Slow to learn respect, mom and son

[ischoll]

I frimly believe that spanking doesn't help my son learn, but unfortunately,I have done it anyways when I am so frustrated that I don't know what to do. My son is 4.5 and I am slowly getting him to use his words instead of hitting when something doesn't go his way. Now, he has a new habit of sticking his tongue out at me when I tell him something that he doesn't want to hear or do. I have explained that it is rude, that he can hurt his tongue if his teeth close and yesterday I slapped him on the cheek with the tip of 3 fingers. Yes, I regret this, I know it isn't right, it doesn't work....He isn't doing it as much, but still doing it.

I am looking for better ideas for teaching him to not stick his tongue out, not hit, not purposely make a mess, name call.....This is a huge button for me and gets worse when my 2.5 dd starts crying/whining. I don't want to spank/hit, I just don't know what to do anymore. I am not interested in outright ignoring the behaviour.I am interested in any advice that will help us change our behaviours and overcome this.

[sailormom]

:
waiting to hear any suggestions for you. I too need help.
Good for you for asking for help!!

[TortelliniMama]

I should get to bed, so I'm only going to write about the tongue sticking-out. First, I think it's wonderful that you're working to find ways to stop hitting. It's a powerful change, and an amazing gift to give your kids.

Originally Posted by ischoll

I am not interested in outright ignoring the behaviour.I am interested in any advice that will help us change our behaviours and overcome this.

The problem is, the method that's very likely to get him to stop sticking his tongue out *is* to ignore it. Actively trying to make him stop is going to turn it into a power struggle, which isn't going to end well.

I don't know if you'd be interested in considering techniques that don't involve telling him to stop, but which aren't exactly ignoring the situation:

He sticks his tongue out. You say one of the following:
(1) "If you want to tell me you don't want to go home now [or whatever message he's trying to communicate], then you can say, 'Mama, I don't want to go home. Can we stay a little longer?'"

You don't have to always agree to whatever it is he wants (although you may sometimes realize that you're willing to go for it), but you can talk about various options and try to find something that will work for both of you. And, if you negotiate when it's possible to, he's more likely to accept a definite no when it has to be that way (especially if you explain the reasoning).

(2) in a very casual manner, "If you want to have your tongue out, please sit down. I don't want you to trip and bite yourself by accident."

This suggestion is in response to your concern about him hurting himself doing this. Personally, it's not a big worry of mine, but maybe it'll give you some peace of mind. Plus, the sheer novelty of your lack of interest in getting his tongue inside his mouth may shock him into pulling it in.

(3) "Well...I guess it's okay if you stick your tongue out. Just as long as you don't [horrified voice] give me a hug/do a silly dance/spin around."

This is the kind of thing talked about in Lawrence Cohen's Playful Parenting book. Great book. He would probably also suggest sticking your own tongue out, maybe even repeating your request/whatever led to the problem with your tongue out, just to be silly. The idea is to take the power away from the action of sticking out his tongue. The reason he's doing it is because of the meaning you're attaching to it. If you take away the negative meaning, it will lose its allure.

Better go get some sleep!

[grantskismom+1]

When my son sticks his tongue out at me I stick my tongue out back. I don't see the harm in sticking the tongue out. When he does this he's upset at me and it's probably one of the healthier ways to express his anger. Rather than the situation getting out of control we typically have a good laugh and we can talk about why he's upset.

I don't see a problem with purposely making a mess. Kids make messes. That's all there is to it. In fact we make messes together and then clean them up together.

I feel the same way about name calling. My son hasn't done this in anger yet but he calls our dog names when he's angry. So what? He'll learn more effective ways to deal with anger at a later date. Before the age of 6 life is so freaking tough and confusing that one has to be able to call their mother a "poopy face" every now and again.

As for hitting, that's crossing the line for me. There is NO hitting in my home. None. It's just not tolerated. When hitting takes place the child is removed from others until they can control their actions. They are shown that the only way to touch people is gently.

Overall, the best thing you can do is not take it personally, which is sounds like you are. The best way to overcome these behaviors is to realize they are age appropriate and TRUST (I think trust is the biggest component of Gentle Discipline) that your child will learn more age appropriate behaviors as he grows up. Build a loving and close relationship while modeling healthy behaviors and he will do just fine.

[alegna]

I see two acceptable responses:

ignore it
or
show how silly it is

But it comes down to- you have to stop taking it seriously. As long as he knows your buttons are that easy to push, he's going to push them.

Take hitting out of your toolbox. It is never acceptable. If your husband was hitting you it would never be okay.

-Angela

[grantskismom+1]

Originally Posted by TortelliniMama

The idea is to take the power away from the action of sticking out his tongue. The reason he's doing it is because of the meaning you're attaching to it. If you take away the negative meaning, it will lose its allure.

This is the method we use for just about everything (except hitting). I have my bad days where I get angry and don't live up to this ideal but I'd say that my son is a product of this method of parenting 85% of the time. Everything just a big joke to us. There is no single method that I've found more effective.

For example, the other day my son heard me call the dog a "pain in the @ss." So what is he doing? Calling the dog a pain in the @ss. Most parents will tell the kid to stop using that word and punish them when they do. Instead I tell my son, "You know what's funnier? You should call the dog a pain in the belly button." Then we roll on the floor laughing while we tell the dog over and over again that she's a pain in the belly button. At this age kids like silly. Use silly to your advantage!!!!

[alegna]

Another thought- you mention in the title "slow to learn respect." I'm not sure if you're speaking of your son or both of you...

BUT- why should he have any respect for someone who hits him? I would think it a wise, intuitive choice to NOT trust those who hurt us. I respect that you're trying to change and you should be applauded for it But if you just hit him today, you've not yet taken this out of your acceptable responses.

-Angela

[LynnS6]

I would recommend 2 books:

Kids, Parents & Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. Despite it's title, it's a good general parenting book, and it can help you look at situations like these and understand a bit more why/what it is that's triggering you and how to respond.

Playful Parenting - that's a great book for coming up with alternative responses that don't raise the anger threshold.

I would also ask: why is ignoring the tongue thing out of the question? Why does it trigger you so?

We all have our triggers, and understanding them might help you avoid the knee-jerk reaction that causes you to hit your son. it's the knee-jerk reactions that are the hardest to 'cure', but it's worth the effort.

[ischoll]

Thank you for the helpful solutions. I will look for those books and try not to take it personally.

Why does sticking out his tongue trigger me? I feel like what I am saying is being ignored and not important enough for him to listen to when I believe that it is very important. "Don't splash the water in your sister's face. She doesn't like it and she is telling you no." I would consider crossing someone else's boundary important. My weak boundaries have been pushed enough in my life. The tongue is better than hitting and taking the place of it. I am scared that he will grow up to be a bully, not be able to negotiate or communicate later in life, will always push the wrong boundaries, nor listen to others. People start teaching their children language and other skills at a young age, why not manners as well? (Manners= big, big thing and a whole other story with me)

I am working to change what I have learnt from my upbringing and dh's and other's close to us. I feel like I am drinking from a firehose and not always retaining the info or being able to recall it in the "heat of the moment". My mom and step dad weren't into listening to me. Self esteem issues, blah, blah ,blah. Yah, I am not the only one with a sucky childhood, I know. Pent up emotions and I want my son to be better than me. Dh works a lot, so the kids and I do lots of other things together and I do some work from home. I give them my time, as much patience as I can muster when both are screaming and loads of love. I just want to feel heard when I have to say "no" to something that hurts someone else, is something he can't handle yet or it is totally inappropriate.

I will work more on being silly despite what my past was and getting him to use more words. Another solution that may work is saying " if you want to find a solution let me know. In the meantime, I am going to go do..." That gets me out of his reach till I calm down. As long as he doesn't follow me to hit me, it should work. I need ot work on being more consistent and I have noticed that holding him till he can control his body has worked too. It is all still so overwhelming sometimes to try to be the mom that you read about in books or dream of being.

[rabbitmum]

Originally Posted by ischoll

I am scared that he will grow up to be a bully, not be able to negotiate or communicate later in life, will always push the wrong boundaries, nor listen to others. People start teaching their children language and other skills at a young age, why not manners as well? (Manners= big, big thing and a whole other story with me)

I completely remember this fear of "what will happen to the child if this doesn't stop" from when my daughter was young! I think this fear was behind most of our clashes. In retrospect I see that I should have trusted her built-in ability and will to grow up and learn to be a good member of society, and not let myself get so stressed from those episodes of "disrespectful" behaviour.

So my advice is to take a step back and look at the bigger picture when your son does things that trigger you. He has found a very effective way of annoying you, but remember that he might be reacting like this partly because he is nervous because of lacking a way out of an unpleasant situation that is adequate in terms of his respect for you and his own dignity. I'm sure his sticking his tongue out is not a sign that he lacks respect for you.

Yes, I agree we should teach children manners from a young age, but bear in mind that it takes a really long time and that when they are little it is mostly done by example. I think your son is probably big enough that you can explain why you don't like him sticking his tongue out at you, but it is better to take those conversations when you're not actually in a heated situation.

As for hitting him, I think the most effective thing you can do about it is just to make a decision to never do it no matter what. Knowing about alternative and better parenting strategies will not be a complete remedy against this because there will always be new situations arising that you didn't expect and aren't prepared for. So if you get to the point where you feel completely powerless and feel the impulse to hit him, just go out of the room (without saying anything to blame him), or stop the argument there and then if you are in a place where you can't leave him for a couple of minutes.

You don't have to win every argument immediately, you can always discuss whatever the matter was with him later when things are calmer. Remember that in a few years he won't be sticking his tongue out at you, and he certainly won't be doing that when he is grown up, but you will still remember that you hit him. I'm sure you know this already, but I find that keeping it firmly in mind helps me not to lose my patience so easily.

Good luck!

[flapjack]

I'm having an epiphany at this moment: I think that your son's childish response (sticking his tongue out) is a response to stress and a request that you lower the pressure because he can't deal right now. Certainly my ds2 does things like this- and I'm going to try looking at it as HIM initiating a humour-based playful approach to confrontation and try reacting accordingly.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by TortelliniMama

I:

He sticks his tongue out. You say one of the following:
(1) "If you want to tell me you don't want to go home now [or whatever message he's trying to communicate], then you can say, 'Mama, I don't want to go home. Can we stay a little longer?'"
(snip)
(2) in a very casual manner, "If you want to have your tongue out, please sit down. I don't want you to trip and bite yourself by accident."

I love both of these! Truth be told, I think that the 2nd one would be more effective for your ds. Think of the shock factor! hehehe.
After it became less of a hot button for you, I definitely like the first one.

I agree with the pp who said that what he's doing now isn't indicative of how he is going to treat people in the future. I try to tell you this sometimes, but I guess I'm better at typing than I am at talking. I think the other kids that you see that HAVE grown up and act in ways that we wouldn't consider acceptable, there's way more to it than just stuff like this. It's not based on the response to one particular issue. It has a lot more to do with the overall parenting, the relationship between the parent and child, and honestly, I think permissive parenting plays a role in it too (in general- I don't know the kids you are talking about). You are not permissive at all.
"Disrespectful" behavior at this age isn't indicative that your ds is going to be disrespectful when he's older, is what I'm saying. There's a much bigger picture that contributes to that.
I don't know if I've told you before, but I think that connection is the most important aspect of discipline. Anything that interferes with that connection is just going to make discipline that much harder. On both of you.
Not that I'm perfect, you know I have good theories, it just doesn't always come out the way I want it to. hehehe

[JulieK]

Originally Posted by TortelliniMama

The problem is, the method that's very likely to get him to stop sticking his tongue out *is* to ignore it. Actively trying to make him stop is going to turn it into a power struggle, which isn't going to end well.


(3) "Well...I guess it's okay if you stick your tongue out. Just as long as you don't [horrified voice] give me a hug/do a silly dance/spin around."

I don't know how to do multiple quotes, so I'll comment on the items I've left above. I also haven't read all the posts, but I have to totally agree about the ignoring. It is SO hard (I'm going through it with spitting), but it really is the only thing that works. The problem is that it takes a few (or more) times for him to get bored and you have to do whatever it takes to not react while you're waiting.

Also, I've never thought of this third suggestion and I really love it. I can't wait to try it!! Why is it always so hard to make light of the situation? I know I have trouble keeping my own anger suppressed.

[Xoe]

Whenever I can, I like to "deflate the balloon." In other words, whatever my DD is trying to get out of something, I give her the opposite. If she stuck out her tongue at me, I'd either act like it didn't mean anything, or I'd act as if it meant her tongue hurt and ask her to keep it out or say "ahhh" as I inspected her tongue for signs of health. She'd probably break down and giggle at that response. But once she discovers something doesn't push one of my buttons, or get's the "wrong" response out of me, she usually abandons the behavior.

xoe

[ischoll]

Originally Posted by Xoe

I'd act as if it meant her tongue hurt and ask her to keep it out or say "ahhh" as I inspected her tongue for signs of health.
xoe

I love this. I can make this work. Things are also way better if we are not home. I am not as stressed and don't overeract. That usually happens at the end of the day duing the "witching" hour which is between bath and lights out. I am usually spent from requests.

Becky, your ideas are always great and do come across very well. thank you for being there for me. I like to see things in print as it helps me remember and I listen better and don't interrupt. I should ang this on my fridge.


Thanks to all your guy's help!!!

[Montessorimom8]

Where is he learning that behaviour? If it's TV or a friend I'd limit the exposure. To me that is the starting point, finding out where it is coming from.