Voluntarily giving up custody? - Page 5

[Naomi]

I would be equally appalled by a father who had primary custody and an alcoholic ex who decided that he would move 1000 miles away and leave his four-year-old child with a parent who'd gotten a DUI with the child in the car only a few months earlier.

I do think there are situations where it is reasonable for a mother to relinquish primary custody to the child's father. Those situations involve a stable, responsible ex, not an alcoholic who has maybe started getting his act together in the last month and a half.

[Blueena]

Reading all of this, first of all, I would never leave my 5 year old, they need their mommy.

Then I read about the double standards for men and women, blah blah and you know what? I don't care if there is a double standard, I am a better mommy than my husband could ever be and he's a great daddy. I cut their nails, I wipe their boogers, I clean their shoes each night, I obsess about their food intake, I do all these things that I am frankly better equipped for and you know what? I love it, its my job, I am the mommy, period, there are higher expectations from society, but there are higher expectations from myself and I am proud and happy to try to reach them. That is why CHILDREN NEED THEIR MOMMIES!! Don't move to Alaska, compromise, do what's best for him, he's only 5 once.

Should I be looked upon worse if I abandon my child versus my hubby? Um, yeah, I gave birth to them, I nursed them, I am the mommy and God gave me the job, he didn't give it the man.

(but I would look badly upon a man who left his child too, I am just saying that I am okay with the double standard, because I understand why its there)

[sunkissedmumma67]

I strongly believe that your son belongs with you at least half of the time. You said his dad had issues, i don't know what they are but 2 months isn't enough time to say he's really changed! I know a women who when her son was 3 he said he wanted to go live with his dad and the mom gave up custody of him and shortly after on a visitation he told her how bad things were with dad and he wanted to come back to her. She then asked for him back and the husband refused, she fought for custody, but lost! Once you give up custody of your child, it's not easy to get it back!

[senmom]

Originally Posted by cycle

I agree with what you said ThreeBeans, what forum did you think you were in?

I think she was being a smart ass. Obviously she is having some feelings.

[sunkissedmumma67]

Oh and if dad's an alcoholic or drug user or abusive, your son should not be with him at all, except possible supervised visitation. It's called RELAPSE!

[yaM yaM]

CJ, you rock.

[PlayaMama]

i'm not sure i have much to add but my cousin's mom left her with my uncle when she was four. in my experience, my cousin is a fine person and she doesn't seem to have many issues about it.

i think it worked out because my aunt was unstable and not a very good parent and my uncle was a very responsible and caring parent. it doesn't seem like this quite applies to your situation because your ex doesn't seem too responsible.

really, who is the better parent? who would be the best person to take care of your child? it's your life, it's your choice. but it's about someone who is dependent on you to make the right choice.

[LynnS6]

I know two families where the mother has given up primary custody. In both cases it was because the mother was unable to care for the children - not unwilling, not off to pursue another career, but unable. Let's just say that the effects that has had on these children have been life-long and irrevocable. This despite the fact that the fathers were good, stable men who did their best to provide for their children.

Originally Posted by reina28

would pry have to go through counseling to get over the guilt about it

How about counseling NOW before you make a decision that WILL affect him for life?

You need to understand more about alcoholism. Your son needs help negotiating two households that have undergone a LOT of change recently. You need help understanding what your son is goign through when he says he wants to live with his dad, even though his dad isn't a great dad and "there isn't much affection there."

You need help deciding how to balance what's best for you and what's best for your son long term. I know parents who have made decisions about where their children live that I would not make, but that I understand (e.g., sending children to live with grandparents for 3-4 months while they finish a degree), but nothing you've posted has made me think this is something I'd either understand or do. There's a lot of alcoholism in my family, and I would be very, very uncomfortable leaving a young child with a person (mother or father) who hasn't been sober and in some sort of program for at least a year.

If you and your son have not received counseling, now is the time for EACH of you to have some individual counseling. You may end up making the decision to not leave your son. You may end up making the decision that he's better off with your ex right now. But you'll be making it from an informed position, with someone who isn't as judgmental as the group on this board, and who can hopefully help you understand the short and long-term consequences of your actions on you and your relationship with your son, and your son's relationship with his dad.

[mama41]

Originally Posted by thismama

No, people would not. Ive seen the exact discussion (not in this forum actually, and the single mamas were pretty unified in saying a dad moving away from his kid is not cool), but a LOT of people defended the idea of the dad moving away and acted like those of us who said it was not okay were bitter or something.

Definitely a double standard.

I agree. But apparently cj has the wrong crowd. I don't know that you'd find too many women here, on this board, who'd say that it's just dandy for daddy to go follow his bliss and his paycheck, but that mama should stay. I think people here have been saying quite clearly that the children need both parents, and that means seeing them often.

The people I hear supporting the moves tend to be wives of divorced non-custodial men and childless adults, especially young childless adults. Where I live, btw, family is viewed as absolutely central to life, and I think that even men would mistrust other men who'd moved far from their kids in order to take a more interesting, fulfilling, or lucrative job, or because their wives had gotten jobs here. If your commitment to something so central is so weak, why should you be reliable at work?

My biggest fear, custodywise, is that XH will find himself a woman who throws herself into "restoring his relationship" with dd by shooting for more custody, spends a couple of years solidifying those bonds with dd, and then decides that life would be better in another part of the country.

[Tanibani]

Originally Posted by reina28

I also think ds's dad would fight to the death to keep him from leaving.

As he should. I feel sorry for your son and his father. Ex-wives usually have primary custody and if she decides to re-marry and move out the state, she can. That fractures the relationship between the father and son. It puts an unfair burden on the father who is * trying * to still be in his son's life. (Equally horrible, is a father who ditches ex-wife and kids, starts a new relationship with a new woman and completely abandon's his child. Also horrible and wrong.)

If I were to ever divorce, my # 1 responsibility would be to my children. That means I would not marry a man (even if he were the man of my dreams) if there was even the slightest chance I'd move out of state, or he could not follow me if ex-DH had to leave the state. My worse case scenario... I marry someone... He says "I'll always follow you," then we have a baby, then he says "we need to move." What do I do? Leave my two firstborns with dad??? (Have a 2nd divorce?!?!!) Leave the state and start a new home with my new husband and baby? Is that right?!?!?! is that fair to my own first two children?!?!?! Then THEY have to get on a plane and visit me or vice versa (hell no). How would they feel about me in adulthood??!?!

And yes it's not fair. It would suck to be "stuck" in one place for 18 years... but my children are worth it. Their psychological well-being is worth more to me that "the man/job/state of my dreams."

DH is divorced. His first wife left him, left the country, went back to Mexico. There was no way he could live where she was and support himself. (I can't begin to tell you the anguish of not seeing his son, being kept from him, over the early years has my husband.) She is mentally unstable and their son (now 17) is dealing with all sorts of issues. DH visited once a month (best he could) and guess what, that wasn't enough. Not nearly.

How is the father going to see his son? Expensive trips that he probably can't afford. Most people can't.

My father died when I was 4. It left a big hole in my heart. Children NEED their fathers (assuming they are not completely messed up.) Mom never re-married. It's nice that your son has "two" fathers. That could be a positive if your new husband is an involved, loving partner. That's cool, but don't take away his bio-dad.

My first boyfriend was 23 at the time... His mom divorced their father when he and his sister were 5 & 4. She remarried twice. (2nd marriage ended with the love of her life being killed. She had a baby boy with this man.) Third marriage (more out of need than love IMO) she moved to Ca from NY with a very wealthy businessman. He is so cheap, she uses up all her savings ($100K) to fix up "their home". The kids lived with her for awhile. They eventually hated her (3rd husband cheated on her, they divorce and she walks away with nothing, causing her to have a nervous breakdown and leave - I really felt bad for her) and resented her for the choices she made with her life. It was sad.... it was just so sad how her kids hated her. At the time I didn't get it... seeing it from the point of a child who is sees his mother as choosing OTHER men/families (instead of them) then I see where the anger comes from. It's just so tragic. There have been studies on divorced children... and it's usually women who take the heat... must be a reason. Do some research on this topic, OK? You are not the first to be faced with this.... learn from other people's mistakes.

Know that I'm not judging you or trying to berate you. I'm just trying to reason with you.

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by ThreeBeans

A five year old doesn't get to decide where he wants to live. There is no way a five year old has the intellectual maturity to understand that his mother is abandoning him. That he can't change his mind in three days.


OP, I need to stay within the bounds of the UA here. I will say that whatever you choose to do, your actions today will have a PROFOUND effect on the rest of your child's life, for better or for worse. Not for the next month. Not for the next year. For the rest of his life. It will impact how he views parent child relationships, man woman relationships, friendships, and romances. It will color his perceptions of intimacy and human decency. Forever.


Keep in mind that when you have a child, that for the forseeable future, it is your duty to put that child's needs before your own.

I will also add that what I have said here applies to both mothers and fathers.

Sorry but I do have to disagree with this one. I will begin with the disclaimer that my situation was very different from the one that reina is describing; however,....
When my son was 3 1/2 his father and I decided that it would be best at that time to move to a different city( same state). His dad and I were not together, maintaining separate residences, separate incomes, etc.... It just so happened that I got a job first. Being that I had barely found a place to live and had not found decent child care by the time I needed to begin my new job, his dad and I decided to leave DS 2 with him in a different city than me. He would be in his dad's house which he was well familiar with, and at the same daycare he had been at for 2 1/2 years. It was gut wrenching and I only got to see him 2-3 times in a 3 month period, but that is what we both thought was best. By the time DS 2 and his dad moved down to where we were, DS 2 was very acclimated to living with his father. He had a load of seperation anxiety when he came to my home and overall was very unhappy and made it quite clear that he would prefer to be with his dad. So in spite of DS 2 being in the same town as I was, his dad became the PCP for over a year after we all transitioned to the same town. It was very difficult for me, but DS 2 made his feelings known and there was no reason why I should have forced him to live with me. So despite his young age, my DS 2 did get to choose where he lived, in a round about way, and it worked for him ( and for us). I do not think I have caused permanent psychological harm in allowing him to make his needs and feelings known about not wanting to have any more alterations to his living environment at that time.
Now, as I said before, my situation was not the same as Reina's, and I am concerned about the alcohol usage, as are a lot of other posters. In addition you are looking at an extended time apart, which would affect the bond that you have with your son. I am curious as to how long your residence in alaska would last. Would your son living with his dad be a temporary thing until you got settled? or would it be indefinite? Could you afford to fly to the mainland often to see your son? What kind of contact would you be able to have with him if you could not afford plane tickets? I think there are a lot of factors here that you have to take into account. only you can answer these questions and the answers really are none of our business. I wish you peace and clarity while you make these choices.

[mama41]

Originally Posted by Tanibani

My worse case scenario... I marry someone... He says "I'll always follow you," then we have a baby, then he says "we need to move." What do I do? Leave my two firstborns with dad??? (Have a 2nd divorce?!?!!) Leave the state and start a new home with my new husband and baby? Is that right?!?!?! is that fair to my own first two children?!?!?! Then THEY have to get on a plane and visit me or vice versa (hell no). How would they feel about me in adulthood??!?!

Then it's plain what you do. It's maybe not what you want, but it's plain. You say, OK, I have two kids, and that's it. I'm done having kids, at least until these ones are grown.

I have a similar not-nice answer staring me in the face. I don't want another child. I could not abort a healthy sib to dd. The answer? Get snipped, or don't have sex. I may eventually decide I want another child, so, for now, the answer is "don't have sex". So it goes.

[babygrace]

there is a time and a place for all things, and arguments about gender equality issues do not belong in a discussion about decisions that will have profound and fundamental ramifications in a child's life. so, let's keep this real.

OP, all i have to say is that i agree with the majority of the posters who feel that you shouldn't leave your son behind.

[cjuniverse]

Arguments about gender equality absolutely have a place in this discussion. Absolutely. It has already been well established that many posters would treat this question differently if the poster were a man, hell one poster even admitted straight up that she thought the double standard was a good idea!

Nobody wants to talk about it, though, because it makes us all uncomfortable and puts us all (myself included, mother of a son who does NOT live with me at the moment, though I do see him almost every day...family issues I will elaborate on if asked...according to some posting here, I'm a freakin' monster because of this! That is so unbelievably untrue, and pure hatred based on gender role double standard CRAP).

I can not stand to see people hating on this woman (and by extension, those in similar situations) for doing nothing more than proposing something challenging, different, unconventional. Asking a question. Laying out a scenario and asking for advice. Why the hatred? Where does it come from? Why the anger and rage and insults and talk of being a bad parent and person for just considering it? Because she is a woman, that's why! Because women aren't 'supposed' to consider these things. That, this is *wholly* gender based. Completely. It is not 'irrelevant', and the more you insist it is, the more I insist you don't want to deal with the root of the issue.

I did say in my original post that based on the father's behavior, she should carefully consider this move. And I think she should. But, the thing is, only she knows the specifics of her situation best. Her son best. Her ex best. Her self best. Therefore, it is her call. Not ours. Shaming her, hurting her, insulting her doesn't help her. It might help some here feel self-righteous and better about themselves, but it doesn't help her.

I trust her to make the decision that is right for her family, as I would for any rational, non-abusive adult (and I find her actions to be well within the parameters of both).

Sometimes people's identities can be so caught up in their parenting/style of parenting that even the thought of someone doing things differently can be very upsetting, even threatening. Same goes with everything else in life. But, that is no excuse to crap all over this woman's character and call her a bad person. You can disagree with her, or tell her it's not the decision you would make, or ask her about the specifics, sure. But insult her? Call her names and try to make her feel like she doesn't love her son? Like she isn't as good a parent/person as you/others are? That isn't about her or her son. It's about you.

OP, I stand in support of whatever decision you make, and your right to make it without people standing in judgment of you.

Oh, and this isn't about lowering parenting standards, either. It's about women being treated as human beings instead of floor rugs, and about affording them the same respect and space to find themselves and live their lives as we currently only do for men. I'm standing up for her, and all of us as women in this regard.

And obviously, not all of us believe in a god or any higher power that somehow necessitates we behave and be treated like lower beings because we can bear children. THAT I find pretty freakin' irrelevant.

[mama41]

cj,

If you'd read posts in other sections of this forum regarding fathers moving, you would know that you're wildly off-base in your generalization. I don't doubt that you get cast as a monster for not having your son with you daily. But I'm saying that the gender bias you're describing is not the motivating factor in what you're hearing through most of this discussion.

It seems to me that most of us here believe quite earnestly that both parents' presence is vital unless a parent is dangerous, and even then we go to absolutely ridiculous extremes to preserve the relationships. Do we accept that the fathers often move away? Yes, with despair and a burning anger and resentment and hurt for the children that's similar to what stepmothers often feel when their stepkids' mothers move. We accept it because we have no choice.

I don't think you should confuse this subgroup with the culture at large. I can assure you that I'd be very happy to rip a daddy a new one for proposing a lark like this one, with or without a new wife, with or without an alcoholic ex-wife.

I've gotten into many arguments about feminism on this issue, too. I'm as plain a second-wave, Hillary-voting feminist as you'll meet, and feminism has absolutely shaped my life and made it rich. However, much to my chagrin, I found (after having a child) that much of feminism was built around childlessness. Which is why childless women have near-parity in income, but mothers lag far behind. In the end, the children don't take care of themselves or raise themselves. If the daddy can't or won't do it, guess what? You're it. Why does it happen to so many women? Because fewer women are willing to walk away. Why's that? I genuinely doubt it's to do with social conditioning. I suspect it's because we care more than the men do about the children's survival, and we pay more attention to it.

You could tack plenty of sociobiological arguments to that, but in the end, you look at the number of women with serious careers who shoot themselves in the foot in order to take care of the children. These are women who are perfectly capable of asserting themselves and negotiating on-par salaries, women who work in traditionally male careers, and in many ways open themselves up to every kind of vicious gender-based name-calling. And yet, in the end, they do most or all of the work of childrearing. Why? I don't think it's because they're afraid of what people will think.

[mamamoo]

Originally Posted by blessed

I don't think we should adopt lower parenting standards for women just because men are often lousy at it, and we have come not to expect much out of them.

Originally Posted by chrissy

well, i, for one, would tell a father the exact same thing as i did this mother: don't do it.

i don't care if you're a man or a woman, when you are a parent to a child, your number one responsibility is to them.

for pete's sake, this community supports ATTACHMENT PARENTING. how on earth is that compatible with giving up custody of your 5 year old so you can move to a cool new locale with your new man- or woman?

:

And for the record, I rip my X a new one all the time about abandoning his kids(though he swears he didn't), and starting a new, better, simple life. They feel the sting, and I pick up the pieces. It sucks all around, and it doubly sucks that men are allowed to "get away" with it in this society. I woudl have the same exact response to the OP if she were a man though, for sure.

[trinity6232000]

When I first responded to this thread I feel I was kind, so I don't believe that we're all attacking this Mama. I feel like we're giving her a lot to think about. I don't think she is a bad person, a bad mama, or bad in any way. But I do feel pretty strongly that she needs to think harder about some consequences that could effect her son if she moves.

I said could, because the truth is maybe she would move, and there would be little ill effect to her child. But would I want to take that chance in my own child's life, no I couldn't.

For me this isn't a Mom issue, it isn't a woman issue in any way. It's a parenting issue, and I feel the same exact way when it comes to fathers. If you have a child, then I feel you need to live near, and have consistent contact with that child. That is my opinion for all parents, men or women.


True we all don't know when we will leave this earth, so maybe we want to strive for our dreams incase we don't have that time later. But I doubt that the majority of us will say regret our career choice on our death beds, but could regret not having more time with our children.

My sister is 45 and starting her life all over again after a divorce. My Dad is 70, and is getting married later this year. They're lives aren't over. Heck I'll only be 44 when my dd graduates high school. I think I'll get out there and travel to my hearts content when she starts college.

But until then, I'm staying here, with dd, and in our familiar surroundings because in our case that is what is best for her.

[mamameg]

I think the gender differences and all that come with them (stereotypes, double standards, different expectations, etc) do have something to do with this conversation.

But if we are going to examine them, we have to step away from our "women as victims" and stop acting like we are the only ones who are treated unfairly.

How many commercials have you seen on tv where dad is portrayed as a dolt who is lucky enough to have _______ product, because when wifey is gone, he is inept without convenience products?

How many sitcoms have we seen where mom is holding the family together while dad sits on the couch and does nothing except try to stave his mother's sharp tongue off of his wife?

How many threads here at MDC have you read where mom completely disregards dad's opinions about child rearing and in the end, mom is encouraged to do what she wants, dad be damned.

When my DH was fighting to keep his exwife from moving out of state with their child, he was told by the judge the burden of proof was on him and that he had to "prove his absence will be detrimental to the child." The assumption is the father is not of value and my DH had to prove his value. In court. He tried, but ultimately, he was told the boy would be fine without him. This was said to the very involved father of a special needs, biracial boy. The child was in his custody 40% of the time. He attended all doctors appointments, school meetings (IEPs), and always paid his 4 figure monthly child support on time. Yet his value was disposable in the eyes of the court.

All in all, men are not treated as valuable parents in the American culture. They are viewed as providers. As long as they are paying child support, we can get along without them. Right?

I know women suffer discrimination and often bear the brunt of the responsibility a lot of the time. But we are also the recipients of the accolades most of the time, too. Men don't get that and I personally can see how and why some men might feel like it's not that big of a deal if they take off. The only time anyone talks about the important of fathers is in the academic sense in regards to studies about crimes stats and teen failures.

If we want men to act as responsible, valuable parents, women need to start treating them as such. I am not blaming women for men's shortcomings. But we all play a role in our society and if one sect of our society is undervalued, we all have a responsibility to work to improve that situation.

[ThreeBeans]

Originally Posted by senmom

I think she was being a smart ass. Obviously she is having some feelings.

I was not being a smart ass. I followed the link from the main page, thinking it was in parenting issues. I didn't realize I was in single parenting till after I posted.

[PassionateWriter]

Its really hard being away from your child...regardless of the distance.

I can only advise you to look into yourself and imagine the road 20 years from now...where you have lived your dream life in Alaska, teaching other mother's children...and missing out on your own child's childhood...how will you feel about that?

Moving an hour away from an ex is hard....but at least its doable..what you are proposing is impossible to maintain close relationships b/w child and parent IMHO.