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A "Misha" Case Update - Page 3

post #41 of 62
Stern can KMA.
post #42 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
Stern can KMA.
Whats KMA?
post #43 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
Stern can KMA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
Whats KMA?
I would guess "Kiss My A__!"...



but I could be wrong.
post #44 of 62
Thread Starter 
Ok so I have the writ. I want to give those who are interested the opportunity to read it but I am trying to figure out how to best do that. I suppose those who are interested can PM me and I can email it to you. You need to be sure you can handle a 6mb attachment. It's 155 pages long but most of that seems to be attachments of previous court documents.
post #45 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhispers View Post
Ok so I have the writ. I want to give those who are interested the opportunity to read it but I am trying to figure out how to best do that. I suppose those who are interested can PM me and I can email it to you. You need to be sure you can handle a 6mb attachment. It's 155 pages long but most of that seems to be attachments of previous court documents.
Can you publish it at one of the many free file hosting services?
post #46 of 62
Thread Starter 
Done:

http://www.adrive.com/public/205fcfc...f1ce8ae56.html

ETA: I haven't had time to read the thing yet and may not be able to until the weekend but curiously he is basing this not only on Amendment 1 but also 14 (due process) I am not quite sure how that fits in guess I'll just have to read and see.
post #47 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by armychicmkm View Post
Sorry, I gotta disagree. This case is by far worse than any parent circumcising a baby. So many parents circumcise their baby boys because that is all they know. Maybe "ignorance is no excuse" but I simply cannot lump in parents who are good people doing what they think is right and trying to what best for their child with a man who is being intentionally cruel to his 13 old son.
I circed my son as a newborn almost 13 years ago because I thought that was what always had to be done. I thought it was best for him, but in reality, I was naive, barely 19 years old and didn't do enough of my own research and had everyone else giving me bad information. I'd hate to be lumped together with guyg like this guy! There's such a difference between the two!

Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective;11161569I
f this was a 13 year old girl facing the need for an abortion, courts have at least given respect to her views, and her rights. Yet in this case, this boy, facing many of the same issues, and at the same age, is still being legally shoved around like he is just owned property.
Good point, but I was gonna word it more cosmetically- can you imagine if this boy was a girl and her Father was trying to force her to have a boob job or something? He would be thrown out of court and lose custody and probably even visitation with the child, so why is it okay for this guy with his son?
post #48 of 62
Here is the medical "opinion" Bolt sites in favor of circ:

Quote:
Among the eight affidavits Father submitted
to the Trial Court was one from Michael Ellen, M.D.,
a board-certified urologist, licensed to practice
medicine in the state of Washington. He is also a
member of the Northwest Urology Society and of the
American Society of Clinical Urologists. He was then
currently Chairman of the Division of Surgery at
Providence St. Peter Hospital [in Olympia,
Washington]. Dr. Ellen found that:
A. Circumcision would be a safe procedure for the
child, with no significant risk of complications;
B. Circumcision results in greatly reduced risks
of penile cancer and of some infections
(such as
ballanitis);
C. There will be no health detriment to the child from a circumcision.
D. There is evidence of glanular adhesions which
should have disappeared by age three. This alone is
cause for recommendation for the procedure.

E. He envisions performing the procedure under
local anesthetic.
F. The procedure itself will be painless (with some
minor discomfort for about three days afterward but
not enough to preclude him from going to school or
participating in most normal daily activities).
Affidavit of Michael Ellen, M.D. (June 7, 2004).
Two other physicians, Len Albert, M.D., and
Larry Perrin, M.D. (both licensed to practice
medicine in the state of Washington) submitted
affidavits concluding that:
A. Numbing agents are used to insure that the
procedure itself is without pain. There may be some
minor discomfort for about three days after the
procedure---but nothing that would preclude M
attending school or carrying on most of his normal
daily activities. After that, they anticipate no
discomfort at all.
B. The procedure does not require hospitalization
or general anesthesia. It can easily be done in Dr.
Michael Ellen's office.
C. Medically, there is no 'downside' to being
circumcised.
Apart from the religious reason for the
procedure, there are also significant medical reasons
favoring the operation as well
. Specifically, (a) the
rate of penile cancer in circumcised males is many
times lower than it is in uncircumcised males, and
(b) the rate of certain infections (such as ballinitis) is
much lower in circumcised males than it is in
uncircumcised males. Affidavit of Len Albert, M.D.
at 1 and 3 (June 3, 2004); Affidavit of Larry Perrin, M.D. at 2-3 (June 4, 2004).
I have highlighted some inaccuracies. The fine touch study, documenting that circumcised penises are less sensitive, has been ignored. Psychological damage is not addressed. The mother's initial request for custody asserts that non-consented circumcision of a 9 year old is physical and sexual abuse.

Also, I looked up the age where a minor can be emancipated in Oregon - he can be freed from his father at 16 assuming he has a job and meets some other requirements.

On thing for Oregon residents to consider - it might be possible pass legislation requiring a minors consent for circumcision if the minor is over the age of 12. Oregon is a pretty liberal state, right? That legislation (if passed) could be challenged, but it would take time to do that.
post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleeplessMommy View Post
On thing for Oregon residents to consider - it might be possible pass legislation requiring a minors consent for circumcision if the minor is over the age of 12. Oregon is a pretty liberal state, right? That legislation (if passed) could be challenged, but it would take time to do that.
Wait, has such legislation been written up yet? Are you suggesting Oregon residents to do it? Could they? Why is now a more likely time for that to work?
post #50 of 62
And that, Perspective, is the crux of the whole battle, and why it has played out this far instead of being thrown out at the first hearing as being ridiculous, cruel and sexual abuse.

What Michael Stern and his merry bunch have realised is that if a minor, in this case a 12 year old boy, has rights to a choice over cosmetic alterations to his body, then so do infants and a judgement against the father will impact deeply on a parent's right to cut up a baby just because they want to. Or alternatively, if parents have the right to forceably alter an infant, because he is a minor, then he is a minor all the way up to the age of self determination - 18? and they can do what they like to him up to that age.
post #51 of 62
I haven't even read all the replies, sorry. But should it not at least require BOTH parent's signature on a consent form to have the child circumcised? The mother was against it, was she not?

Anyway, this is the father's conversion to Judaism that has sprung this, right? I thought a boy was only considered Jewish if his MOTHER was Jewish, not the father?
post #52 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire and Boys View Post
I haven't even read all the replies, sorry. But should it not at least require BOTH parent's signature on a consent form to have the child circumcised? The mother was against it, was she not?

Anyway, this is the father's conversion to Judaism that has sprung this, right? I thought a boy was only considered Jewish if his MOTHER was Jewish, not the father?
They are divorced and the father has fully custody of the boy. Your second point is ostensibly correct.
post #53 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
Wait, has such legislation been written up yet? Are you suggesting Oregon residents to do it? Could they? Why is now a more likely time for that to work?
It has not been written up, to my knowledge. If there is anyone in Oregon who wants to work on this, we see what the effort would be. The lobbying required would be a full time job for several people. A ballot initiative would also be a possibility if anyone thinks 51% of voters are against un-consented circ in adolescents.
post #54 of 62
Does anyone know if there has been news about this father's appeal to the Supreme Court, or any activity regarding this being sent back to the lower court?
post #55 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensemble View Post
Does anyone know if there has been news about this father's appeal to the Supreme Court, or any activity regarding this being sent back to the lower court?
Right now it's a waiting game. The petition for the writ of certiorari has been placed on the calendar to be heard. This is just a hearing as to whether or not the writ will be granted.

Even if the writ is granted, there is no reason to believe it will be heard by the full court. It can still be thrown back or just plain old rejected without any opinion or reason.

It is not scheduled for conference until September 29, 2008. The conference is when the justices look at briefs of all the writs that have been submitted and decide if there is any reason to bring the case before the other justices (as I understand it). If 4 of them decide to grant the writ, a majority still have to decide whether or not to hear the case, which means more briefs and more filing.

At the rate the court moves, it could actually be quite awhile until anything is heard.

The docket is kept pretty up to date. Here's a link to it.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/07-1348.htm

Here is my disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. I just find the law and how the USSC works fascinating.
And I read too much.
post #56 of 62
Thanks, Angi!
post #57 of 62
I can't believe it's legal to subject a thirteen year old to unnecessary surgery against his will. And I am disappointed with the synagogue that they would accept and endorse a forced conversion from a teen-ager old enough to think for himself, and believe or not believe.
post #58 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmeyrick View Post
I can't believe it's legal to subject a thirteen year old to unnecessary surgery against his will. And I am disappointed with the synagogue that they would accept and endorse a forced conversion from a teen-ager old enough to think for himself, and believe or not believe.
I think I mentioned this before but it bares repeating. The lower court (OSC) gave the father an option that he hasn't exhausted. That option was to have the case essentially re examined in the lower court taking the boys opinion into account. Considering that this route would have been far cheaper, and taken less time, than going to SCOUS it leave little doubt what the boys opinion is on this matter.
post #59 of 62
This case is interesting for many reasons. The two that catch my eye are that 1. Obviously it is wrong to do this on an unconsenting 13 year old. To admit that is to admit that it is wrong to do it on unconsenting infants.
2. One thing circumcision has historically been used for is as a mark of enslavement. You own someone, therefore you get to do what you want with his or her body. You see the dad in this case trying exert his ownership and control over the boy, and to get even with the mother. I hope the case drags on until the boy can be emancipated or becomes an adult.
post #60 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhispers View Post
Actually, if this grinds its way to the bitter end the kid could be at least 15 before it is resolved. And the older he gets the harder it would be to believe the court would allow him to be forcibly circumcised. But this is the US so who knows.

ETA: For perspective, IFIRC, he was only 8 or 9 when this started.
I haven't read through the rest of this thread beyond the above quote.
I have to stop here.
The only thing I can think about is how that poor child has been mentally tortured already for years (assuming he is not accepting of the circumcision..which I cannot imagine a 8-15 year old would ever be...but I could be wrong).

Just imagining a child being fearful of having part of his genitalia removed for YEARS...day in and day out...

now THAT is abuse. THAT is emotional and psychological child ABUSE.

Oh, this case makes me so sad and angry on so many levels....
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