this scenario, what do you think is happening to her tension levels. Start over!"

"Ms. Fredrickson, why are you pushing an epidural at this stage? Noelle made a noise you say? Ms. Fredrickson, I suggest you review the labor sound tape files and learn to better distinguish effort from pain. Noelle was not "shouting in agony" as you put it, she was grunting with physical effort. I'm afraid we won't be able to let you near real women until you can tell the difference. Also, when Noelle says "no" to the epidural the appropriate response is to accept Noelle's wishes. Go review and come back tomorrow to try again."

Yeah, if only! That's exactly what they should be doing. Shame they don't. :

[Mosaic]

Wow! I looked Noelle up online, and these robots are cah-razy! They even have a placenta with detachable fragments, "reusable repair modules featuring tears of the labia and periurethra", and a "new pp hemorrhage feature." Who knew you could do that with a robot?

Here's more info & pics: http://www.gaumard.com/products.asp

[applejuice]

Need I remind you that humans are not machines?

There already is a problem with hospital staff ignoring the human on the bed and paying attention to all of the machinery instead. There is a person with real feelings attached to all of the contraptions.

If working with robots and computer IS the same as working with humans, then why do biology students still do dissections on real animals? PETA has been pressing for computer modules for over a decade, yet biology labs still go through this ritual in their classes.

I think we have our priorities mixed up. Would a midwifery course include this? I used a baby doll to teach my CB prep classes, with the warning that it was not exactly the same. Do you think these med students are told the same?

[barefootpoetry]

Noelle seems to be a double-edged sword. Like a PP said, I'd rather med students be practicing on a robot than ME, or any other live woman, but working on a plastic model of a human is never going to compare to doing the exact same thing to a real person, for many reasons. And I'm a little afraid that it would deaden future CPs even more to the needs of a living breathing woman...as if the situation isn't usually bad enough already in that department.

I dunno. It seems to be a mixed blessing.

[rere]

Most of the care given to me during my pregnancy and labor was by a student midwife.It was a lovely experience.I was eager to help her learn and I'm glad she didn't have to use a robot.She was able to learn to care for me as a person at the same time she learned to draw my blood.I think if you separate the two it's too hard to put them back together later.

[applejuice]

I think if you separate the two it's too hard to put them back together later.

Yeah, you always miss your first one...even if it was a machine...

[MammaB21]

Originally Posted by prothyraia

And the robot is bad why?

I don't like the fact that this robot is programed to have multiple complications, many that are probably not going to show up in a typical, non medicated, non interviened with birth. And then the docs are taught to act fast, with fear, and suspense, and urgency. The baby robot comes out blue, and they probably freek out and cut the cord, and rush the baby to nicu....when in a normal birth it is common for a baby to look blueish at first until it takes its first breaths (wich can safetly take a little while, since the baby is still getting oxygen from the cord). Many of these similar "emergencies" the robot is pre-programed with, can be handled without the drama. There was a paragraph that stated, "Several more medical personal burst into the room where she gave regular birth to twins after a frenzied 20 min operation." Unfortunately, this is probably one reason so many births in hospital settings end in unnecessary c-section. JMO

[mntnmom]

She can be programmed for complications. But what about the fact that every healthy labor and delivery is different? I have rarely heard of one "by the book". Is this just going to emphasize the idea that every deviation is a complication?
In theory I think it's a great idea though.

[cottonwood]

Bah. I can guarantee that whatever this robot looks like giving birth it's not what I look like giving birth. Is it kneeling or squatting? Refusing vaginal exams? Refusing to push as told? Adversely affected by light, sounds, touch, and inhibition? Yeah, I thought not. Pretty limited as a tool for learning about normal childbirth, then.

[applejuice]

I wonder if there is a zipper on her abdomen for repeat c-sections.

i am sure that doctors would love to put those on most of their female patients.

[Spark]

Do you think this means that CNMs and OBs won't have to perform a required X amount of episiotomies on laboring women during their training to get certified? If so... then I'm all for the robot!

[prothyraia]

Training for complications (particularly rare ones) are exactly what this thing should be used for. For normal birth, yeah, it's a little silly. But the closer a med student can get to practicing for, say, a severe PPH, without actually having someone's life hanging in the balance, the better : It's NOT the same as working with a living breathing human being. That's the point. It doesn't really matter if someone screws up and Noelle stops living and breathing.

Obviously it's only going to be as useful as it's programmed to be, and will be affected by how the people running the scenarios view birth. It's just a tool. Put it in the hands of traditional OB-white-knight, and yeah it'll be used to reinforce the existing medical paradigm. Just like every other bit of training they do. That doesn't mean there's anything objectional about Noelle herself, or that she couldn't be used in a good way. And maybe it will at least help reduce medical errors.

[Turquesa]

This idea is nothing new. They didn't have the technology for robots in 1904, but there's a picture in Tina Cassidy's book of an all-male med class surrounding a female dummy in labor. Back then, male doctors were just beginning to supplant midwives. The dummies came into play largely because these modest men were embarrassed to see a real vagina. Most of them went from med school to practice without ever actually delivering a baby.

[applejuice]

Most of them went from med school to practice without ever actually delivering a baby.

...or washing their hands.