Grr... your punishment just crushed MY kid! - Page 6

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by dubfam

Someone punishing or imposing consequences on their child does not automatically equate to "not getting to the root of the problem". I would imagine that one can do both, yes?

Yes and no. You can punish your child, and still have conversations and get to the root of things. And that can feel really great for your family.

But IME if I truly get to the root of it - both the child's behavior and their feelings, as well as my feelings and behavior - the punishment becomes completely moot. And other solutions are come to. Making the child suffer for his behavior is no longer an issue, because I'm actually dealing with the underlying situation in a proactive way. I've been on all sides.. goodness, I started out parenting thinking the Pearls might be on to something! Then GD, and now non-coercive parenting and I've just found that this way not only feels better, it works just as well in the short run, and even better over time.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by Collinsky

Yes and no. You can punish your child, and still have conversations and get to the root of things. And that can feel really great for your family.

But IME if I truly get to the root of it - both the child's behavior and their feelings, as well as my feelings and behavior - the punishment becomes completely moot. And other solutions are come to. Making the child suffer for his behavior is no longer an issue, because I'm actually dealing with the underlying situation in a proactive way. I've been on all sides.. goodness, I started out parenting thinking the Pearls might be on to something! Then GD, and now non-coercive parenting and I've just found that this way not only feels better, it works just as well in the short run, and even better over time.

But there are times where getting to the root of the problem can take a couple weeks. In a serious safety matter like this, where there is a really good chance he will do it again, I can understand why the Mom would feel a need to impose a consequence. I don't see how this consequence was just about making the child suffer. It really seems pretty logical to me....I doubt that they were able to get to the root of the problem by the next day, bc I am guessing it is a big problem that would trigger his actions.

I don;t think this was the perfect way to handle this, but it is a heck of a lot more GD than what would have happened in most households.

And we now have 6 pages of unsolicited parenting advice for this poor woman

[chfriend]

The OP has stated clearly that the mother was not concerned about safety at the party. She states:

"Sometimes punishment has consequences beyond what you intend for your child. In this particular instance, my son (an introvert who has a hard time making friends) was much more hurt by the punishment than his friend (an extrovert who lets things roll off his back a bit more). (And yes it was punishment. The parents were not afraid he was going to run off at the party. He was still going to school. The punishment was not being able to go to the party.)"

As far as I can tell, the folks who think this was a great punishment or at least just not that big a deal (life is full of disappointments and it's not like it was this kid's wedding) honestly don't care about the effect this decision had on other people.

I can accept that. I don't share values with the whole world and in my house behaving with kindness toward others is valued. It would matter to me the affect my decision had on my dds' friends, and if unavoidable, I'd seek to mitigate it as best I could.

What to do about the running? I honestly can't imagine chasing my kids when they are 6. 3, sure. 6...I'd stand and wait. Unless this happened as we were loading into the car, I can't see how it would affect attending an important birthday party.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by chfriend

As far as I can tell, the folks who think this was a great punishment or at least just not that big a deal (life is full of disappointments and it's not like it was this kid's wedding) honestly don't care about the effect this decision had on other people.

I can accept that. I don't share values with the whole world and in my house behaving with kindness toward others is valued. It would matter to me the affect my decision had on my dds' friends, and if unavoidable, I'd seek to mitigate it as best I could.

I really don't see how you would come to that conclusion.

Life is full of disappointments. It sound like the OP's child had a VERY nice party (rec center w/ a pool) and other friends came to celebrate. I really can't imagine him being traumatized by this. Upset, bummed out, let down-sure.

I do think that they should have let the OP know ahead of time...but geez, the mom even came to the party early to help set up. I would be so grateful if someone did that for me! She had the right to decide to not bring her child, even at the last minute, without consulting the OP.

I am wondering if she was worried that the OP might try and talk her out of it if she called and told her first. By just showing up she avoided that. Not saying it's right, but maybe that is why.

Seriously, I think this whole thing is getting blown way out of proportion.

I guess this mom is just completely inconsiderate of other people, and quite possibly a child abuser?



I DO understand the OP's frustration, but I think this is just life. Not worth getting upset with the other Mama about...ESPECIALLY since she still honored her commitment to help with the party.

[dubfam]

And I am wondering how the OP knows safety at the party wasn't a concern...Is she assuming that or did the other mom say that point blank?

[Magella]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

Obviously one part of the solution is to work on the parent-child connection. But that's a "slow" solution. How do you get it through a 6 yo's thick skull that this is REALLY dangerous? Kids DO this sort of thing. Even kids with good connections.

What about a kid, even a kid with good connections, who isn't a rule follower?

Originally Posted by dubfam

But there are times where getting to the root of the problem can take a couple weeks. In a serious safety matter like this, where there is a really good chance he will do it again, I can understand why the Mom would feel a need to impose a consequence.

It has been my experience, as the mom of a kid who did engage in serious and unsafe behavior, that the approaches typically perceived as "slower" are vital. IME, addressing the reasons behind the behavior (the root of the problem, the child's concerns and/or skills) results in the most durable solutions and the most durable change. (And here I don't mean just nurturing connection, but helping kids learn skills (if needed) and working together with the child to find a solution to the problem, with the child's input.) And when the issue is very serious, I want a durable solution. IME, punishments and rewards don't solve problems. Temporarily, it might help but it doesn't actually solve anything durably. It certainly doesn't address the root of the problem, and it doesn't teach any skills. I won't rely on punishments or rewards (or the threat/promise of punishments/rewards) to keep my kid safe. Kids may not be thinking, in that moment when they experience an impulse, of the consequence they got last time. They may not care, at that moment, about the consequence they might experience or the punishment they might get. They can have trouble with decision making and thinking things through, regardless of consequences. And so on. It has also been my experience that using punishments and rewards can result in more frustration and conflict, interfering with our getting to a solution for the initial unsafe behavior. And again, I want to get to that solution.

IME, if I really want to keep my kid safe I have to do a couple of things. I have to work with my kid to solve the problem. Together. And that can take time. So I also have to provide a level of supervision that keeps my kids safe. Yes, I know, sometimes a mom has to pee or help another kid. But having had a 7 year old who engaged in unsafe, serious behavior I can say that it was worth the time and effort to provide very close supervision ("never farther away than the next room, always able to clearly hear and preferably see what was going on, so I can intervene swiftly to keep everyone safe" kind of supervision) until the problem was solved to the degree that I felt safe backing off on that very close supervision (which actually happened little by little).

So I imagine if my 6 year old were to do something like this, we'd have that very serious discussion where I talked about how serious and potentially dangerous it is to leave without telling me. I'd make it very clear that I need him to ask me if it's okay to go somewhere/that he tell me where he's going, that it's important I know where he is. If it happened a second time, we'd problem-solve together. I'd listen to my kid's concern, present my concerns, and collaborate with my child on a solution that works for both of us. Not one that works just for him, but one that satisfactorily and realistically addresses both my concerns and his. We'd make a plan for safety. And I'd supervise closely until I felt confident that it was safe to back off a bit on that supervision.

And I really can't imagine chasing my 6 year old (like chfriend, I'd just wait), unless his running away were likely to put him in danger. And whether or not it presented immediate danger, his running away from me would be a whole other issue to address-together, proactively.

YMMV.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by dubfam

I really can't imagine him being traumatized by this. Upset, bummed out, let down-sure.

ISeriously, I think this whole thing is getting blown way out of proportion.

I guess this mom is just completely inconsiderate of other people, and quite possibly a child abuser?

I must have missed where someone called this person a child abuser or said that she was completely inconsiderate of other people. Could you please point out where that happened?

Respectfully, when your 6/7 year old has a best friend and they are an introvert, it honestly doesn't matter to them that they had "a nice party at a rec center." Or even that they got a large material haul. It matters to them that their *best friend* was there. It matters.

It doesn't matter to them that their best friend isn't there when they are littler but it does when they are 6/7.

I don't understand why people aren't taking the OP's word for it that it is a big deal. Traumatized: no she didn't say that. Hurt and a big deal, yes.

[mrsfatty]

Is there any legitimate reason a parent is "allowed" to refuse a party (even if previously committed to the said party)?

Does gentle discipline equal no punishment?

What are abstract punishments (I don't get it)?

Are imposed consequences considered punishments?

Is honoring commitments more important than disciplining a child? Is there a way to do both?

Does gentle discipline only affect the child it's directed toward? (Does gd affect other people?)

[kungfu_barbi]

Originally Posted by mamazee

The thing to do, IMO, is to reconnect with the child and have a better relationship.

mamazee, i appreciate what you have brought to this thread. your insights are both proactive and practical. thank you.

peace

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by kungfu_barbi

mamazee, i appreciate what you have brought to this thread. your insights are both proactive and practical. thank you.

peace

:

[savithny]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Respectfully, when your 6/7 year old has a best friend and they are an introvert, it honestly doesn't matter to them that they had "a nice party at a rec center." Or even that they got a large material haul. It matters to them that their *best friend* was there. It matters.

It doesn't matter to them that their best friend isn't there when they are littler but it does when they are 6/7.

I don't understand why people aren't taking the OP's word for it that it is a big deal. Traumatized: no she didn't say that. Hurt and a big deal, yes.

I've been wondering now about something.

Lets imagine a different scenario.

The best friend's mother is a hard-core gentle disciplinarian. The best friend has a little brother who is 3. And just before the party starts, the mother calls to say that Little Brother doesn't want to get in his carseat, so she'll be unable to drive Best Friend to the party.

(for the sake of argument, lets add that mother cannot find anyone on short notice to either watch little brother while she delivers best friend, or give best friend a ride in time to make it to the party)

Does that change anyone's answers about how you shouldn't let your discipline affect the enjoyment of others or prevent you from honoring social committments? Because it is her choice to not force little brother into the carseat that is causing best friend to miss this party.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I must have missed where someone called this person a child abuser or said that she was completely inconsiderate of other people. Could you please point out where that happened?

Respectfully, when your 6/7 year old has a best friend and they are an introvert, it honestly doesn't matter to them that they had "a nice party at a rec center." Or even that they got a large material haul. It matters to them that their *best friend* was there. It matters.

It doesn't matter to them that their best friend isn't there when they are littler but it does when they are 6/7.

I don't understand why people aren't taking the OP's word for it that it is a big deal. Traumatized: no she didn't say that. Hurt and a big deal, yes.

Oh Come ON that is the gist of this thread...an exaggerated version, yes., but still...
I can't imagine one kid not being there ruining such a nice party. And if it did I really don;t fault the family that didn't bring their child. My Goddess, did this woman RSVP in blood or something??!!

The op's son had other friends there at the party...it's not like this was the only kid invited.

The world isn't going to revolve around my child, introvert or not. I am not implying that the op thinks that, more like some of the responses to this thread are implying that.

I never had any idea that someone might place that much importance on my son's presence at a celebration.

[allgirls]

Is there any legitimate reason a parent is "allowed" to refuse a party (even if previously committed to the said party)?

I'm sure there are reasons. I have never refused a party to my children unless it was a potentially dangerous situation(I have teens) and then I set them up with something to replace what they were missing out on. A movie, a sleepover etc. I haven't ever taken away a party as punishment but if a parent is punitive then I am sure they feel their reasons are valid and legitimate and it's not my job to judge that.

Does gentle discipline equal no punishment?

For me yes. For me a large part of gd was deciding on the paradigm shift of non punitive teaching and leading and relationship building as opposed to the you do bad things you get punished paradigm.

What are abstract punishments (I don't get it)? Abstract punishments?not a term I am familiar with

Are imposed consequences considered punishments?

I think so however sometimes there is a fine line between imposed and logical/natural punishments. My older kids would fight in the car so I imposed a consequence that I would turn around and go home at the first "bickering" because it was really distracting and dangerous. Some would consider it punishment but I consider it logical consequences. I just wouldn't endanger my family that way. Of course later on I discovered a technique that effectively ended their general bickering but until I discovered that I imposed that consequence for our safety and my sanity.

Is honoring commitments more important than disciplining a child? Is there a way to do both?

I think often there is. The above example for instance was imposed upon my older girls in a very gentle way. Before a drive to a very important event for them I sat them down and explained my position on their aguing in the car and how it affected our safety etc. and that I would not be driving them there if it continued and would immediately turn back if it started. I also set them up for success by giving them stuff to do in the car and seating them away from each other whenever possible. My girls were about 8 and 11 when I did this so older and able to understand. I think if you are imposing consequences that do no relate to the behaviour though, then it will go to resentment in the child and not really address the issue at hand.

Does gentle discipline only affect the child it's directed toward? (Does gd affect other people

Of course. Everything one human being does affects another, sometimes very directly and sometimes not so much. So does non-gd discipline. My children have been affected by seeing a spanking for example.

and for the record, I am not even remotely a permissive parent. I am all over things. I just make a concerted effort to keep our relationship strong and to explain over and over and to make serious allowances for tired, age, hunger, and emotions and to allow them to express emotion in a healthy way that is age appropriate.

[dubfam]

What a GREAT post allgirls




I always love hearing (reading!) what you have to say.

[rabbitmum]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

In the situation he was in it sounded like his parents had allowed him the freedom to leave the house and he was already out of it therefore locks on the doors would not have anything to do with what happened and would only keep him from running away if his parents don't actually allow him out of the house in the first place.

Ok, I didn't understand that. I assumed that he was inside and had actually gone out without telling or asking his mother.

[mrsfatty]

Originally Posted by allgirls

Is there any legitimate reason a parent is "allowed" to refuse a party (even if previously committed to the said party)?

I'm sure there are reasons. I have never refused a party to my children unless it was a potentially dangerous situation(I have teens) and then I set them up with something to replace what they were missing out on. A movie, a sleepover etc. I haven't ever taken away a party as punishment but if a parent is punitive then I am sure they feel their reasons are valid and legitimate and it's not my job to judge that.

Does gentle discipline equal no punishment?

For me yes. For me a large part of gd was deciding on the paradigm shift of non punitive teaching and leading and relationship building as opposed to the you do bad things you get punished paradigm.

What are abstract punishments (I don't get it)? Abstract punishments?not a term I am familiar with

Are imposed consequences considered punishments?

I think so however sometimes there is a fine line between imposed and logical/natural punishments. My older kids would fight in the car so I imposed a consequence that I would turn around and go home at the first "bickering" because it was really distracting and dangerous. Some would consider it punishment but I consider it logical consequences. I just wouldn't endanger my family that way. Of course later on I discovered a technique that effectively ended their general bickering but until I discovered that I imposed that consequence for our safety and my sanity.

Is honoring commitments more important than disciplining a child? Is there a way to do both?

I think often there is. The above example for instance was imposed upon my older girls in a very gentle way. Before a drive to a very important event for them I sat them down and explained my position on their aguing in the car and how it affected our safety etc. and that I would not be driving them there if it continued and would immediately turn back if it started. I also set them up for success by giving them stuff to do in the car and seating them away from each other whenever possible. My girls were about 8 and 11 when I did this so older and able to understand. I think if you are imposing consequences that do no relate to the behaviour though, then it will go to resentment in the child and not really address the issue at hand.

Does gentle discipline only affect the child it's directed toward? (Does gd affect other people

Of course. Everything one human being does affects another, sometimes very directly and sometimes not so much. So does non-gd discipline. My children have been affected by seeing a spanking for example.

and for the record, I am not even remotely a permissive parent. I am all over things. I just make a concerted effort to keep our relationship strong and to explain over and over and to make serious allowances for tired, age, hunger, and emotions and to allow them to express emotion in a healthy way that is age appropriate.

Thank you SO much for answering that for me! I'm new to all this (I don't know if you've seen my October 14th post--but I'm new to gd)--your explanations are very helpful! I appreciate it...it's helping me understand a bit better!

Follow-up...I feel dumb, but, what's punitive?

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by dubfam

I can't imagine one kid not being there ruining such a nice party. And if it did I really don;t fault the family that didn't bring their child. My Goddess, did this woman RSVP in blood or something??!!

No, she didn't RSVP in blood , and if you read my update, I've calmed down a bit. The BIG mistake was in not letting us know ahead of time. That was inconsiderate and would have given me time to prepare ds.

There's a larger debate about the value of grounding a child, but maybe that deserves it's own thread. I'm actually one of the less "consentual" parents around here. I do time outs. I remove toys that are causing bickering/that are being misused. I've pulled over to the side of the road and refused to drive because my kids are making too much noise. But somehow I don't "get" grounding a child.

Originally Posted by dubfam

I never had any idea that someone might place that much importance on my son's presence at a celebration.

That was part of my point. In THIS particular situation, my son placed a lot of value on his bf being there. More value than I think his parents realized. That combined with the questionable value of keeping him home from the party as a punishment, would lead me say that the parents should have considered the full impact of what they were doing. Not only on their son, but mine too. Unless you've got a true introvert who makes friends slowly because he's a bit delayed in his social skills (which bf's parents KNOW), you might not really "get it".

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by rabbitmum

Ok, I didn't understand that. I assumed that he was inside and had actually gone out without telling or asking his mother.

Well, he did both. I think I was the one who first mentioned locks (maybe a door alarm would have been a better suggestion -- something that tells them if he's slipped out) and my only intention there was: if he can't be trusted to be safe on his own, his parents have got to have a way to make sure he's safe. And that might include restricting his ability to go places on his own until he's more mature. That to me is a NATURAL consequence.

I wasn't suggesting locking him in as a punishment, but rather as a way for his parents to be able to keep him safe until he's able to make safer choices with their help.

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by mrsfatty

Thank you SO much for answering that for me! I'm new to all this (I don't know if you've seen my October 14th post--but I'm new to gd)--your explanations are very helpful! I appreciate it...it's helping me understand a bit better!

Follow-up...I feel dumb, but, what's punitive?

punitive means simply using punishment.

[allgirls]

LynnS6..I am going to just share something with you that happened to my daughter at her 5th birthday party.

It was a beautiful June day. I had invited a bunch of her friends to her party. Most of them had said yes to the invite. But it was a sunny weekend in spring and it had rained most of the previous 2 weeks. The day of the party was gorgous. One by one the parents called and couldn't make it.

One child showed up at her party. I was so and upset for her. And I was so mad at the parents.

BUT she had a great time. She partied and had fun and played with us. We went out of our way to make sure she had as much fun as she could have with only one other child at the party.

I held that resentment for a long time and still am somewhat ticked at those parents. But my daughter is now nearly 14 and she doesn't even remember it. Kids are so resilient.

I think you are disappointed at what your friend did and for the reasons she provided as well. And I think not letting you know in advance was her biggest mistake with regard to your son. She could have at least given him time to get his disappointment out of the way before the actual party.

While I don't agree with her methods and they certainly are not methods I would use I do understand her frustration and desperation...I think this was a desperate attempt to curb behaviour that is frankly very frightening and frustrating for her as a mom. I could tell you another story about the same daughter above but I won't bore you. Let's just say I get why she did it. Disappearing kids and kids running into danger is heart-stopping for a mom.

I think the best you can do at this point is validate your sons disappointed feelings, validate your own disappointment for your son, highlight the good things about the party and move along.

In time this party will blend into a never ending memory of fantastic moments in his childhood that you provided for him by having parties that celebrate the moment he became your son.