Talk to me about Love & Logic - Page 3

[boheime]

Well in that particular situation, what about saying, "Let's get these toys picked up" and then explain why - so we don't trip on them, so we can find them when we want them, because it makes you feel calm when the house is picked up, etc. Or say, "let's pick up teh toys so we can go......<insert whatever activity>. My children are much more likely to want to help around the house when they feel it is a team effort. I also think it's important to have realistic expectations. You could make a game out of it. And if all else fails, you can model it.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

Yeah, I think they revised their stand on spanking. It seems to me that they are anti-spanking now (at least from the article that I remember reading).
I was just saying that it's very likely that the pp DID read something pro-spanking in the book, if she had an older version.

i have never read love and logic. i don't really know much about it..... but i wanted to say that they do have a statement at their website stating they are definitely anti-spanking now. just wanted to verify you are correct.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Alvenchrst

Going back to the 2 year old picking up toys discussion. If you didn't see the "do you want mommy to pick up your toys (and keep them) or do you want to do it?" choice given as a desirable parenting method, what DO you do? Do you simply not teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys? Certainly a 2 year old is developmentally capable of clean up their toys. Do you wait till they are older? Only have them do it when they are cooperative?

I think it's great that there has been a lot of disagreement to certain L&L scenarios presented in this thread, but there have been no alternative approaches to those specific scenarios other then wait till they are older. I am really interested in how you would teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys without using confiscation of toys or time outs. Do you just clean up for them? That's what I've done for years, and honestly I don't think it's healthy and being permissive can be just as damaging as being punitive. What does your middle ground look like????
Thanks.

My favourite book pretty much for "daily life, getting things done" is How to talk so kids... and in that case I'd say "Noah, toys."

I also like the Secret of Parenting as a /thought starter/. Some of the tactics in there do not appeal to me for our family but I loved some of the thinking and stories in there. In this case 1. that "doing it for them" but expressing things about it "okay, then I will clean up the toys. But I'm not that happy about it." CAN be helpful. Most especially though, 2., the idea that the I think he calls it "baby self" of young kids is probably not going to put them in a place where they will clean up their toys when they are recovering from other stresses (like school), and that the long-term goal is self actualizing adults, not winning every battle.

I liked that and the story about the garbage cans.

But.

I don't actually think early two year olds necessarily can clean up toys out of a sense of duty or obligation. I disagree with your "surely they're ready for that." They just don't have the impulse control or the desire to be non-oppositional.

What they can do it out of is fun or routine. So making it fun and a routine helps a lot. I don't think that's poor modelling. I frequently put on good music so that cleaning is more fun for myself.

[natural_momma]

Originally Posted by sweetpeppers

I wouldn't like to be treated that way, so I don't use it. I also think they misuse the phrase "natural consequences." A better book is How to Talk so that Kids listen and How to Listen so that Kids will Talk.

I second this recommendation...(I read both)

Not a fan of L&L. There are some good nuggets if you are a critical thinker, but most of it is not appropriate for young children IMO. It seems based on the assumption that your kids are going to fight you every step of the way just for the sake of being oppositional, rather than looking into positive ways of communicating w/kids on their level and in ways that are impactful from the child's developmental perspective.

L&L is pretty passive-aggressive and I think it can be easily abused and taken way too far. Someone I know took it so far as to lock their 10yo out of the house overnight for something he did (don't remember particulars, but they somehow made this a logical consequence and justified it w/L&L). I understand the whole teaching responsibility thing, but I think sometimes you have to cut people (incl. kids) some slack, after all there are times when I need them to cut me some slack as well.

One piece I do use and like is the allowance/chore system. Allowance is practice money that we give free of strings ie it is not 'earned'. However if you don't want to do your chores you have to 'hire' someone to do them (just like dh doesn't get paid to mow the lawn, but if he doesn't want to do it he has to shell out some $ for someone else to). Granted dd is 5 and it's $1/week and her only chore is feeding the dog, but she has never chosen to spend the $.25 to hire me to do it for her (not that it would be a big deal if she did--she'd get a vacation and I'd be up a quarter I keep it very lighthearted and she's not lacking for anything so if she ever chooses to part w/the money it's mostly symbolic). She's very proud of taking care of our dog and rarely needs reminding. I'm sure it will always be this easy

I haven't really delved into it too much yet but I also have the Sears Discipline Book and it seems on-track.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by natural_momma

Someone I know took it so far as to lock their 10yo out of the house overnight for something he did (don't remember particulars, but they somehow made this a logical consequence and justified it w/L&L). I understand the whole teaching responsibility thing, but I think sometimes you have to cut people (incl. kids) some slack, after all there are times when I need them to cut me some slack as well.

i've never read the book....but certainly the authors would frown upon this example given (or at least i hope!!!!). people who follow a philosophy very strictly...ya know, there is always going to be an extremist who behaves irrationally...lol. but that certainly doesn't mean it's justified and can be blamed on the parenting philosophy itself. i mean there are people who claim to follow "this" or "that" philosophy....but the examples they give here don't actually line up with that teaching at all. anyway, like i said...i've not read the book - but locking a child out of the house all night???? that's crazy!!!! surely the authors of L&L would agree!

[kacymoose]

Originally Posted by Alvenchrst

Going back to the 2 year old picking up toys discussion. If you didn't see the "do you want mommy to pick up your toys (and keep them) or do you want to do it?" choice given as a desirable parenting method, what DO you do? Do you simply not teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys? Certainly a 2 year old is developmentally capable of clean up their toys. Do you wait till they are older? Only have them do it when they are cooperative?

I think it's great that there has been a lot of disagreement to certain L&L scenarios presented in this thread, but there have been no alternative approaches to those specific scenarios other then wait till they are older. I am really interested in how you would teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys without using confiscation of toys or time outs. Do you just clean up for them? That's what I've done for years, and honestly I don't think it's healthy and being permissive can be just as damaging as being punitive. What does your middle ground look like????
Thanks.

A two year old is capable of cleaning up toys, but in many cases it is not important enough TO HIM to want to do it on a regular basis. Not requiring a two year old to pick up toys isn't being permissive, more likely realistic IMO. If picking up is required, in most situations the parent will have to either resort to punishment or rewards. Rewards make actually work for a while, but when they stop working the parent is going to be in for power struggle central. Then once the power struggles kick in, that is when it is damaging to the relationship.

This is the way that I look at it. We have so many more toys than kids had generations ago. When you look at history - kids just had a few special toys and could understand that if something happened to those it would be a while before they would get a replacement (if ever). The overload of toys today, plus the pile on of gifts from friends/relatives totally changed how kids view their toys and they don't have the incentive to take care of them as children in past generations. This is not the child's fault that he doesn't have a high regard for toys.

As a parent, I feel that if it is important to me that the toys be picked up, I take care of it. If the kids help great! If not, I'm modeling what I would like to see. I think it is also great to model that it is fun. If they see me being grumpy about picking it up, they are not going to want to do something that they see as making me grumpy. If I enjoy what I am doing, they are more likely to join in.

So I say, you are already picking up after them, so just lose the guilt over it. Make it fun, have a silly routine or something, make cleaning up look inviting. They may not start helping right away, but slowly they will start to come around.

[Kathryn B]

I think that there are a lot of misunderstandings about the Love an Logic program. Love and Logic isn't about getting your children to do things your way, it's more about training yourself to be a better parent, to allow your children to have a certain amount of control and responsibility in their lives and having this result in a home of mutual respect. If there are methods we are using which we feel are not respectful or are passive-aggressive, we are probably not doing them right since the whole program is about allowing our children to learn and to recognize the results of their actions. The methods promoted in Love and Logic do not relieve parents of the responsibility of modifying and personalizing things for our individual children -- we are supposed to use our brains and strive to understand what will work best for each of our children. Everything is supposed to be done in Love and is supposed to be Logical -- if it isn't, then we are doing it wrong; it's as simple as that. If we are consistent in our learning and growing as parents, then Love and Logic will continue to be successful. If we use the methods to try and manipulate our children, then we aren't following the program at all.

[pitchfork]

Naomi ALdort's book, Raising our Children Raising Ourselves is a great book for using actual love and actual logic with children and getting our own reactions out of the way. I highly recommend it!

[natural_momma]

I don't think I misunderstand any of the book. I do understand that they advocate training babies like dogs and leaving infants to cry in their room when they are unhappy ("obnoxious"). They recommend hiring a babysitter and going to a hotel if your child is in the habit of coming to you at night, and pretending to give away the family pet if the child doesn't do chores. I'm sure plenty of parents can filter out this sort of ridiculousness, but since the authors explicitly state that you should not listen to your instincts when making parenting decisions, I would be concerned about the number who would buy into the techniques 100%. Clearly the person I know who locked their child out is one of those cases, but they truly believed they were being loving and logical. I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I respect the abilities of most parents to take-and-leave parts of any method. There were a few on-point ideas in the book, especially for older children. As a whole though, the negatives outweigh the positives for me, and I would never recommend it. I'm surprised to find so many people here who do.

Kathryn B, the way you state it sounds wonderful and I'm sure you are using the method for the best in your family. It sounds like how I try to parent...Just not what I got from the book. I'm wondering if you went to a great workshop or something that made the difference.

[Eavesdrop]

The edition I've read -- "Parenting With Love and Logic" (1990) -- approves of corporal punishment.

[Ell-Bell]

Originally Posted by Alvenchrst

Going back to the 2 year old picking up toys discussion. If you didn't see the "do you want mommy to pick up your toys (and keep them) or do you want to do it?" choice given as a desirable parenting method, what DO you do? Do you simply not teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys? Certainly a 2 year old is developmentally capable of clean up their toys. Do you wait till they are older? Only have them do it when they are cooperative?

I think it's great that there has been a lot of disagreement to certain L&L scenarios presented in this thread, but there have been no alternative approaches to those specific scenarios other then wait till they are older. I am really interested in how you would teach your 2 year old to clean up their toys without using confiscation of toys or time outs. Do you just clean up for them? That's what I've done for years, and honestly I don't think it's healthy and being permissive can be just as damaging as being punitive. What does your middle ground look like????
Thanks.

Originally Posted by kacymoose

A two year old is capable of cleaning up toys, but in many cases it is not important enough TO HIM to want to do it on a regular basis. Not requiring a two year old to pick up toys isn't being permissive, more likely realistic IMO.

: I don't use threats, confiscations, or time outs with my 2 year old son. We try to practice Connection Parenting, or Unconditional Parenting, both great books. We lead by example. I say, "the floor is awfully messy, I might step on something! Let's clean up the toys." Then I start to clean them up. Sometimes DS joins right in, other times he doesn't. Sometimes I can just say, "Hey Max, will you grab that firetruck and put it in the bin?" and he'll do it. If he says no, I do it. If it's important to ME that the toys be put away then I do it. It might be important to him that the floor be clean if he wants to do a floor puzzle or something, in which case I might say, "We can't do the puzzle right now because the floor is covered with toys. Let's clean them up so we can play with the puzzle." I also try to have fun with it. We might race around the room trying to pick things up as fast as we can, or I might make the bin say, "Thank you" in a low voice every time he puts a toy in the bin.

Again, I think leading by example is a huge thing. Just this morning my son looked at some books and papers that had fallen onto the floor and said, "I make a mess!" my MIL said, "yep, there's a mess where the papers fell on the floor." and he thought for a moment, then said, "I clean it up!" and started to pick the books up. I said, "I'll help!" and together we picked up the papers and books. He's learning that when he makes a mess he should clean it up, but I'm also modeling that it's nice to help someone when there is cleaning to be done.

As for alternatives, I highly suggest the Alfie Kohn book, Unconditional Parenting. Also, Connection Parenting is available in book or CD form, as well as a downloadable MP3. I found listening to it a little slow and basic, but it's still good info.

There are a ton of great articles on the Joyfully Rejoicing website. Here's on on Getting your Kids to help with the Chores. The Natural Child Project also has some great articles, including "The Case against Time Out"