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Quiverful Tribe: It's Spring/Summer 2008! - Page 3

post #41 of 384
I just wanted to stop back by to say thank you for all the insightful and thought-provoking answers to my questions.

Also... whoever it was who made the ice cream analogy... I'm definitely going to start using that in my thoughts about petitioning God for blessings. Thanks!
post #42 of 384
Hi Mamas...

I didn't do my intro on this thread yet. I'm Alison, mama to one darling little man, who is 20 months old, and DP to J I am a student midwife, daycare provider, and I own my own business selling baby carriers. It's good to be here.

I have some sad news. The baby we were expecting at the end of 2008, early 2009 has flown. I wrote the whole ordeal out here but the basic gist is that I went for an ultrasound for a suspected ectopic and found I was further along than I thought I was, but the baby had stopped growing. My body thankfully completed the miscarriage without any intervention and now I am feeling much (physically) better.

J and I are planning on going to the next meeting at our local CAS (Childrens Aid Society). I keep feeling called to explore foster-adoption so we are going to get some more information. We are of course still leaving the fertility end of it up to the Lord. We know more children are meant to come into our family, we are just not sure how yet.

Anyway, that's my update for now. I'm glad to be back. *hugs*
post #43 of 384
So sorry.
post #44 of 384
Sorry Alison for your loss. I'm glad that things are ok physically.
post #45 of 384
I'm sorry for your loss Alison.

In my first intro post (which was rather dramatic lol) I stated that this is very new to us and we were very nervous about it for many reasons. I started to calm down and for the first time ever, we used no form of birth control (which was usually withdrawl/FAM).

Well, it was all fine and dandy and then I started to get fertile. Dh didn't recognize that at first but then yesterday he noticed and decided to withdrawl at the last minute. He felt guilty about it, but it's just so innate for him. I understand, I wasn't upset...it's going to take time to adjust to doing something you're so used to preventing.

Well here's where it gets cool! I haven't had eggwhite in years...even my last ds was conceived without it. Well today I had a TON of eggwhite. And dh and I both had the exact same thought at the same time...that maybe God used dh's "moment of weakness" to accomplish what He thought needed to be done in the first place...by giving me eggwhite...his seed from the other day very well might survive in order to give us a blessing. If that makes any sense.

Anyway, I'll be excited to see what the end of the cycle brings.
post #46 of 384
I am not QF, but have a question for you guys if you don't mind... It is kind of 3-fold.

1. What do you all think of the Duggars?
2. When the Duggars made their TV announcement that they are expecting baby #18, the expression on some of the 5-6 YO kids looked so sad- it just made me think that with that many kids, some of the littler ones probably don't want another baby- they want more time with their mommy. Is there ever a time you would think you shouldn't have more kids becuase of its effect on your LO's?
3. Is there anyone in your life who could convince you to stop having kids? I am thinking like a pastor/priest at your QF church- background for this question is that my aunt and uncle are QF, and my uncle has had severe anxiety problems related to supporting his large family, and their priest has told them to stop having kids but they won't (which I find distressing).

TIA if anyone minds answering my questions (I am not judging- just genuinely curious and trying to learn more/understand).
post #47 of 384
{{Alison}} s


Quote:
1. What do you all think of the Duggars?
I think they're neat. I grew up around the long hair/modest dressing/homeschooling/huge family kind of folks, and so they're not at all unusual to me.

Quote:
2. When the Duggars made their TV announcement that they are expecting baby #18, the expression on some of the 5-6 YO kids looked so sad- it just made me think that with that many kids, some of the littler ones probably don't want another baby- they want more time with their mommy. Is there ever a time you would think you shouldn't have more kids becuase of its effect on your LO's?
Nope. Not because I don't care about my little ones. But because not having more kids wouldn't be my solution. More children would be a blessing. But if I noticed my children resenting more babies, I would take that as a sign that I needed to rethink my life and possibly rearrange things so that all the children were getting what they needed. Not having seen the announcement, I can't say anything specifically about the Duggar kids.

Quote:
3. Is there anyone in your life who could convince you to stop having kids? I am thinking like a pastor/priest at your QF church- background for this question is that my aunt and uncle are QF, and my uncle has had severe anxiety problems related to supporting his large family, and their priest has told them to stop having kids but they won't (which I find distressing).
Nope. It is between dh and me and God and *nobody* else. Now, there might be situations where someone's advice would give us reason to consider seriously, but nobody has any real "say" in our decision.

Are you sure the anxiety is a direct result of the kids? That would certainly be a convenient issue for anxiety to manifest in, but if not kids, perhaps he would be anxious about other things.
post #48 of 384
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzyLee View Post
I am not QF, but have a question for you guys if you don't mind... It is kind of 3-fold.

1. What do you all think of the Duggars?
2. When the Duggars made their TV announcement that they are expecting baby #18, the expression on some of the 5-6 YO kids looked so sad- it just made me think that with that many kids, some of the littler ones probably don't want another baby- they want more time with their mommy. Is there ever a time you would think you shouldn't have more kids becuase of its effect on your LO's?
3. Is there anyone in your life who could convince you to stop having kids? I am thinking like a pastor/priest at your QF church- background for this question is that my aunt and uncle are QF, and my uncle has had severe anxiety problems related to supporting his large family, and their priest has told them to stop having kids but they won't (which I find distressing).

TIA if anyone minds answering my questions (I am not judging- just genuinely curious and trying to learn more/understand).
1) I don't know the Duggars personally, so I don't have an opinion about them. I have a very full life, and not a lot of time for speculating about others' families and motives. I wish them well, of course, and from what I have heard about them (assuming it's true) it appears that they have a lot to be thankful for--no debt, etc.

2) I did not see the announcement you are talking about (we don't have TV anymore) but I would gently suggest that it might be presumptuous to try to get inside the mind of a 5 or 6 year old based on a fleeting expression. Or even to assume that a downcast demeanor had anything to do with the announcement. Maybe it was sadness, maybe it wasn't. If it was, maybe it was about the baby, maybe not. I think anyone who has children of that age knows that their communication--esp. non-verbal--is still developing. And without having an opportuntity to talk with them and get to know them, I don't think that anyone has the insight to speculate accurately what they may have thought/felt. Who knows--if the announcement was a surprise, but the kids knew there was an announcement of some sort going to be made, maybe they had it built up in their minds as a trip to Disney World or something, and they were momentarily sad that their expectations weren't met. I know from my own children (my older 2 are 4 and 6) that pregnancy is a somewhat nebulous concept at that age. Until it gets really close and they can see the round tummy and the baby's kicks, it just isn't real to them.

As to the second part of your question, (the effect of babies on the other children) this is so speculative that it is hard to answer. You are starting from the assumption that a new baby could ever be a detriment to the children already in the family. I think you would have to prove this, and I think you would have a hard time proving it.....Sure, large families can be dysfunctional, but so can small families. Or childless couples. It would be difficult--I believe impossible--to show that the problems experienced by a family (or by one member of the family) are caused solely by the size of the family. But yes, if I were convinced as a loving mom that my children would suffer if I had another child, then of course I would weigh that very seriously! It would take a lot to convince me that "not having more children" was the only, or best, answer though.

3)This question requires 2 answers. First, I firmly feel that the issue of children is one that should be left to the parents and their God. Of course they are free to seek trusted counsel from wherever they wish, but ultimately, the decision is theirs, and the responsibility for that decision is theirs. And God is not going to hold a priest, or a pastor, or a loving friend or worried mother accountable for the decisions that this couple makes! They stand before Him on their own, so it is not, IMO, anyone's place to try to convince me to interfere with God's plan for my family. This is not something nonchalant, or something that people naively go into....we know society thinks we're nuts! We know that many of them are just watching and hoping that something will go wrong so they can say "told you so!" We know that when things go wrong (because things always go wrong, to some degree) everyone around us will immediately blame our family size and our convictions, whereas if a small family were dealt a similar blow, it would be "tragic, and such a shame, and nothing they could have done about it, and these things just happen!"

Sorta like how homebirthers know that everyone is waiting for something bad to happen so they can say "That never would have happened in the hospital!" and "Well, I hope now they've finally come to their senses!"

It's quite a tightrope act, LIVING your convictions. That in itself can bring a lot of anxiety....might be something to consider WRT your uncle. And it might be that your uncle is a man who is given to anxiety....maybe he'd be dealing with the same level of stress if he had only 1.6 kids, one dog and 2 cars. Or maybe the obvious lack of support for his convictions--from his priest (and presumably the church, since churches usually follow in the way the pastor leads) no less--is causing a bit of anxiety! Maybe everyone is so eager to treat what they see as the problem--his QF convictions--that they are totally missing the opportunity to be truly helpful, by getting at the heart of his anxiety.

Or maybe his anxiety itself has been projected on him by others, as you projected sadness onto the little Duggar kids. I dunno....I guess only your uncle can answer that question for himself, but it would be a question worth answering.

Second, you stated that your uncles' anxiety is related to being able to support his large family. This may be another case of missing the real issue because of focusing on the wrong part of the picture. If your uncle is concerned about supporting his family, then he needs help to learn how to better support his family! He needs help to learn how to reduce debt/increase income/make good investments, etc. Doing those things would go miles towards being able to confidently support his family, no matter how large it is! If you had a friend who was a bit overweight and she came to you depressed and anxious because she couldn't pay her bills, would you counsel her on how to manage her money more effectively, or would you tell her that if she'd just lose some weight, she wouldn't be so depressed? Do you see the point? If you told her to lose weight, you'd be addressing the wrong problem!

If your uncle went to his priest because he feels anxious about supporting his family, and the priest told him to sell a couple of his kids, would you have thought that was good advice? How many of your deeply-held convictions are you willing to change because someone--even someone who cares about you--tells you that it would be for the best? If you could see that it might be easier, in some ways, to abandon your convictions, would you be willing to do it?

And if not, then why would you try to convince someone else to abandon theirs?

Blessings,
post #49 of 384
I love you ladies! We aren't quiverfull but I find you all so fascinating for some reason. I read your thread often.

So is it ok if I ask a quick question? Are any of you NOT religious? Seems quiverfull gets tied up in being religion based. I understand why (the various scriptures and what not) but I imagine there are some qfers who are just qfers cause it makes sense and not because the bible says to be.

Ok, back to lurking.
post #50 of 384
I probably could not answer everything any more detailed than has already been said, so I will keep this brief.
Quote:
1. What do you all think of the Duggars?
I LOVE the Duggars. I "sorta" know them. Meaning I know several people that do know them personally. I always tell my children that I could pair them up with a Duggar and we could be one HUGE family! (Of course I am joking.)

I know there are certain things that I do not agree with in their lives, but then again, there are things in my life that I am sure they (or anyone else for that matter) do not agree with. That is a fact of life. But over all, we are a lot alike.

Quote:
2. Is there ever a time you would think you shouldn't have more kids becuase of its effect on your LO's?
I have to say, no. Because I don't believe the answer is to NOT have children. I think if the LO's having a problem, then I should address the problem. Them being sad for a new life in the house (if it was that at all) is a symptom of the problem. I would search for the root of the problem rather than treating the symptom.

And then to take that farther, I would never give up Gideon because Seth decided HE did not want another sibling. Each one is special and unique. Each on is a precious gift from my God that knows exactly who He wants me to care for and exactly how much I can handle. He also knows what my children, each in their own right, can handle, and He would never give anyone more than they could handle. And who am I to reject a gift from my Father based on the fleeting feelings of a very young child who's emotions rule their decision?

This new Babe that I carry is a living being. A unique treasure given straight from the heart of my God. I am to obey Him first, and I would never consider rejecting something, or someone, that He has sent to my care. And perhaps a young sibling may thing, "not another one", but I can assure you, after that "other one" is a "real live baby" and can be felt and touched, it is a whole other story. They all fall in love immediately and if you ask them if they would give the baby away, they would think you were nuts!

Quote:
3. Is there anyone in your life who could convince you to stop having kids?
The only "person" that would convince me to NOT have children would be God, Himself. (And my DH feels the same way.) No one in this world knows the mind of God. And no one knows me or DH enough to even begin to understand us. Even our parents just don't get it. Our Associate Pastor made the comment two weeks ago that perhaps when we stop and count our children we might decide to stop (his not so subtle way at saying we needed to stop). But who is he? Sure is is our Associate Pastor, second in command at our church, so to speak. And sure we follow their leadership and submit to their authority, but this is different. We are to FIRST listen to God.

So, unless the Pastor, or perhaps even the Associate Pastor, come up to us and tell us specifically that God told them to tell us to stop, well, I don't think so. And IF they ever did come to us and say, "God said", we would have to go before God and ask Him. But they had better be REALLY sure "God said" before saying He did. Because God does not take very kindly to someone lying about what He did or did not say. (And I totally trust my Pastors to speak the truth about what God said.)

And I don't think there is anyone else in my life that I would accept, "God said" from outside my Pastors. Especially not family members.

And FTR, my children are not, nor have they ever been, a burden to me. They are my treasures.
post #51 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherMother'n'Madre View Post
I love you ladies! We aren't quiverfull but I find you all so fascinating for some reason. I read your thread often.
Ditto!

post #52 of 384
Welcome, Amanda! And Alison, . I'm so sorry for your loss!

And I'm happy about the ladies who aren't QF but still love to read us! You're very welcome here!

As to the Duggars --

1)I disagree with them about some things, but as Jenny said, I'm sure they disagree with me about some things, too. I'm sad about the blanket-training (the practice of teaching a baby to stay on a blanket by hurting the baby every time s/he crawls off) -- but I don't see that as having anything to do with being QF.

The large families I know IRL tend to let their babies be pretty much free-range. It's so cool -- because I've let mine free-range, but have tended to be somewhat "hovery" (following them around as they free-ranged), and I've noticed that the children from the large families have learned about stair-safety (and other kinds of safety) way sooner than mine have.

2)Like the others, I don't see stopping God's blessings as the way to deal with a child's unhappiness. If my children aren't getting enough of me, then I need to figure out what else in my life needs to give, so that I can be there for each and every one of my 2 children.

3)Dh's and my fertility is between us and God. I can't imagine anyone else having the gall to tell us what we should do with God's precious gifts to us, our marriage, and the world.
post #53 of 384
Quote:
1. What do you all think of the Duggars?
Im not really sure. As far as the QF part- i think they are an awesome example of what a QF family can look like. They are a *normal* family. They arent weird looking or anything (like some uber-religious families can look to outsiders.) I think its great that they are getting the QF idea out there a little more. The family looks happy, they dont look toooooo busy, or poor, or like their kids aren't given attention or love (all things that critics like to comment on.) Now *i* dont know them, so i can only comment on what ive seen and read about them-which i really like. I have, however, heard some questionable things about them (mostly here on MDC) regarding their parenting style. She *appears* to be very a genuinely gentle mommy, but i have heard things that contradict that- such as the blanket training, and other pearl things. I have also heard that they are into the whole *we must always appear happy*... i think gothard? not sure- but thats just wierd to me... all

Quote:
2. Is there ever a time you would think you shouldn't have more kids becuase of its effect on your LO's?
I dont think so Like pp's have said, if one of my dc's is acting up or something- i know that there is an underlying issue. He might just need some more one on one time with mom... My kids arent really at that age yet- they are so young. If one of my kids were acting in a *not normal* way- i would try to see what it was about. If i end up with a huge family, i might not be able to spend 1 hr of one-on-one time with each a day, but would def. spend the time with them that they needed But i wouldnt stop having children .
Quote:
Is there anyone in your life who could convince you to stop having kids?
no. The bible is clear in this area, imo. so maybe if someone came out with clear proof that the bible is not real....lol...basically if my beliefs were ever truly proven to be wrong, then i suppose . but that wont happen-lol
post #54 of 384
I think the Duggars are interesting. I watch the little shows. But I'm not their biggest fans or anything. I'm not the modest dressing, long hair type. The fact that they have enough money to support all their kids and have a nice big house is inspiring though.

As for their kids looking sad, I didn't think they looked sad. I thought they looked surprised is all. They'll love it. They don't have her all to themselves now, and they wont lose more of her with one more baby. I think everyone thinks about how their kids will feel when they get pregnant again or decide to get pregnant again, but rarely ever does a kid really feel abandoned. I'm the oldest of my mom's kids, and I never wished my siblings didn't exist.

And no one could stop me from having kids except my husband. My mom didn't want us to start a family right away, and she's my neighbor. It didn't change anything. Kimari is our honeymoon baby. She's behind us to have #2 but I don't think she'll be very supportive if we have more than that. It doesn't make me want to stop. The only other way I would stop is if I continued to have non-viable babies despite medical intervention.

And to the religious question... My husband is not religious. He's willing to admit to a strong possibility that there is a god. And that's about it. But he trusts me, and I trust God. So I guess that works for us. Unfortunately, that hasn't gotten him to say "yes" to changing our plan. He figures that August is soon enough. ::sigh:: Oh well. He only has my best interests at heart.
post #55 of 384
Thanks for the answers ladies. As far as my uncle's anxiety, his wife has told us that is the situation. Of course I am not in their marriage so I don't know firsthand.
post #56 of 384
so how many children does one need/desire to have to have a full quiver?
post #57 of 384
Quote:
so how many children does one need/desire to have to have a full quiver?
My quiver's full when God stops giving me kids. That might be the three I have now, or 8, or 24...
post #58 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by janasmama View Post
so how many children does one need/desire to have to have a full quiver?
I believe that someone's quiver is full when God stops giving more children. For some couples, they may have no children, 1 child, or 18 children.
I think the key is just to be open to God's plan for my life. If he decides to only give us 2 children or 8 children, then so be it. If he decides to space our children 4 years apart or 10 months apart, so be it. If he lays it on our hearts to adopt, then we need to follow through and do so. Just my thoughts on qf
post #59 of 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzyLee View Post
- background for this question is that my aunt and uncle are QF, and my uncle has had severe anxiety problems related to supporting his large family, and their priest has told them to stop having kids but they won't (which I find distressing).
What do you find distressing? That your aunt and uncle are continuing to trust God with their fertility, in spite of your uncle being anxious about finances -- or that they're not obeying their priest?

From my readings of the Bible, I find that many who branched out and obeyed the voice of God had some anxiety problems from time-to-time.

Heck, Job's wife advised him to look at his situation, and curse God and die.

And I'm sure glad that Moses moved beyond his anxiety problems, rather than succumbing and staying in his comfort-zone.
post #60 of 384
^ That's a good response, thanks. I admire you women and have a friend who has a quiverful lifestyle. I'm going to tell her about you all here...I think you would enjoy it here.
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