Pros and Cons to Circumcising - Page 2

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by armychicmkm

My (future) son's rights are what has me steering away from circ. more than anything else. I'm a farily big believer in making you own decisions and that is a pretty big decision to take away. And DH is making me include "Not to mention I already said no."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...09/2113665.htm

Yep rights (Search for Paul Mason).

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Here are many reasons not to circ and it also addresses the many myths as to why circ is needed.


Reasons to leave your son intact:

- The owner of the penis should be the one to decide what to do with it.

-The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

- The movable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

- The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

- An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto it shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

- The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or “glans” of the penis for the life of its owner. The glans or the head of the penis was never meant to be a external organ it should be inside the foreskin to protect it and keep it sensitive.

-80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America). Circumcision does NOT prevent AIDS wearing a condom does.

-Male circumcision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

- When people from non circumcising countries hear that we in the USA still do it they are usually shocked, and often don't believe it to be true.

- Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, you just wash it like a finger, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child. The age it becomes retractable varies greatly normal range is childhood to adulthood.

- The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.

- When the foreskin is removed 30-50% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC depending on the Dr. and the type of circumcision that is done.

-The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

-Circumcisions was originally introduced in the country in the late 1800s to prevent masturbation. It has since been touted as the cure for all sorts of ailments - all of which have been scientifically disprovable. Including but not limited to it being a cure for baldness, mental illness, cancer etc. Etc.

The History of Circumcision
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...tpage&Itemid=1

Warning disturbing pictures "The medicalization of circumcision"
http://www.icgi.org/medicalization_o...ion.htm#Page_1

A Short History of Circumcision in the U.S.A (this one is really scary when you read it)
http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/shorthis.htm

The Ritual of Circumcision
http://www.noharmm.org/paige.htm

-Cutting off the foreskin cuts off the most sensitive, erotic, pleasurable part of a man’s body. The foreskin plays a very important role in sex. Men who were circumcised later in life compare circed sex/intact sex to someone who is color blind they can see just fine but the full "color" is missing.

-Circumcision is almost NEVER medically necessary. The only true medical reasons for circ are, frostbite, gangrene and cancer (all of those would be extremely rare) The incidence for necessary medical circumcisions is less that 0.05%. Circumcision for phimosis should only be done as a last resort. After trying stretching, steroid cream and a dorsel slit.

-No medical organization anywhere recommends routine infant circ.
Here is a list of statements from several countries including the USA and Canada.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

- Circumcision is EXTREMELY painful, even if anesthetic is administered. Studies have proved that babies feel pain even more acutely than an adult would. It is a very great breech of trust for a baby to be taken from his parents and cut. It is very violating. Long after any anesthesia that might(most only get a sugar dipped rag or paci to suck on) have been used wears off there is still a raw open wound sitting in urine and feces with no pain relief.

-The intact penis, if left alone, has no greater risk for UTI's, STD's, Penile Cancer, HIV, causing Cervical Cancer in women.

UTI myth http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php

In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.

FORESKINS: Seek Elsewhere for Infants' Urinary Tract Infections
http://www.cirp.org/news/1997.12.22_PhysiciansWeekly/


UTI Neonatal circumcision revisited
http://www.cps.ca/english/statements...ION%20OF%20UTI

The incidence of Geniturinary abnormalities in circumcised and uncircumcised presenting with an initial urinary tract infection by 6 months of age
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/mueller/
- Girls have a much greater risk of UTIs, yet we don't cut off parts of their genitals to prevent them.
Cancer Society:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
Boczko et al . found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes14: "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."

Preston established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch did the same in Australia.

Circumcision and AIDS/HIV
http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/ http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html

Comparison of North America to other non-circ countries HIV status
http://www.avert.org/america.htm
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
- The times the intact penis has trouble are when it is forcefully retracted before it is ready. The penis should only be retracted by its owner, when he’s ready. It is normal to not be retractable until after puberty. It is not a problem.

- Circumcision is SURGERY and as such poses significant risks of infection to the wound.
Possible complications include but are not limited to:

• Infections;
• Botched circumcisions that have to be redone;
• To tight circumcisions that cause extreme pain with erection;
• Hair on the shaft;
• Loss of sensation in the glans (head), it becomes keratinized (hardened) without the foreskin; (this one always happens)
• Amputation of the part or all of the penis;
• Ruptured stomach, bladder, and or intestines from crying so hard;
• Skin bridges(very common)
• Adhesions(very common)
• Scaring on the penis shaft(very common)
• Meatal Stenosis http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/persad/ around 10-15% of circs result in this complication if not more.
• DEATH (I have read that as many as 5 infants die every year from circ complications)

and much much more.
It is estemated that between 10-15% of all males will have at least 1 or more of the complications listed above. But none of these side effects are present when leaving a boy intact.

Links of pictures Warning graphic pictures
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched1sb.html
http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm

- There are NO medical benefits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

- Circumcision is big business in the US. Several billions of dollars every year. Doctors are very invested in keeping the circumcision myths alive.

- A single doctor can make $20,000 a year doing circumcisions.

- A little known fact is that foreskins are then resold to the highest bidder. They are used in cosmetics, skin growth for grafting, cancer treatments and much more. The after life of foreskins is also a multi billion dollar a year industry. Parents are not told about this. There is no informed consent. Certainly the foreskins owner doesn’t have a say in the matter.

- “Every boy born in the US has a $300 coupon attached to his foreskin. All you have to do is cut it off to redeem.”

- Circumcision should only be performed on consenting adults who know all that is entailed.

-What if your son wants his foreskin?

- A lot of men are very angry when they find out the truth and feel very violated. (like my husband.)

- How would you feel if someone cut off your clitoris and labia without asking you? They do it in Africa all the time. We are horrified when little girls are mutilated. Why not when little boys? FGM type one, the most common form of female circumcision, only removes the covering of the clitoris and some of the labia. Those parts directly corrilate to the foreskin on a male penis.

- It causes immense trauma & physical pain to a brand new baby who just had to undergo birth. Often times a baby will suddenly cease crying and so the Doctors say it doesn't hurt them. It does - they are in shock.

- Smegma isn’t bad or gross. It is the Greek word for soap. Women have it too. It helps keep everything clean and healthy. No intact boy should be forcefully retracted just to clean it out. It’s supposed to be there!

- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off. They also stimulate an erection so they “know where to cut.” A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma.

Common myths you may hear from others and even Dr's:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php

Side by side comparison of MGM & FGM
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

[mntnmom]

I'm not a big fan of "my husband said no" as a reason , but in this case you should let him have his way!

Most, if not all of the studies that give "pros" to circ', were poorly done and/or subject to researcher bias, or are so slight that a reputable statistician would ignore them!
My DH and 2 sons are intact, and we've never had a problem. I didn't have to clean an open wound to prevent an infection, and my DH has never had any of the sexual issues that go with a tight foreskin! They all work the way nature intended!!

[ann_of_loxley]

There are no 'pros'.

[Mama2Bug]

There are no benefits to performing painful, cosmetic surgery on a child too young to consent or even understand why he is being tortured.

[ThreeBeans]

There are no pros to mutilation, child abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse on a helpless little baby, far as I can see.

[ThreeBeans]

Originally Posted by armychicmkm

"What do you believe the 'pros' of circumcision might be?"

You hear about health and cleanliness benefits. Things like uncirced males run a greater risk of contracting STD's (something about the foreskin trapping fluids), or if you're not super-diligent with cleaning then the foreskin will get infected. Although my confidence level in medical studies is not the highest.....

Bullhockey.

[LavenderMae]

This is one of those rare black and white issues. There are no pros to circumcision. It is wrong across the board. There are plenty of falsehoods about the foreskin but that's it. Basically circumcision is a whole lotta pain for absolutely no gain.

Oh and good for your dh!!!

[MyBoysBlue]

My signature has a link to the Canadian Children's Rights Council dealing with the Circumcision issue.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by armychicmkm

"What do you believe the 'pros' of circumcision might be?"

You hear about health and cleanliness benefits. Things like uncirced males run a greater risk of contracting STD's (something about the foreskin trapping fluids), or if you're not super-diligent with cleaning then the foreskin will get infected. Although my confidence level in medical studies is not the highest.....

Well think of it this way. Look at the vagina, it is much likely to get fluids "trapped" in there, its much deeper and wetter then the area under the foreskin is. But woman are still perfectly healthy. Think of the foreskin as a simpler version of a vagina. Think about how you keep clean, and apply that to your future son (s). You dont need to scrub deep in the vagina with soap, or worry about infections, or higher risks of STIs. Your son will be perfectly healthy, and when he is old enough he can retract his own foreskin.

Its good to see your husbands on board, and know he is certainly is not alone with his opinion. Before coming to this board the only anti-circ advocates that I knew were circumcised men. And I think the younger you go, the more anti-circ that age group tends to be.

[Aliviasmom]

Ya know, you're not going to find any pro-circ stuff here, as other people have said. But why not just err in the side of caution and leave it there. He can cut it later if he wants, but once it's gone, it's gone. Kinda like the "measure twice, cut once" mentality. You can always go shorter, but you can't go longer. And the penis is not one of those organs you want to mess with.

Watch the circ video too. I about threw up when I watched it with the sound off. When I went back to watch it again with the sound on, I could only make it a few seconds.

[Frankly Speaking]

Armychicmkm, I see that you've centered in on your son's rights and that is a laudable stance! However, parents have both rights and responsibilities and you have to weigh the rights of the child against these parental rights and responsibilities. You need to ask some questions to determine which way to go.

(1) Does the child have any condition at birth that requires a circumcision?

(2) Will circumcision confer any definitive benefits on him?

(3) If there are any benefits, can the circumcision be delayed until he has a say in the procedure?

(4) Are there any risks to your son?

(5) Can the decision be deferred until your son can consider the risks?

(6) Do you know without a shadow of a doubt if your son would want to be circumcised?

(7) If your son's circumcision is botched, can you explain the importance of circumcising him?

(8) If you circumcise him and he decides he wants to restore his foreskin, will you fully support him?

(9) If he learns about early impotency and female arousal disorder, can you explain why the risk of these weren't sufficient to not circumcise him?

The answers to these questions should lead you to the right answer. I have faith in you!


Frank
(10) How will you feel if your grandson is not circumcised? Will you still feel confident of your decision to circumcise?

[CorasMama]

MCatLvrMom2A&X:

That's super awesome! Can I please use those?

I'm frequently in chats (irc) with a few very, very pro-circ guys, one of whom says he'd circ any sons purely because he prefers the aesthetics. There's also a couple of pg women in there, who are seeing these debates, and potentially being influenced by them!

It's hard sometimes to make good arguments in irc, because everything is in short bits, not paragraphs. But I love your arguments, and the little "soundbites" would be perfect for the irc chat format.

So may I, pretty please, cut and paste from your post?

[finn'smama]

Originally Posted by armychicmkm

My (future) son's rights are what has me steering away from circ. more than anything else. I'm a farily big believer in making you own decisions and that is a pretty big decision to take away. And DH is making me include "Not to mention I already said no."

Your son's body, his choice! Congrats on your pregnancy

[Magali]

Originally Posted by armychicmkm

Dh and I are expecting our first child and I have been studying up on everything.

He's opposed to circumcising. I've never even thought of it. I understand this is an anti-circ board but I really would like both sides of the argument. Thanx all!

I can't think of one good reason to do it.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Originally Posted by CorasMama

MCatLvrMom2A&X:

That's super awesome! Can I please use those?

I'm frequently in chats (irc) with a few very, very pro-circ guys, one of whom says he'd circ any sons purely because he prefers the aesthetics. There's also a couple of pg women in there, who are seeing these debates, and potentially being influenced by them!

It's hard sometimes to make good arguments in irc, because everything is in short bits, not paragraphs. But I love your arguments, and the little "soundbites" would be perfect for the irc chat format.

So may I, pretty please, cut and paste from your post?

Definatly

[Eben'sMama]

Originally Posted by ThreeBeans

There are no pros to mutilation, child abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse on a helpless little baby, far as I can see.

:

I can't think of any reason why it would ever seem ethical or humane to amputate a perfectly healthy, functional and necessary part of a person's body without his consent.

[kxsiven]

If we are going to talk about circumcision techniques in ancient times then circumcision should be performed with stone knife and circumcision itself should be just a ritual cutting of the very very tip of the foreskin. There is lot of excellent historical books available to those who are interested in knowing how and why different circ techniques have evolved.

[PuppyFluffer]

A NOTE FROM YOUR MODERATOR

Please remember that this is The Case Against Circumcision forum. As such, we don't host discussion in favor of circumcision. It is fine to come here and ask questions about the reasons often given to encourage circumcision such as cleanliness, UTI prevention, HIV prevention etc. We are here to present facts and information about those issues.

I think this discussion serves to educate on the many issues surrounding circumcision.

Please know that we do not host discussion of religious issues. Those matters are beyond the scope of this forum. We are here to discuss and address routine infant circumcision. Please keep to that topic.

PM me with any questions.

Thanks so much!
Karen

[Arduinna]

There is no other side of the argument to me. There are no pros.