Talk to me about Love & Logic

[Raw Vegan Mama]

A child development friend introduced me to Love & Logic last year (when my DS1 turned 2), and I have used it a little bit. However, the more I am looking in the GD section of this forum, the more I see that I have been parenting in a way that might not be ideal. And -- the Love and Logic (even when we are consistant for months) is not "working" anymore.

We started using it to help with the constant crying of our high needs child. Our kids are 18 months apart, so when the newborn came, the 18 month old's constant crying was putting us over the edge. So, using the Love and Logic approach, we said:

"If you cry, than you're tired, and if you are tired you go to bed." We would pick him up and put him in bed. He cried at first, but within a few weeks, he would stop crying when we said that. It worked for a few months, but then he just threw tantrums and yelled "Don't say that" all the time.

Please tell me your thoughts on Love & Logic and and what you like about it and what you don't. Nearly every school district I know encourages parents to use it (not that that means anything! lol!)

Oh, and please don't flame me for using Love & Logic....Thanks.

[fek&fuzz]

I haven't read the book, but there is a long thread in the adoption forum on it.

I can see how that phrase would get really annoying "If you are tired..." Crying doesn't always equal tired, so there isn't much "logic" to it. It seems like logic would be "Your crying is making the baby upset, or your crying is hurting my ears, so if you keep doing it you will have to go in your room."

I don't know what else you've tried but a Time In might be what's needed, or some Super Special Big Boy Alone Time Without the Baby.

[lesmac]

Originally Posted by Raw Vegan Mama

A So, using the Love and Logic approach, we said:

"If you cry, than you're tired, and if you are tired you go to bed." We would pick him up and put him in bed. He cried at first, but within a few weeks, he would stop crying when we said that. It worked for a few months, but then he just threw tantrums and yelled "Don't say that" all the time.

I have a couple of friends who swear by the L&L...but they do sometimes say that it's difficult to come up w/ the "logic" part of it, especially in the moment. The most I've taken from that book is "you d/n have to wear your coat, but pls take it w/ you in case it turns cold."

I agree w/ the PP. I'm not seeing crying = tired. (But I d/n live w/ you, and you are his mother...)

This is only my (very humble) opinion, but he may be telling you to stop saying that b/c it's not his reality. He's crying, he's not tired, but you're telling him he is.

I also avoid "mirror" statements (Harvey Karp stuff): LO says "I'm tired!" and starts screaming. The response "You're tired! ARGH!" d/n really demonstrate your understanding to LO, and, quite honestly, I think LO is thinking that you're mocking (rather than mimicking) him.

We use "Your crying (around here it's screaming) is rattling Mommy's brain. You need to stop or you will be removed from the dinner table/Mommy will find a more quiet place to read/etc."

Good luck.

[rabbitmum]

Originally Posted by Raw Vegan Mama

"If you cry, than you're tired, and if you are tired you go to bed." We would pick him up and put him in bed. He cried at first, but within a few weeks, he would stop crying when we said that. It worked for a few months, but then he just threw tantrums and yelled "Don't say that" all the time.

I haven't read the book, but my mother used to say exactly that line. I hated it! It felt like she didn't care why I was crying at all, and was just threatening me to make me stop. I completely understand why your son doesn't want you to say it. It sounds like more logic than love to me.

[Raw Vegan Mama]

I think you all are so right!

The L&L people & supporters claimed the phrase would change the behavior, but it really didn't. Plus -- I never realized how insensitive it was. I think the statement "more logic than love" is fitting, but now I am thinking it is not logical at all. Just because a child is crying, doesn't mean they are tired.

I feel like such crap for ignoring my DS's feelings for so long.

[mytwogirls]

Hi, my two girls are 16 months apart, and I don't know what you mean exactly by "high needs" toddler, but my two year old is very energetic and cries a LOT too. I stay home with her and her 10 month old sister and the oldest seems to be very needy. It can get SO frustrating with the constant crying, whining and tantrums. I tried the logic thing and it only lasted a couple of days. Now, I just try and figure out why she is crying. Is she tired? Hungry? Hurt? Sick? The other day I ran through the list and it turned out the poor thing was just thirsty! (Ok, now I feel like bad mom, but I was swamped with a lot to do and forgot about refilling the water cup! Oops!) Anyway, it seems to be working ok, I wouldn't even try L&L, but that is just my opinion.

[sparklefairy]

Well, I was recently told that the L&L way to get kids to pick up their rooms is to tell them that they don't get dinner until they do. And listening to the tapes once I heard them suggest to tell an older child that thus and so would be done by the end of the day and to wake them up just before midnight to do it if it doesn't get done before they go to bed.

I find the approach to be adversarial and sometimes passive-aggressive. And totally icky.

[Raw Vegan Mama]

Thanks to the GD section of MDC, I don't feel that I will not be using Love and Logic now or in the future!

I feel so silly for listening to my friend, and not doing tons of reseach on it. She is very mainstream, but I thought with her child development background, she would have a good solution that wasn't what I grew up with (hitting, spanking, yelling, guilting, embarrasing, etc. the child). I guess I was just too tired with the baby to figure out a better way.

[Raw Vegan Mama]

Originally Posted by sparklefairy

I find the approach to be adversarial and sometimes passive-aggressive. And totally icky.

Looking back at the parents I know that do L&L, I think you are right on. it is VERY passive-aggressive, and I don't want to raise my kids to be that way.

[rabbitmum]

Originally Posted by Raw Vegan Mama

The L&L people & supporters claimed the phrase would change the behavior, but it really didn't.

That's the problem with many "parenting techniques", they focus on the child's behaviour instead of what is going on inside the child or between the people involved.

So from what I have heard about it here, I wouldn't use that book either.

Don't feel too bad about it, it's impossible to be a perfect mother all the time. We live and we learn!

[Cabrnay]

We use Love and Logic. I think it's all in how you use it. It is hard to deal in the heat of the moment.

I have never woken my kids up at midnight. I have said. "do you want to pick up your toys or should mommy?" When she says Mommy, I pick up the toys and she doesn't get them back for a few days. She almost always picks them up now. There is an extreme group of L&L people that do rather bizarre "logical" consequences.

I also ask if she is going to make a "happy choice or a sad choice" when she is throwing a tantrum. I don't know what I will do when she makes a sad choice as she always chooses happy.

[hedgewitch]

Don't be hard on yourself!! You are doing the right thing which is seeking info and strategies that will help your home be happy and peaceful. This one isn't working so a new strategy might be in order. I found dipping into Becoming the Parent You Want To Be, is nice as it talks more about how to go about formulating choices rather than the specifics of the issues. I can't recommend Raising Your Spirited Child enough, in fact I am about to re-read it. I am also reading a book by Diane Loomas which is called something like 12 Things Every Child Wants Their Parent to Know. It is very gentle and inspiring with lots of tips without being a 'style'.

I honestly think that the best thing you can do as a parent is be authentic. If you don't feel something suits you and your child do something else. Even if I find a strategy works a) I know it won't last forever and b) I won't follow all of the 'school' it comes from. I just don't find a lot of ideas resonate with what I feel my family should be. I also recognise my real limits, what is and isn't possible for me.

It sounds like you might need to work out your dc's temperament (Spirited Child has all that info) so that you can anticipate his needs and the issues that might come up.

Good luck and be kind to yourself. Remember that you are learning and growing just as much as your child is

[Unconventional1]

There are parts of L&L I am okay with- such as giving your kids choices- I was a nanny for 2 year old twins- I asked them which shirt they wanted, or what choice of lunch, or do you want to leave the playground in five or ten minutes. I think you can take some good out of many parenting techniques- but I have yet to find *one* that is the do all, end all of parenting. You need to find what works for you and your family.

[hippymomma69]

Not a fan of Love and Logic...although it has been an improvement for some of the moms I know who used punitive Time Outs for every little infraction. But some of the "logic" doesn't make sense to me as it's been explained to me by the folks I know who use it....but maybe they are confused.

Anyway, just wondering how old your LO is now? My DD was a high needs toddler and it turns out she had some special needs that needed addressing....constant screaming sounds a bit out of the norm to me for simply high needs - have you ever had your LO evaluated by a developmental pediatrician to make sure you aren't missing some other issues with him? Not saying there is anything especially wrong - but I know it was somewhat of a relief to me to realize that my DD did indeed have some special issues that could never be addressed by "discipline"....

good luck
peace,
robyn

[sparklefairy]

Originally Posted by Cabrnay

We use Love and Logic. I think it's all in how you use it. It is hard to deal in the heat of the moment.

I have never woken my kids up at midnight. I have said. "do you want to pick up your toys or should mommy?" When she says Mommy, I pick up the toys and she doesn't get them back for a few days. She almost always picks them up now. There is an extreme group of L&L people that do rather bizarre "logical" consequences.

I also ask if she is going to make a "happy choice or a sad choice" when she is throwing a tantrum. I don't know what I will do when she makes a sad choice as she always chooses happy.

I would feel just fine about that if she knew what to expect if she wanted mommy to do it.

This was not an "extreme" group thing -- the waking a kid up was right off the L&L disc that I borrowed. It was suggested for teenagers.

Why is it not okay to be sad?

[sweetpeppers]

I wouldn't like to be treated that way, so I don't use it. I also think they misuse the phrase "natural consequences." A better book is How to Talk so that Kids listen and How to Listen so that Kids will Talk.

[CorasMama]

I took a L&L class at our daughter's school. We quit after I got into a "debate" with the teacher ("facilitator") about developmentally appropriate behavior and discipline. It started after we watched a video of the founder/leader of L&L, recommending locking a 2y.o. in his room for having a tantrum! The whole thing had been too punitive. It annoyed me to be constantly sitting there, listening to parents being told (and believing) stuff I knew was wrong and hurtful. I wanted to scream, "just because something gets a child to 'fall in line', doesn't mean it's good or right."

[One_Girl]

I think that when a baby is crying they need to be held, especially when you have displaced them with a new and in their eyes more perfect baby. It seems like he has a need and he is tired of you meeting his need by isolating him. When you have kids you have crying and when you ignore them you have resentment and more crying. If you don't want to hear so much crying be proactive about giving him the time he needs rather than just the time you prefer to give him and do it in fun ways. Try to remember that while the new baby is a blessing to you it is a curse to him and he is so young that he needs to see in tangible ways that you love and care for him, hearing you say it is not enough especially when your actions tell him you don't care for him.

While some of the Love and logic ideas are pretty good for much older children in regards to taking responsibility I don't think that it is a good program on the whole. I especially despise their advice that parents should teach kids to obey on command like a German Shepard dog by smacking them around.

[sparklefairy]

Originally Posted by Raw Vegan Mama

Thanks to the GD section of MDC, I don't feel that I will not be using Love and Logic now or in the future!

I feel so silly for listening to my friend, and not doing tons of reseach on it. She is very mainstream, but I thought with her child development background, she would have a good solution that wasn't what I grew up with (hitting, spanking, yelling, guilting, embarrasing, etc. the child). I guess I was just too tired with the baby to figure out a better way.

I understand (((RVM))) Mine are a little farther apart in age (2 years) but I definitely made a lot of "surviving overwhelm-ment" decisions that I wish I could go back and do differently. (Mine were mostly of the permissive kind.) We do the best we can with what we have at the time, and then we make amends, forgive ourselves, and move on.

[luvmytwo]

My husband and I took this course and I found it to be somewhat helpful. Mostly in giving the child choices to choose from. The part that stressed me out was the letting your child decide for themselves when to go to bed (staying in their room at bedtime going to bed when "they" wanted to), when to clean their rooms etc. I wasn't sure if this was actually teaching the kids anything. They would just have a messy room and be tired. Would giving them this much control really help them learn?