Where do boundaries end?

[DevaMajka]

I'm having a hard time knowing when to step in and when to butt out when it comes to my 3.5yo ds and his 4.5yo friend K (and occasionally K's 2.5yo sister A). Sometimes I babysit both of them, other times it's just K here on a playdate without his mom. Sometimes they all play together, while their mom and I talk.

So, I know that I will step in if anyone if being physically touched and another says "no."

But what about these other cases?
K (and sometimes A) will be very very close to ds (think inches from his face) making "roar" type sounds. Ds says he's scared, which I believe. He's sensitive to scary stuff, especially sounds. I tell ds he can move away, he moves an inch and they move along with him. Ds refuses to come to the other room with me.

DS sings a song or is making some other noise (this one happens both ways equally often), and K says he doesn't like it and it's bothering him. Ds keeps singing anyways, from the original spot he was sitting in. (meaning, he's a good few feet away from K).
Now, I try really hard not to be biased, but when its my ds, it's usually a song he felt like singing, and he keeps singing the song. When it's K doing it, it sometimes turns into making a sound over and over after he learns that it bothers ds. I'm sure this has to do with age difference- K is a year older than ds, and I'm sure he is in a different stage of interacting with people and experimenting with relationships.

K and A were in a room, and making noises that were bothering ds. He left the room (he was happy to play with something else in another room), and K and A said they were done so ds would come back. Ds came back, and the instant he came in the room, they made the noise again. Ds leaves. They say they'll stop, he comes back, they start again. Etc etc a few times.

So...what do I do? In each situation, one of the boys has asked me to make the other one stop. I don't want to be unfair about it. Oh, and "making them stop" is just saying "stop." Nothing further than that would be needed.

I've had irl people tell me that if the sound annoys me anyways then have the noisy child stop. But why does MY opinion of the sound matter more than the kids' opinion of it?

Dp was telling me that it didn't really matter if I stepped in or not (but I should if I feel like it), because they'll have to deal with these situations without us there at some point. But my thought was that the difference is that when we're not there, he's not wondering why we're just sitting there and not helping (I'm thinking of the first situation here).

So, wwyd?

[One_Girl]

In the examples you listed I think it would be helpful to teach both children how to communicate their annoyance by giving them some words they can say to their friend about the situation like "please stop you are annoying/scaring me." And then helping them find some alternate options by telling them that it looks like their friend doesn't want to stop their game and asking them what else they want to do. This builds their communication skills that are also necessary for play. If one child is invading the other child's space by getting up close to them I would explain that he is invading his friends space and he needs to stop and I would give him the choice to stay out of his friends space or to bring his toys to a different room and play there.

[grantskismom+1]

This is just my opinion so it means nothing but I'm a big believer in letting kids work things out themselves as long as no physical contact. That said, I tend to take that approach in everything with my kids. They need to learn on their own without me telling them how to respond so my opinion is biased towards this.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

In the examples you listed I think it would be helpful to teach both children how to communicate their annoyance by giving them some words they can say to their friend about the situation like "please stop you are annoying/scaring me."

They do that. The one will ask the other to stop and say they don't like it. The other acknowledges it, but decides to continue.
I haven't offered other activities though.

It's not an issue of it being hard to get them to stop. All I have to do is tell them to stop, and they move on to playing something else together. But I suppose if I did offer other activities it might make it easier for them to decide to stop...hmmm...good idea

And it's a matter of deciding whether to let it go and let them deal with it on their own, like the pp said. But I feel VERY uncomfortable just allowing another child to be in my ds's space when ds is obviously unhappy with it. I don't like people in my space, and I don't want to send ds the message that it's ok for K to do that against ds's will. If I sit by and do nothing, that's basically the message I feel I'm sending- I don't care if your personal boundaries are being invaded, if you can't fix it yourself, then deal with it.
Alright, so I guess I've figured out where I stand on THAT issue. lol

But still, with the singing and making noises from a few feet away, what do I do there? If it's annoying to *me* I'd ask them to stop. Why would I take their opinions less seriously? Even though it's an interaction between the two of them, they don't have the skills yet to express themselves firmly enough to make the other stop. I know they need to learn, but I don't think they need to learn by just being thrown into situations and having to fend for themselves!
On the other hand...it's just sound, it's not really hurting anyone, and is it right to stifle one child just because the other *says* they are bothered by a song? (Sometimes the child who is not singing says they are bothered just to make the singing child stop, not because they really are bothered).

With toy disagreements and similar situations, I do tell them that they have to figure out a solution themselves, and they do a good job of that. Usually, it goes K's way, but he presents it in a way that ds is agreeable to, so it's all good.

[Fuamami]

With my kids, who are all siblings, so of course it's a lot different, and with other kids they are playing with, I help them enforce their boundaries. So in your situation, when your ds told K to stop, and he didn't, I would say to K, "Please stop doing that, it's scaring K and you're in his air space." And then I would try to figure out another activity to get them distracted, or maybe one where you integrate the roaring into the fun.

As far as letting them work it out on their own, I feel that's more appropriate with siblings. I do let them work out a lot of their issues on their own, or just offer suggestions. But with other people's kids, I think it helps them enjoy each other a lot more if you facilitate their interaction. That's the advantage of having an adult/parent there, right?

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by natensarah

With my kids, who are all siblings, so of course it's a lot different, and with other kids they are playing with, I help them enforce their boundaries. So in your situation, when your ds told K to stop, and he didn't, I would say to K, "Please stop doing that, it's scaring K and you're in his air space."

Thank you! That's perfect, and I think it sums up how I feel (which I couldn't figure out until I read that). Ds stated his boundary, and I was there to help enforce it.

So, would you do the same thing for singing across the room? Or just let it be?

The times that I let them work it out, would be...say...they want to watch a video, and they aren't agreeing on which to watch. I say they have to agree on one to put in. Stuff like that. Or "I want to build the track on the rug, and he wants to build the track in the kitchen." lol They work it out with some negotiation, and no fighting, and everyone ends up happy and feeling like they "won" (or at least so it seems). (I do give them ideas if they are having a hard time)
It seems that if I enforced on decision or the other, the one who "lost" would be unhappy with me, if only for a minute.

[Magella]

For singing across the room....

This may not be at all applicable to your situation, because it's a sibling thing rather than a friends thing, but here goes: our oldest is very sensitive to noise, and often really complains about other people (read: her siblings) singing or making noises at reasonable volumes. She can certainly ask them to stop, respectfully, and we encourage her to do so. At the same time, however, the other kids do live here and I think they ought to be able to sing or make reasonable noises without having to always stop because dd1 doesn't like it. Particularly if they were in the room singing/talking/making noise before she came in. So we do emphasize to dd1 that while she can ask them to stop or move to another room, they may not always stop or be willing to leave the room when she asks and she does have other options available to her: she can go to another room, she can put on her headphones, (I'm sure we've come up with other solutions but I can't think of them at the moment). In other words, she can find a way to cope.

It's tricky, finding that balance between one child's right to sing and another child's discomfort with or dislike of the singing. So if they're having trouble working it out and I do need to intervene, I often err on the side of encouraging the child who is bothered by the noise to focus on ways of coping that do not involve making the other person do what she wants them to do.

Certainly, one can ask another person to do something, but we can't control other people and other people are not always going to be willing to do what we want them to do. So we do have to learn to cope when, for example, someone wants to sing and we don't like it. We often have conversations like "can you control him?" 'no' "who can you control?" 'me' "If you can't make him do what you want, what can you do?" 'go somewhere else/do something else/[insert alternative here].' Sometimes we've had to do a lot of brainstorming to figure out what alternative might work for dd1. Learning to brainstorm alternatives is a good thing.

eta When one child does seem to be making a loud or annoying, repetitive noise in order to annoy/get a reaction from a sibling, and does not stop when asked by their sibling to stop (and things are escalating, people are getting very frustrated-working it out on their own isn't going well at all), I will step in and say "that noise is annoying/loud, dc, please either stop or go outside/downstairs/other to be noisy." Or "that really is getting pretty loud, dc, please either quiet down or do that outside/downstairs/other."