or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › Grr... your punishment just crushed MY kid!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Grr... your punishment just crushed MY kid! - Page 9

post #161 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen View Post
Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?
can you explain what you mean, your point of view?

maybe it's semantics - i don't see an outside world full of punishment.

peace
post #162 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post
If your biggest concern is that your son's friend isn't there that's the same whether the friend is sick or being punished.
It wouldn't be to me. They used the birthday party as a tool to punish their son.

It happened to me once that I arranged something nice for the kids and invited another child, but then that child's mother called me just before the event to say that her child had been so difficult all day that she had decided to punish him, a four-year-old, by not letting him join us for our planned event.

I felt very bad about it because something special I had planned for the kids was being used as a punishment. I felt like my efforts to give them a nice experience had been turned into a tool to hurt and humiliate this child, in a way I would never have done. I don't do punishments so I don't want to be used like that.

Even if it wasn't my wish that the "misbehaving" child should stay at home, it is very possible that he would feel shame the next time he saw me, and think about the time he wasn't allowed to join our event because he had been "bad". And maybe wonder if I didn't want him there.

There is no logic and no predictability in that sort of treatment of children. The child in this position has to make sure he doesn't disobey, or else whatever the parents know that he loves or looks forward to, can be taken from him as revenge. His possessions aren't his to keep, things he has been promised can be snatched away at any time. It is a completely unpredictable situation for a child.
post #163 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen View Post
Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?
For my children I hope to instill in them a sense of right and wrong. That they will do the right thing because it is the right thing not because they fear the "punishment" because that doesn't prevent them from doing the wrong thing when there is no one watching or when they don't get caught.

I look to the future and how I want them to be as adults and let's face it..adults don't get sent to arbitrary corners to "think about what they did" for all sorts of little infractions and adults don't get smacked for "misbehavior".

Also, when using a tool of discipline I like it to be something that is far-reaching and will be effective in the future. I may be able to send a 3 year old into time out for doing something but at 13 she's not going if she chooses not to and it's setting myself up for failure to think I can make her do something at that age or older without a lot of noise.

The most frustrating thing for me is watching children being held to standards of perfection that adults aren't held to. If you speak out against something you don't get sent to your room. If you voice your opinion, you don't get spanked. If you make a mistake you don't get shamed and embarrassed by anyone...or if you do you will get a lot of support on how wrong it was to have been treated that way.

To answer your question directly I think children who are raised without punishment but with gentle guidance, teaching and respect actually function better in the world because they don't have to look to anyone else for their compass..it will come naturally from within because they have been trusted and respected and thus have trust and respect for their own judgement.

That's what I'm seeing anyway.
post #164 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbitmum View Post
There is no logic and no predictability in that sort of treatment of children. The child in this position has to make sure he doesn't disobey, or else whatever the parents know that he loves or looks forward to, can be taken from him as revenge. His possessions aren't his to keep, things he has been promised can be snatched away at any time. It is a completely unpredictable situation for a child.

I understand that this is the prevailing pov on punishment here on the GD board. And I've read many, many books, and I understand that Kohn and others share this pov.

I don't believe, however, that a child raised in a GD home that incorporates punishment some of the time necessarily shares this pov.

We've used punishment (time out, and, yes, sometimes cancelling something fun) at times. Those punishments are reserved for when things are really breaking down and a specific behavior needs to stop, immediately, to keep everyone safe, and, for whatever reason, more relationship-style parenting is failing us at the moment. And ime it can work very well.

I would be concerned if this were the backbone of our parenting and our relationship with our dc. But it isn't. Our relationship is based on love and trust and simply enjoying each other . I find that we enjoy each other best when neither of us is raging violently, however, and punishment helped us teach dd to stop raging (by requiring her to find other ways to express her feelings--ways that don't feel as immediately rewarding, but are far more rewarding in the long run).

I'd cut the parent in question here a lot of slack. It sounds like they had a very intense experience (not being about to find the child), and they were scared. They probably felt like they needed to do something to make sure that it never happened again--to make sure that their child stayed safe--and they probably didn't know what to do. Kids don't come with instruction manuals, after all. It sounds like they did the best thing they knew to do, and I'm sure they weren't happy about it.

To the op--yeah, it bites that the boy's punishment had a negative impact on your ds's party. And she definitely should have given you some notice. Maybe she didn't call because she was conflicted about her decision?
post #165 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by allgirls
For my children I hope to instill in them a sense of right and wrong. That they will do the right thing because it is the right thing not because they fear the "punishment" because that doesn't prevent them from doing the wrong thing when there is no one watching or when they don't get caught.

I look to the future and how I want them to be as adults and let's face it..adults don't get sent to arbitrary corners to "think about what they did" for all sorts of little infractions and adults don't get smacked for "misbehavior".

Also, when using a tool of discipline I like it to be something that is far-reaching and will be effective in the future. I may be able to send a 3 year old into time out for doing something but at 13 she's not going if she chooses not to and it's setting myself up for failure to think I can make her do something at that age or older without a lot of noise.

The most frustrating thing for me is watching children being held to standards of perfection that adults aren't held to. If you speak out against something you don't get sent to your room. If you voice your opinion, you don't get spanked. If you make a mistake you don't get shamed and embarrassed by anyone...or if you do you will get a lot of support on how wrong it was to have been treated that way.

To answer your question directly I think children who are raised without punishment but with gentle guidance, teaching and respect actually function better in the world because they don't have to look to anyone else for their compass..it will come naturally from within because they have been trusted and respected and thus have trust and respect for their own judgement.
:

I am also someone who does not experience or perceive the world as being full of punishments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen
Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?
If what you mean is that all of our actions have consequences, and that by the time one reaches adulthood one needs to be able to accept responsibility for one's own actions (and the consequences thereof) and to be able and willing to make amends when having (purposefully or not) caused harm/suffering/damage: I think punishment simply isn't necessary to teach this. Further, I don't think punishments do a good job of teaching kids to take responsibility for their actions, or to make amends, or to recognize the significance of human suffering, or to empathize or take the perspective of another person. I think punishment often results in the opposite effect: a child learning not to get caught, learning that sometimes it's worth the punishment to engage in a behavior, that punishment wipes the slate clean even without making amends to those we've hurt. And I think punishment emphasizes focusing on the self, focusing primarily on what will happen to me if I act in this way, rather than promoting thinking carefully about how my actions will affect those around me.

I like and agree with the following:
Quote:
"And, very important, punishment-any punishment-devalues human suffering, simply because it is the intentional infliction of suffering. Parents are those individuals in a child's world who are supposed to represent the side of good. When they intentionally inflict suffering, the implicit message to the child is that suffering must be a legitimate means to an end. Punishment as a part of child-rearing practice teaches the child that human suffering is not an absolute harm." (Anthony Wolf, The Secret of Parenting)
post #166 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
omg seriously? Yes there are a zillion ways to deal with anything. Denying a birthday party for leaving home and refusing to come back, twice, is not the end of the world, and it is not necessarily un-GD. Let's not do the 'omgz is this babycentre????' coz really.

GD is not CL. GD can include parent imposed consequences.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with parent-imposed consequences, but to me, missing a birthday party is an extreme consequence. As a child, I think I'd have preferred a spanking
post #167 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by sledg View Post
:

I am also someone who does not experience or perceive the world as being full of punishments.

If what you mean is that all of our actions have consequences, and that by the time one reaches adulthood one needs to be able to accept responsibility for one's own actions (and the consequences thereof) and to be able and willing to make amends when having (purposefully or not) caused harm/suffering/damage: I think punishment simply isn't necessary to teach this. Further, I don't think punishments do a good job of teaching kids to take responsibility for their actions, or to make amends, or to recognize the significance of human suffering, or to empathize or take the perspective of another person. I think punishment often results in the opposite effect: a child learning not to get caught, learning that sometimes it's worth the punishment to engage in a behavior, that punishment wipes the slate clean even without making amends to those we've hurt. And I think punishment emphasizes focusing on the self, focusing primarily on what will happen to me if I act in this way, rather than promoting thinking carefully about how my actions will affect those around me.

ITA with this.
It is what makes me KNOW that this will work. We have done a pretty good job of practicing GD, and I think a lot of what we do is CL. I have seen my son learn through this type of parenting. I have seen that I don't have to punish in order to get a point across to him.

But above all else, he has EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE, which is so important. many children, boys esp, never learn how to identify their emotions or express themselves in an effective way.
We very occasionally will do a parent imposed consequence, but avoid it like the plague. The consequences don't get to the root of the problem.
post #168 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
...and I think a lot of what we do is CL. .
at the risk of sounding ignorant, what is CL? could someone please enlighten me? tia


peace
post #169 of 195
Consensual Living...I don;t have time to link...but there are lots of great web sites that explain it

I am sure someone will post some links
post #170 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbitmum View Post

I felt very bad about it because something special I had planned for the kids was being used as a punishment. I felt like my efforts to give them a nice experience had been turned into a tool to hurt and humiliate this child, in a way I would never have done. I don't do punishments so I don't want to be used like that.
That strikes me as a very narcissistic way to view the situation. It isn't really about you. The original poster's feeling was that it "crushed her kid". My point was that unless the parent chooses to make it a big deal, the objective reality for a young child is that their friend isn't there. Whether the kid is sick or punished really makes no difference unless parents choose to layer on another level of meaning. I can't imagine anyone here would be holding a grudge if the friend's kid got sick and I see no reason to treat this any differently. As I the poster acknowledged her son handled it maturely and bounced back and she was the one who struggled more. I'd see this as a good example of how we maybe should a hint from our kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbitmum View Post
Even if it wasn't my wish that the "misbehaving" child should stay at home, it is very possible that he would feel shame the next time he saw me, and think about the time he wasn't allowed to join our event because he had been "bad". And maybe wonder if I didn't want him there.
I think this is really far fetched. It sounds like you are looking for a reason to make it about you and to be upset. And, I post this as a parent who doesn't believe in punishment and doesn't use it.
post #171 of 195
My two cents on the issue because we just dealt with ds (almost 4) running away from me at the park, TOWARD the very busy street...I had no help and had to lug my 13month old as I ran and panted and heaved and...you get the picture...

To me, not taking a child to a pre-planned event can make sense as a natural consequence depending on the situation. I told ds today that we aren't going to the park for a good long while because he runs away and that is NOT safe and it puts me in a really bad spot.

I'll be honest and say that at this point in my gd journey there are times we punish (taking away privileges like going to eat, going to a friend's house, etc) because we are so spent that we don't have the energy to do xyz. If I've just exhausted myself in dealing with a runner/ whatever, I may not be in the mood to go out and have fun and all la dee da. Sorry bub.

Huh, I just told all this to dh and he totally disagrees with me! He's usually the stricter of the two. He agreed with pps that it wasn't fair to the birthday boy and we would let our son go and figure out another way to deal with the problem...I may have to think about this more.
post #172 of 195
Just tossing in my 2 cents -

The thing that's wrong with it, IMO, is the hurt it inflicted on an innocent bystander. She chose to create a situation where another child was going to be hurt, so that makes it a bad punishment, whatever your views are on the value of punishment itself. I don't see why another child should have to be disappointed on their birthday, to teach her son a lesson. It's just not very compassionate to the other child.

Other than that, if your kid runs off a few times and won't come back, it seems reasonable to me to not let the kid out of the house for a while. Lock the doors and try to figure out why the kid is running away!

ETA - The end result for the birthday child is the same, yes - his friend isn't there. But we, as adults who are supposed to know better, should not *manufacture* situations like this. Illness can't be helped. The mom had choices in how to handle her DC's running away.

And Rabbitmum, I think I understand what you are saying, and it didn't sound particularly narcissistic to me. I'd feel pretty bad about it too.
post #173 of 195
Maybe I'm confused, but I didn't think this kid was a "runner" being kept home because his parents were afraid of losing him at the party. I thought he was grounded because they were very upset that he tried to hide from them after going to see a friend without permission. I thought he was kept home from the party to demonstrate the severity of what he had done wrong.

The only thought I have left after 9 pages is that this problem behavior had gone on less than a week. That isn't much time to try anything closer to home in terms of problem solving. The parents put all their cards on the table in one swoop. There isn't much left to do once you get to the point of not letting a 6 be the guest of honor at his best friends party. For everyone's sake I certainly hope this worked, because I don't know what these parents are going to do next if he repeats the original behavior. They haven't given themselves much of an "out" if this doesn't work, kwim?

Rabbitsmum I understood your meaning too. As a child I would have felt exactly as you described--totally humiliated and afraid to face you again. Not all kids will react that way but some really do, and it would be a terrible feeling to know you were unwittingly implicated in a situation that led to that feeling.
post #174 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd View Post
And Rabbitmum, I think I understand what you are saying, and it didn't sound particularly narcissistic to me. I'd feel pretty bad about it too.
Me, too.

As a child I was punished in a similar manner, and whenever I saw the lady next door (who's house I was not allowed to go to as punishment that day) I felt terrible shame, assuming that my parents had told her how rotten I was and that she must agree. It never would have occurred to me that she might have felt compassion for me because it never could have occurred to me at that age that my parents were ever wrong.
post #175 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama View Post
Maybe I'm confused, but I didn't think this kid was a "runner" being kept home because his parents were afraid of losing him at the party. I thought he was grounded because they were very upset that he tried to hide from them after going to see a friend without permission. I thought he was kept home from the party to demonstrate the severity of what he had done wrong.
I agree, they kept him home to teach him a lesson, not necessarily for his own immediate safety. If it had been a trip to the park or something, I think that would have been justified, but that's just me. It's a trust thing, yk?
They may not have thought he would leave the *party*, per se, but they have to know he will be within the parameters they have set for him, and if he demonstrated *just that day* that he couldn't be trusted to do that, I think it's reasonable to cancel outside activities and stick to the house until the issue is resolved.

EXCEPT, cancelling his attendance was thoughtless of the birthday child, and therefore inappropriate. I have to add that disclaimer, in case someone didn't read my previous post.
post #176 of 195
Quote:
On another note, parents whose children run away from them. Well, DH and I call to our children before they get too far away that "we are going this way and we hope they come with us" (we've explained to our children that we will never ever leave them, but sometimes we need to go a different way and it would be really sucky if they went another way); most of the time this works. I almost never run after my children (unless they are in danger); I definately would not have chased my child for 30 minutes (I probably would have said, "Well, I'm going home now and going to bed. . .I'll probably lock the door so I hope you come too so you don't have to sleep outside).
I have the kid who would say "Ok, bye" if I told him I was going in a different direction. And unless you're prepared to follow through on things like that (leaving, locking kids out) I would recommend not telling them that you're going to do so. Unless you're clearly joking when you say it, it's a good way to get them to not take you seriously.
post #177 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by sledg View Post
I like and agree with the following:

Quote:
"And, very important, punishment-any punishment-devalues human suffering, simply because it is the intentional infliction of suffering. Parents are those individuals in a child's world who are supposed to represent the side of good. When they intentionally inflict suffering, the implicit message to the child is that suffering must be a legitimate means to an end. Punishment as a part of child-rearing practice teaches the child that human suffering is not an absolute harm." (Anthony Wolf, The Secret of Parenting)
I completely agree, this is exactly the point. There is enough suffering in the world already, we shouldn't add to it on purpose. There is a lot of suffering we as parents can't save our children from - there will always be losses, sickness, pain, embarrassments - it's certainly not our job to add to them.

If you have (and teach your children) the attitude that it doesn't matter that you inflict a little suffering here and there when you feel that it is "right", you don't know what the consequences or extent will be of that suffering. Maybe that person that you or your child "punish" for something, is a person already hurt and lying down, and the extra suffering that you add hurts much more than you intended. This can be the case for your own children too. You don't really know how much your punishment will hurt or how betrayed they will feel, unless you have a complete insight in their feelings and motivations at the time, which you don't.
post #178 of 195
Ok, I guess I have changed my mind. I origionally thought it was done out of safety-don't know why...

I guess I would agree that taking away something like that out of the context of safety doesn't really make sense to me. I just have children who sometimes can't calm themselves or stop themselves yet, so I tended to think of it in light of that.
post #179 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
I think at the VERY least, the mother should have warned you. A no-show to a party is a no-show to a party at any age, and the host should be notified ASAP.
:

The child who was punished by not being allowed to go to the party was taught by his parents that it's ok to go back on your word for arbitrary reasons.

I don't agree with this punishment at all. If you want to help foster personal responsibility, why would you skip something you previously agreed to go to?

I understand sometimes people get sick or whatever, but going to the birthday party was a commitment. I realize that some adults don't put much stock in kid's parties, but sheesh, a commitment is a commitment.

I would have allowed my child to go. Simply because we had agreed to go and it wouldn't be fair to the host to back off.
post #180 of 195
OP,
I am sorry your son was disappointed and it would have been better if your friend gave you advanced warning but I agree with Roar. I think the way you present it to your child and the way you deal with it are what is important in this situation.
As far as I am concerned the reason a child does not come to the party is out of your hands, whether it is sickness, punishment, running away, not wanting to get in the carseat ect.. If it was my child I would focus on the fact that I was sorry her friend wasn't there but we can have a great time anyway. Which is what it sounds like your son did.
I also think it is pretty nice your friend showed up to help even though her son could not come.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Gentle Discipline
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › Grr... your punishment just crushed MY kid!